Your Oil Rebate Check

[quote]Ren wrote:
its a stupid idea and gives us no viable solution or alternative to high gas and natural oil prices in the long run.

I am NOT a fan of a windfall profits tax. The oil companies micromanage prices so damn well that consumers will end up paying for it anyways.

I would like to see government subsidies and tax breaks repealed, seeing as how every damn quarter oil companies are posting record profits.

And then you could take that money and invest it into alternative fuel/energy solutions, seeing as how the oil companies aren’t.[/quote]

Repealing tax breaks is the same thing any additional tax. There should be no corporate income tax to begin with.

When has the gov’t ever been an efficient investor. You give them that money and they will find many other ways to spend it. Where did all the SS money go? How about the money from the tobacco law suits?

Gov’t doesn’t need to invest in alternatives. When they are really needed the investement will be there, as will the technology. Look at what the free market has given us compared to gov’t efforts. When have they ever produced a usefull domestic technology?

The truth is alternatives are not needed right now. If people want to invest in niche markets go ahead, but gov’t will only cloud market signals and what technologies are actually viable. If a bunch of bureacrats decide what technology to fund we will all be fucked. Their decisions will be political, and if wrong will waste usefull resources and set us back decades.

It’s a pipe dream to think that gov’t has done, or is going to do, anything useful in energy technology. There are only degrees of how much they will get in the way, or number of years they will set us back.

[quote]dhickey wrote:
Ren wrote:
its a stupid idea and gives us no viable solution or alternative to high gas and natural oil prices in the long run.

I am NOT a fan of a windfall profits tax. The oil companies micromanage prices so damn well that consumers will end up paying for it anyways.

I would like to see government subsidies and tax breaks repealed, seeing as how every damn quarter oil companies are posting record profits.

And then you could take that money and invest it into alternative fuel/energy solutions, seeing as how the oil companies aren’t.

Repealing tax breaks is the same thing any additional tax. There should be no corporate income tax to begin with.

When has the gov’t ever been an efficient investor. You give them that money and they will find many other ways to spend it. Where did all the SS money go? How about the money from the tobacco law suits?

Gov’t doesn’t need to invest in alternatives. When they are really needed the investement will be there, as will the technology. Look at what the free market has given us compared to gov’t efforts. When have they ever produced a usefull domestic technology?

The truth is alternatives are not needed right now. If people want to invest in niche markets go ahead, but gov’t will only cloud market signals and what technologies are actually viable. If a bunch of bureacrats decide what technology to fund we will all be fucked. Their decisions will be political, and if wrong will waste usefull resources and set us back decades.

It’s a pipe dream to think that gov’t has done, or is going to do, anything useful in energy technology. There are only degrees of how much they will get in the way, or number of years they will set us back. [/quote]

The best way to invest the money for alternative energy/fuel solutions is to offer funded competitions. Similar to the X-flight, or the military one with the autonomous vehicle.

It is interesting to see how hostile Obama is to the US taking steps to decrease it’s dependence on foreign oil. This transfer of wealth overseas is not good for America.

The Brazilians just found the worlds third largest oil reserve in the deep Atlantic. Noone knows what we could find in American waters but we could find something similar. The democrats are adamant we won’t find anything if we go looking and they are trying everything they can to prevent us from looking. Then the democrats say we can cure our oil crisis by draining the strategic oil reserve.

I really have to wonder whose interests the democrats are looking out for. Because it certainly isn’t the American people.

[quote]Sifu wrote:
I really have to wonder whose interests the democrats are looking out for. Because it certainly isn’t the American people.
[/quote]

Simple. They’re looking out for the interests of the Democratic Party.

Of course, the Republicans are looking out for their own interests too.

Game theory shows that optimum results (loosely speaking) can only be obtained when there are at least three parties involved in a decision and no one party has a majority. So vote Libertarian for Congress.

I’m voting for the first time this election.

On the ballots, does it highlight who’s an incumbent?

I’m going to vote non-incumbent for all things except president.

[quote]Sifu wrote:
It is interesting to see how hostile Obama is to the US taking steps to decrease it’s dependence on foreign oil. This transfer of wealth overseas is not good for America.

The Brazilians just found the worlds third largest oil reserve in the deep Atlantic. Noone knows what we could find in American waters but we could find something similar. The democrats are adamant we won’t find anything if we go looking and they are trying everything they can to prevent us from looking. Then the democrats say we can cure our oil crisis by draining the strategic oil reserve.

I really have to wonder whose interests the democrats are looking out for. Because it certainly isn’t the American people.
[/quote]

And I take it the oil companies would definitely look out for the American people? I mean, its not like they wouldn’t sell the drilled oil in foreign markets if they were getting a better price there…

Oh yes, your Brazilian oil reserve, which would amount to roughly 3 months worth of oil supply for the world. This is the third biggest discovered oil reserve, and the biggest since 2000 (it was found in 2007). Explain to me how drilling is a viable long-term strategy again?

For those who want to see how much oil we have around the States:

http://www.mms.gov/revaldiv/PDFs/2006NationalAssessmentBrochure.pdf

trying to find out where you can see what areas have drilling and exploration leases already.

This a reflection of how fucked up things have become. We’re reaching a point where politicians think they can just grab profits from wherever they want.

[quote]Ren wrote:
And I take it the oil companies would definitely look out for the American people? I mean, its not like they wouldn’t sell the drilled oil in foreign markets if they were getting a better price there…
[/quote]
It doesn’t matter. If it brings down the world price, we all win. If they make more money from the sale of oil to anyone, our domestic investments, mutual funds, 401Ks and pension funds increase.

Also, it is reasonable to assume that cost to sell domestically would be less due to shipping costs. Do you the Saudis import oil?

Define long term. So what if it is a “short term” solution? How does it hurt to drill? Short term stratagies can be beneficial.

That we know of. That’s the point. Why not look for more?

[quote]dhickey wrote:
Ren wrote:
And I take it the oil companies would definitely look out for the American people? I mean, its not like they wouldn’t sell the drilled oil in foreign markets if they were getting a better price there…

It doesn’t matter. If it brings down the world price, we all win. If they make more money from the sale of oil to anyone, our domestic investments, mutual funds, 401Ks and pension funds increase.

Also, it is reasonable to assume that cost to sell domestically would be less due to shipping costs. Do you the Saudis import oil?

Oh yes, your Brazilian oil reserve, which would amount to roughly 3 months worth of oil supply for the world. This is the third biggest discovered oil reserve, and the biggest since 2000 (it was found in 2007). Explain to me how drilling is a viable long-term strategy again?

Define long term. So what if it is a “short term” solution? How does it hurt to drill? Short term stratagies can be beneficial.

For those who want to see how much oil we have around the States:

That we know of. That’s the point. Why not look for more?

[/quote]

That is assuming it affects world oil prices. I suppose it gets really complicated to calculate the effect an increase in domestic oil production could have since it has to be matched against an increase in world demand for oil and any fluctuations in oil production. There is nothing to stop OPEC from lowering the amount of oil they export if the United States increases domestic production.

Besides that, at the end of the day the rest of the world has more oil than us. We can’t help but be dependent on foreign oil when we could never produce more than we demand.

Long Term = a strategy that will half a lasting effect over 10+ years.

Depending on who you talk to drilling wouldn’t even get started for several years, and take 5-10 minimum to have any effect on gas prices.

The only real viable solution to our energy problems is to decrease dependence on oil, domestic and imported.

A solid plan to decrease oil dependence will have a more positive affect than any increase in drilling could hope to provide.

[quote]dhickey wrote:

The truth is alternatives are not needed right now. If people want to invest in niche markets go ahead, but gov’t will only cloud market signals and what technologies are actually viable.

If a bunch of bureacrats decide what technology to fund we will all be fucked. Their decisions will be political, and if wrong will waste usefull resources and set us back decades.
… [/quote]

Just look at ethanol.

[quote]pat wrote:
What a fucking idiot.

Oh yea, hybrids are our way out of this situation. I guess he can make it sound romantic with his lyrical way of speaking and morons will buy in to it hook, line and sinker… But he can go fuck himself, the cocksucker. I more likely shine my dick with a high speed buffer than drive a hybrid. I have one goal for my cars and that horsepower, period. I am not wearing an environmental hairshirt to please a bunch of assholes who made up problems so as to scaring the population into their control…Oh Obama save US!

Brave new world here we come. I can see the signs now.
“Obama Saves”, “Obama loves you”, “One nation under Obama”…

Obama, suck my fucking dick and drop dead asshole![/quote]

So, my guess is that you won’t be voting for Obama? ;D

[quote]Ren wrote:

That is assuming it affects world oil prices. I suppose it gets really complicated to calculate the effect an increase in domestic oil production could have since it has to be matched against an increase in world demand for oil and any fluctuations in oil production. There is nothing to stop OPEC from lowering the amount of oil they export if the United States increases domestic production.
[/quote]
This is ridiculous and has no basis in sound economic principal. It is not complicated and the effect is not reduced by more demand. As a matter of fact us drilling will have more of an effect if demand increases. Who gives a shit what OPEC does. If they want to sell less and make less money go for it. It only makes what we find more valuable. Yet another reason to drill. We have oil in ground that companies are willing to pump. It provides us fuel. It increases domestic product. It increases our pension funds, mutual funds, and 401Ks. It is retarded to keep the american people from benefiting from the oil that is in the ground.

This matters not one bit. This is a world economy and we will always be dependant on companies outside our boarders for things that we cannot economically produce. So what. Other countries are also dependant on companied inside our boarders. It is incredably stupid to pursposely stiffle american companies. For what? What do we gain by not drilling?

American companies will be pumping oil long after we are dead and gone. That meets you definition.

Oh yeah…that’s a good reason not to start. I’m not going to retire for 20-30 yet I am saving for retirement now. What an idiot. I don’t get paid until the end of the month, why would I bother to work now?

this is already happening and will continue without gov’t intervension. Taking profits from oil companies (american people) has no effect on this. Neither does purposely handcuffing americans.

[quote]
A solid plan to decrease oil dependence will have a more positive affect than any increase in drilling could hope to provide.[/quote]
Bull shit, and the gov’t is the last entity we want developing this plan. The free market has been and always will be infinitly more efficeint at this. Plus, why not do both. The gov’t doesn’t have to do anything to get the oil out of the ground. Well exept sit back and collect more in taxes than the companies make in profit. The companies that actually get it out of the ground.

[quote]Ren wrote:

And I take it the oil companies would definitely look out for the American people? I mean, its not like they wouldn’t sell the drilled oil in foreign markets if they were getting a better price there…[/quote]

As stated before it is a world market, and the price is generally dependent on both supply and demand. Increase supply, and price goes down. Reduce supply and the price goes up. It is the most basic of economics.

And since it is a world market, they will simply put it on the market. Although it is cheaper to use it here then to ship it overseas. [quote]

Oh yes, your Brazilian oil reserve, which would amount to roughly 3 months worth of oil supply for the world. This is the third biggest discovered oil reserve, and the biggest since 2000 (it was found in 2007). Explain to me how drilling is a viable long-term strategy again?[/quote]

Simple math shows it will last over a year, but I do grow tired of this faulty argument. It does not matter how long that one source of oil would supply the world because it is not required to. Apply your logic to farms, and really none should be open. I don’t think there is a single farm that even supplies a days worth of food for the earth.

33 billion in Brazil, 10.8 billion in ANWAR, 89 billion off our coasts easily, and the 90 billion in the arctic circle.

Now we are up to 7 years worth of oil.

But the point is that it does not matter, we need to start pumping it out. And we need to still look for more sources out there, and they are out there.

The only way off-shore drilling will have a serious impact is if our total dependence on oil decreases.

Demand will continue to outpace supply, especially with the steady increase in industrialization in developing countries.

My stance is that an expansion of drilling will not have the magical result people expect, and will be a lot less beneficial without a policy that reduces total oil dependence.

[quote] wrote:
My stance is that an expansion of drilling will not have the magical result people expect, and will be a lot less beneficial without a policy that reduces total oil dependence.
[/quote]

How does increasing the supply not benefit anyone? Even if demand increases as we suspect it will the added supply will help meet some of the shortfall had expansion not been undertaken in the first place under that same increase in demand.

I don’t see how any policy will reduce dependence on energy. This would amount to forcing people at gunpoint to not drive, for example.

We don’t need policy. We just need government to recognize property rights and stand out of the way of progress.

[quote]Ren wrote:
The only way off-shore drilling will have a serious impact is if our total dependence on oil decreases.

Demand will continue to outpace supply, especially with the steady increase in industrialization in developing countries.

My stance is that an expansion of drilling will not have the magical result people expect, and will be a lot less beneficial without a policy that reduces total oil dependence.

[/quote]

We don’t need policy. We didn’t need policy to discover oil or natural gas or electricity. The free market gave us every energy source we have. There is absolutly no reason to beleive the free market will not continue to provide us with the energy we need. Just get out of way.

[quote]Ren wrote:
The only way off-shore drilling will have a serious impact is if our total dependence on oil decreases.

Demand will continue to outpace supply, especially with the steady increase in industrialization in developing countries.

My stance is that an expansion of drilling will not have the magical result people expect, and will be a lot less beneficial without a policy that reduces total oil dependence.

[/quote]

This isn’t magic, this is math.

Demand will out pace supply only if we do not drill.

And why does everything have to be one or the other? If we look at an oil field, why do we suddenly ignore all the others?

Right now there is enough oil being produced to cover supply. I know, you heard we are using more then we are pumping, and while that was temporarily true, that is not true now.

Supplies are coming online fairly fast right now, and that will help push prices down. (And whoever is in the White house will take credit for it.) But there could be a problem if we do not open these places up for drilling.

You want to move off oil, fine. But we are still going to need oil until we find something else that will work.

There really is only one solution. Go New-Q-Ler. Start building plants now.

Once we have the cheap abundant and clean energy of New-Q-Ler, then electric cars will become viable. Right now if we went electric, the grid could not handle it. It is the next step in our technology, and we are 30 years behind because of ignorance and lies.

But until we make the change over, we are going to need oil in abundance.

And people just like you are standing in the way, as always. “Don’t drill here, don’t drill there, no refineries, no nuke plants. Oh gee why are energy prices so high? Must be Bush’s fault.”

Are you actually interested in solutions or just roadblocks?

[quote]hedo wrote:
The market is betting on increased supplies coming online…mostly from the US.

The prices just seen were a bubble and it burst. Oil will stabilize at about $80 a barrel after the election.

lixy wrote:
If it ever reaches $80, ever again, I will publicly eat my underwear.

The third world car-shopping frenzy has just started.[/quote]

Oil broke below $120 (From a high $147.27)

Just reminding everyone - lixy promised to eat underwear @ $80.

[quote]The Mage wrote:
Ren wrote:
The only way off-shore drilling will have a serious impact is if our total dependence on oil decreases.

Demand will continue to outpace supply, especially with the steady increase in industrialization in developing countries.

My stance is that an expansion of drilling will not have the magical result people expect, and will be a lot less beneficial without a policy that reduces total oil dependence.

This isn’t magic, this is math.

Demand will out pace supply only if we do not drill.

And why does everything have to be one or the other? If we look at an oil field, why do we suddenly ignore all the others?

Right now there is enough oil being produced to cover supply. I know, you heard we are using more then we are pumping, and while that was temporarily true, that is not true now.

Supplies are coming online fairly fast right now, and that will help push prices down. (And whoever is in the White house will take credit for it.) But there could be a problem if we do not open these places up for drilling.

You want to move off oil, fine. But we are still going to need oil until we find something else that will work.

There really is only one solution. Go New-Q-Ler. Start building plants now.

Once we have the cheap abundant and clean energy of New-Q-Ler, then electric cars will become viable. Right now if we went electric, the grid could not handle it. It is the next step in our technology, and we are 30 years behind because of ignorance and lies.

But until we make the change over, we are going to need oil in abundance.

And people just like you are standing in the way, as always. “Don’t drill here, don’t drill there, no refineries, no nuke plants. Oh gee why are energy prices so high? Must be Bush’s fault.”

Are you actually interested in solutions or just roadblocks? [/quote]

I’ll be honest and say there was a point when I was adamant against drilling, now I am open to it.

Sell leases at MARKET rate (which I am guessing would be higher now because oil is so profitable?) Let them start their exploration. I prefer just Alaska and the Gulf to be drilled, but that doesn’t mean you can’t explore the pacific and atlantic OCS. We have an estimate of how much oil and natural gas is in each, but we might get lucky and hit a big reserve. If they find anything, and I would hope most of it is economically recoverable (a tricky phrase if there ever was one), get the drilling platform in there, let’s get another refinery or 2 in place. Hold them accountable for environmental issues that might occur (essentially hit them hard if they cause spills and such).

So, now we can increase supply…in say 10 years. good start. The next thing to do is look for ways to MAXIMIZE the impact this will have. And you do this by decreasing total dependence on oil and natural gas.

Promote the production of hybrids (as a start, not an end), encourage alternative energy sources (a very promising one is the solar panels that heat water to steam to drive turbines and is super efficient, cost? damn cheap). Etc.

If we can give tax breaks to ppl buying hummers, we can give it to ppl doing things to reduce our use of fossil fuels.

dhickey wants to talk about how beneficial it is for the oil companies making records profits to increase their stocks (hell, most of their record profits are going into buying dividends and other measures to make their stock price go up in the first place). Even though the vast majority of Americans won’t actually see any benefits from that. I like to consider the MASSIVE market for alternative energy, which the US has a chance to become a world leader in. Now we are talking about some serious job creation and economic benefits.

So now that I have conceded, and said let’s drill. What are your thoughts on the BIG picture? (if drilling is your idea of the big picture then we’re screwed).

also, and I don’t know if anyone has these stats.

But how much of the currently leased land has oil on it?

How much exploration has been done on these lands already?

and how much discovered oil that was not economically recoverable back when oil was cheap is viable fro drilling now?

Just asking this after I found this article about an oil reserve in North Dakota: