[quote]therajraj wrote:
I want to know what is the ULTIMATE source of morality according to you?
Do you think morality is universal?[/quote]
You’re really trying to get me to say “God” aren’t you? Well if your looking for ultimate sources, God or something with ‘God like’ powers would necessarily be the source or utimate dependency, depending on how you look at it.
The top moral imperatives are universal. That doesn’t mean that there isn’t sociological manipulation of imperatives. But the basics are universal. One cannot argue that the most morally repugnant shit is ‘moral’ just because their local society thinks it’s fine and dandy. Slavery, for instance, was always wrong, despite societal acceptance of the practice. [/quote]
That’s the point.
If you believe that morality is handed down from god you must demonstrate:
Okay another random question for the die hard Christians, didn’t want to start a new thread since this one started the same way.
Do you reject the idea of there possibly being another planet in the universe with life comparable to humans on it? Yes/No and maybe a 1 sentence Why. This isn’t the question yet but I have a follow up depending on the answer to this.
[quote]sufiandy wrote:
Okay another random question for the die hard Christians, didn’t want to start a new thread since this one started the same way.
Do you reject the idea of there possibly being another planet in the universe with life comparable to humans on it? Yes/No and maybe a 1 sentence Why. This isn’t the question yet but I have a follow up depending on the answer to this.[/quote]
There are probably beings from other planets. The probability is high because the universe is so large. The vatican already stated that if they exist, then they either:
1: are non-fallen material beings (which is why they don’t want to get too close)
2: fallen like us, therefore were also redeemed through Christ when he came to them.
[quote]therajraj wrote:
I want to know what is the ULTIMATE source of morality according to you?
Do you think morality is universal?[/quote]
You’re really trying to get me to say “God” aren’t you? Well if your looking for ultimate sources, God or something with ‘God like’ powers would necessarily be the source or utimate dependency, depending on how you look at it.
The top moral imperatives are universal. That doesn’t mean that there isn’t sociological manipulation of imperatives. But the basics are universal. One cannot argue that the most morally repugnant shit is ‘moral’ just because their local society thinks it’s fine and dandy. Slavery, for instance, was always wrong, despite societal acceptance of the practice. [/quote]
That’s the point.
If you believe that morality is handed down from god you must demonstrate:
God Exists
he is handing down morals to us
[/quote]
Nobody has to demonstrate God exists. He already demonstrated it. Open your eyes. Just because the proof isn’t good enough for you doesn’t mean there is no proof.
His morals were handed to us through Christ. It is called the scriptures.
nobody can show you God exists with a lab experiment. Lab experiments are only a means of verification of something that was already thought to be true. You cannot demonstrate God in a lab because if you could that being you demonstrated would not be God. I can prove to you the idea of God exists and that the idea of God not existing would be illogical. You seem to think that in order for someone to prove you something, we have to use proof like we would in a courtroom. God already proved his existence but you won’t accept it.
[quote]LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:
Yes, our beliefs are shaped by experience.
I could have been born in Iran and still possibly have become an atheist, too - albeit, a less vocal one.[/quote]
No they’re not. Their only influenced by experience. They are not completely shaped. Your beliefs are far more influenced by beings you can’t see. You will not know this because you probably think beings you can’t see don’t exist. This is why you’re in trouble.
Nobody has to demonstrate God exists. He already demonstrated it. Open your eyes. Just because the proof isn’t good enough for you doesn’t mean there is no proof.[/quote]
No you open YOUR eyes.
The only evidence for Christ are 2nd hand textual accounts of miracles. You must have an extremely low standard of evidence to accept that as ‘proof’
[quote]fibroblaster wrote:
His morals were handed to us through Christ. It is called the scriptures.[/quote]
You have to prove the Bible is the word of god first. People have been trying to do this for centuries to no avail.
[quote]fibroblaster wrote:
nobody can show you God exists with a lab experiment. Lab experiments are only a means of verification of something that was already thought to be true. You cannot demonstrate God in a lab because if you could that being you demonstrated would not be God. I can prove to you the idea of God exists and that the idea of God not existing would be illogical. You seem to think that in order for someone to prove you something, we have to use proof like we would in a courtroom. God already proved his existence but you won’t accept it.
[/quote]
God not existing is only illogical to YOU.
Please tell me, how has god “already proved his existence?”
[quote]therajraj wrote:
I want to know what is the ULTIMATE source of morality according to you?
Do you think morality is universal?[/quote]
You’re really trying to get me to say “God” aren’t you? Well if your looking for ultimate sources, God or something with ‘God like’ powers would necessarily be the source or utimate dependency, depending on how you look at it.
The top moral imperatives are universal. That doesn’t mean that there isn’t sociological manipulation of imperatives. But the basics are universal. One cannot argue that the most morally repugnant shit is ‘moral’ just because their local society thinks it’s fine and dandy. Slavery, for instance, was always wrong, despite societal acceptance of the practice. [/quote]
That’s the point.
If you believe that morality is handed down from god you must demonstrate:
God Exists
he is handing down morals to us
[/quote]
All I have to do is demostrate he exists, the rest of it is implied. For the existence part, I rely on the cosmological argument from the point of contingency. The point of contingency is the most important part or that as it essentially replaces causal relations with dependency, which is actually a causal relationship, but for the layman causation implies time, which is removed from contingency. It’s an argument form as a well as an argument in it self.
Now the argument ends in a Necessary Being…God is then inferred, from their. But for a Necessary Being to be what it must be, definitionally, then it must have at least one God-like property which makes the inference quite strong.
From that point, ‘morals’ is just a part of the causal chain, so it’s no big whoop.
But God doesn’t hand down morals, morals exist and we tap into them.
Nobody has to demonstrate God exists. He already demonstrated it. Open your eyes. Just because the proof isn’t good enough for you doesn’t mean there is no proof.[/quote]
No you open YOUR eyes.
The only evidence for Christ are 2nd hand textual accounts of miracles. You must have an extremely low standard of evidence to accept that as ‘proof’
[quote]fibroblaster wrote:
His morals were handed to us through Christ. It is called the scriptures.[/quote]
You have to prove the Bible is the word of god first. People have been trying to do this for centuries to no avail.
[quote]fibroblaster wrote:
nobody can show you God exists with a lab experiment. Lab experiments are only a means of verification of something that was already thought to be true. You cannot demonstrate God in a lab because if you could that being you demonstrated would not be God. I can prove to you the idea of God exists and that the idea of God not existing would be illogical. You seem to think that in order for someone to prove you something, we have to use proof like we would in a courtroom. God already proved his existence but you won’t accept it.
[/quote]
God not existing is only illogical to YOU.
Please tell me, how has god “already proved his existence?”
[/quote]
So when you say “You guys” you’re lumping me in with the likes of this ^^ or tirib… Do not make those assumptions, WE are nothing alike.
Ask yourselves what could make someone so insane that he would believe what Christians believe and do what Christians do. What do you fools think Jesus meant when he said we are “not of this world” and “born from above”? We don’t belong to this world because we have been adopted as sons of God at Baptism. But instead of joining this happiness, YOUR JEALOUS BECAUSE YOUR PARENTS DIDN’T DO THE SAME FOR YOU. So you become extremely bitter about the world, arguing for no reason then to be right. Whereas I argue because I also want you who are my brothers to have the same happiness. I am not controlled or brainwashed because if I were, then I would succumb to this world’s ideas. I am not afraid of humiliation, because I always know God is watching me try to herd is his lost sheep.
The vast majority of christians are only christians due to social indoctrination and not because of any rational decision or intelligent thought on their part.
How about this?
[/quote]
Same with ANY set of beliefs including atheism. This is how people were raised, which includes being ignored by their parents. So what’s the beef? Oh yeah, you don’t want to refer to yourself as having had a similar set of experiences and therefore, not be in a position to be judgmental…
[quote]fibroblaster wrote: Ask yourselves what could make someone so insane that he would believe what Christians believe >>>[/quote]Clearly you have not studied Mormonism. They could much more effectively use an argument like this. [quote]fibroblaster wrote:<<< What do you fools think Jesus meant >>>[/quote] when He said "but whosoever shall say [to his brother], Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire. [quote]fibroblaster wrote:<<< “not of this world” and “born from above”? We don’t belong to this world because we have been adopted as sons of God >>>[/quote]this is true. [quote]fibroblaster wrote:<<< But instead of joining this happiness, YOUR JEALOUS BECAUSE YOUR PARENTS DIDN’T DO THE SAME FOR YOU. >>>[/quote]Absolutely false [quote]fibroblaster wrote:<<< So you become extremely bitter about the world, arguing for no reason then to be right. >>>[/quote]They argue to convince themselves that they are not accountable to the God they cannot avoid everywhere.[quote]fibroblaster wrote:<<< Whereas I argue because I also want you who are my brothers to have the same happiness. >>>[/quote]The gospel ain’t about “happiness”. It’s about resurrection and obediance in that order. The apostles weren’t too happy bein stoned and whipped and imprisoned. They DID have joy though. [quote]fibroblaster wrote:<<< I am not controlled or brainwashed because if I were, then I would succumb to this world’s ideas. I am not afraid of humiliation, because I always know God is watching me try to herd in his lost sheep. [/quote]I could be wrong, but I sense that you mean this despite being totally screwed up in most of your goofball theology.
[quote]therajraj wrote:
I want to know what is the ULTIMATE source of morality according to you?
Do you think morality is universal?[/quote]
Humans are moral animals. The earliest discussions of morality in the West were due to Aristotle in his Nicomachean Ethics (ca. 400 BC.) and well pre-date Christianity. That you don’t know this means you probably don’t know enough to be having this discussion…
Greek and later Roman Philosophy was heavily concerned with morality and ethics. This is in distinct contrast to Jewish Theology in which such discussions rarely arose. Indeed, one of the few bona fide jokes in the Bible is Jesus ribbing his Roman converts for their preoccupation with morality. As Christianity moved throughout the Roman Empire, it became more thoroughly imbued with Roman moral teachings. Eventually, the old Roman vices even became sins (the seven deadly sins) which is not really supported any place in the Bible. Biblical teachings in the Middle Ages were brought into service to discuss Aristotle’s ethical system, but there is no such list of these, vs. transgressions of divine law (such as a breech of the Ten Commandments which, incidentally does not prohibit killing people at all, just murdering them in cold blood – it’s fine if they have done something illegal.)
EVERY civilization has rules for how to treat the weak, foolish, old, very young, infirmed etc. These are morality.
How do you treat that elderly sick aunt? If you lack these or something like them, then you are pretty close to being a monster. There is no a priori reason that they must come from religion and in the West certainly did not (who ever heard of Aphrodite passing moral judgment on sinners?) This is a later innovation and one that is of interest to those of us who are students of the history of ideas. Mostly because of the way that Christian Theologians tried to tied it into religious teachings.
[quote]fibroblaster wrote: Ask yourselves what could make someone so insane that he would believe what Christians believe >>>[/quote]Clearly you have not studied Mormonism. They could much more effectively use an argument like this. [quote]fibroblaster wrote:<<< What do you fools think Jesus meant >>>[/quote] when He said "but whosoever shall say [to his brother], Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire. [quote]fibroblaster wrote:<<< “not of this world” and “born from above”? We don’t belong to this world because we have been adopted as sons of God >>>[/quote]this is true. [quote]fibroblaster wrote:<<< But instead of joining this happiness, YOUR JEALOUS BECAUSE YOUR PARENTS DIDN’T DO THE SAME FOR YOU. >>>[/quote]Absolutely false [quote]fibroblaster wrote:<<< So you become extremely bitter about the world, arguing for no reason then to be right. >>>[/quote]They argue to convince themselves that they are not accountable to the God they cannot avoid everywhere.[quote]fibroblaster wrote:<<< Whereas I argue because I also want you who are my brothers to have the same happiness. >>>[/quote]The gospel ain’t about “happiness”. It’s about resurrection and obediance in that order. The apostles weren’t too happy bein stoned and whipped and imprisoned. They DID have joy though. [quote]fibroblaster wrote:<<< I am not controlled or brainwashed because if I were, then I would succumb to this world’s ideas. I am not afraid of humiliation, because I always know God is watching me try to herd in his lost sheep. [/quote]I could be wrong, but I sense that you mean this despite being totally screwed up in most of your goofball theology.
[/quote]
At our pace today, more mormons will inherit the kingdom than Catholics. And Catholicicism is the one truth. How sad is that?
[quote]fibroblaster wrote: Ask yourselves what could make someone so insane that he would believe what Christians believe >>>[/quote]Clearly you have not studied Mormonism. They could much more effectively use an argument like this. [quote]fibroblaster wrote:<<< What do you fools think Jesus meant >>>[/quote] when He said "but whosoever shall say [to his brother], Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire. [quote]fibroblaster wrote:<<< “not of this world” and “born from above”? We don’t belong to this world because we have been adopted as sons of God >>>[/quote]this is true. [quote]fibroblaster wrote:<<< But instead of joining this happiness, YOUR JEALOUS BECAUSE YOUR PARENTS DIDN’T DO THE SAME FOR YOU. >>>[/quote]Absolutely false [quote]fibroblaster wrote:<<< So you become extremely bitter about the world, arguing for no reason then to be right. >>>[/quote]They argue to convince themselves that they are not accountable to the God they cannot avoid everywhere.[quote]fibroblaster wrote:<<< Whereas I argue because I also want you who are my brothers to have the same happiness. >>>[/quote]The gospel ain’t about “happiness”. It’s about resurrection and obediance in that order. The apostles weren’t too happy bein stoned and whipped and imprisoned. They DID have joy though. [quote]fibroblaster wrote:<<< I am not controlled or brainwashed because if I were, then I would succumb to this world’s ideas. I am not afraid of humiliation, because I always know God is watching me try to herd in his lost sheep. [/quote]I could be wrong, but I sense that you mean this despite being totally screwed up in most of your goofball theology.
[/quote]
Listen, most atheists didn’t choose it. And what is there left to do after atheism? How does an atheist choose the right religion if all of them point different paths? There are more atheists who don’t wan’t to identify with Christianity, because it is the largest religion in america, and they are upset that their parents who loved them didn’t give the this important memo growing up. Imagine being or an atheist, being ridiculed by your peers that you are going to hell because you don’t believe in God? It is traumatic. So they get turned off.
Nobody has to demonstrate God exists. He already demonstrated it. Open your eyes. Just because the proof isn’t good enough for you doesn’t mean there is no proof.[/quote]
No you open YOUR eyes.
The only evidence for Christ are 2nd hand textual accounts of miracles. You must have an extremely low standard of evidence to accept that as ‘proof’
[quote]fibroblaster wrote:
His morals were handed to us through Christ. It is called the scriptures.[/quote]
You have to prove the Bible is the word of god first. People have been trying to do this for centuries to no avail.
[quote]fibroblaster wrote:
nobody can show you God exists with a lab experiment. Lab experiments are only a means of verification of something that was already thought to be true. You cannot demonstrate God in a lab because if you could that being you demonstrated would not be God. I can prove to you the idea of God exists and that the idea of God not existing would be illogical. You seem to think that in order for someone to prove you something, we have to use proof like we would in a courtroom. God already proved his existence but you won’t accept it.
[/quote]
God not existing is only illogical to YOU.
Please tell me, how has god “already proved his existence?”
[/quote]
Tell me, If the cosmological argument can serve as an indirect proof of existence of God [meaning if God does not exist we run into a contradiction] will you except it? Others mentioned arguments as well. not surprisingly, they aren’t good enough for you. no argument can convince an atheist due to him acting as the supreme judge of the soundness of the argument itself.
[quote]fibroblaster wrote: Ask yourselves what could make someone so insane that he would believe what Christians believe >>>[/quote]Clearly you have not studied Mormonism. They could much more effectively use an argument like this. [quote]fibroblaster wrote:<<< What do you fools think Jesus meant >>>[/quote] when He said "but whosoever shall say [to his brother], Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire. [quote]fibroblaster wrote:<<< “not of this world” and “born from above”? We don’t belong to this world because we have been adopted as sons of God >>>[/quote]this is true. [quote]fibroblaster wrote:<<< But instead of joining this happiness, YOUR JEALOUS BECAUSE YOUR PARENTS DIDN’T DO THE SAME FOR YOU. >>>[/quote]Absolutely false [quote]fibroblaster wrote:<<< So you become extremely bitter about the world, arguing for no reason then to be right. >>>[/quote]They argue to convince themselves that they are not accountable to the God they cannot avoid everywhere.[quote]fibroblaster wrote:<<< Whereas I argue because I also want you who are my brothers to have the same happiness. >>>[/quote]The gospel ain’t about “happiness”. It’s about resurrection and obediance in that order. The apostles weren’t too happy bein stoned and whipped and imprisoned. They DID have joy though. [quote]fibroblaster wrote:<<< I am not controlled or brainwashed because if I were, then I would succumb to this world’s ideas. I am not afraid of humiliation, because I always know God is watching me try to herd in his lost sheep. [/quote]I could be wrong, but I sense that you mean this despite being totally screwed up in most of your goofball theology.
[/quote]
Also Mr. Tri, look up the greek rendition for “fool” and see if it is the same word used in the original greek text jesus said.
Nobody has to demonstrate God exists. He already demonstrated it. Open your eyes. Just because the proof isn’t good enough for you doesn’t mean there is no proof.[/quote]
No you open YOUR eyes.
The only evidence for Christ are 2nd hand textual accounts of miracles. You must have an extremely low standard of evidence to accept that as ‘proof’
[quote]fibroblaster wrote:
His morals were handed to us through Christ. It is called the scriptures.[/quote]
You have to prove the Bible is the word of god first. People have been trying to do this for centuries to no avail.
[quote]fibroblaster wrote:
nobody can show you God exists with a lab experiment. Lab experiments are only a means of verification of something that was already thought to be true. You cannot demonstrate God in a lab because if you could that being you demonstrated would not be God. I can prove to you the idea of God exists and that the idea of God not existing would be illogical. You seem to think that in order for someone to prove you something, we have to use proof like we would in a courtroom. God already proved his existence but you won’t accept it.
[/quote]
God not existing is only illogical to YOU.
Please tell me, how has god “already proved his existence?”
[/quote]
Either the scriptures are true or they aren’t. If they are true then I’m right, if they are false, you are still not necessarily right. Do you actually think Christians think that God took a pen and wrote the scriptures? The scriptures are likened to a woman. If you want to love the woman, you have to undress her. The scriptures are clothed in mystery, and unless you possess wisdom they will look like nothing more than a fairy tale. Seek and you’ll find. Although if you choose to purposely not seek, how will you find? If you try with all your might to not hear God’s words, you will ignore them and he will let you.
[quote]fibroblaster wrote: Ask yourselves what could make someone so insane that he would believe what Christians believe >>>[/quote]Clearly you have not studied Mormonism. They could much more effectively use an argument like this. [quote]fibroblaster wrote:<<< What do you fools think Jesus meant >>>[/quote] when He said "but whosoever shall say [to his brother], Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire. [quote]fibroblaster wrote:<<< “not of this world” and “born from above”? We don’t belong to this world because we have been adopted as sons of God >>>[/quote]this is true. [quote]fibroblaster wrote:<<< But instead of joining this happiness, YOUR JEALOUS BECAUSE YOUR PARENTS DIDN’T DO THE SAME FOR YOU. >>>[/quote]Absolutely false [quote]fibroblaster wrote:<<< So you become extremely bitter about the world, arguing for no reason then to be right. >>>[/quote]They argue to convince themselves that they are not accountable to the God they cannot avoid everywhere.[quote]fibroblaster wrote:<<< Whereas I argue because I also want you who are my brothers to have the same happiness. >>>[/quote]The gospel ain’t about “happiness”. It’s about resurrection and obediance in that order. The apostles weren’t too happy bein stoned and whipped and imprisoned. They DID have joy though. [quote]fibroblaster wrote:<<< I am not controlled or brainwashed because if I were, then I would succumb to this world’s ideas. I am not afraid of humiliation, because I always know God is watching me try to herd in his lost sheep. [/quote]I could be wrong, but I sense that you mean this despite being totally screwed up in most of your goofball theology.
[/quote]
Listen, most atheists didn’t choose it. And what is there left to do after atheism? How does an atheist choose the right religion if all of them point different paths? There are more atheists who don’t wan’t to identify with Christianity, because it is the largest religion in america, and they are upset that their parents who loved them didn’t give the this important memo growing up. Imagine being or an atheist, being ridiculed by your peers that you are going to hell because you don’t believe in God? It is traumatic. So they get turned off.[/quote]
Very true but not sure what you meant about this part… “they are upset that their parents who loved them didn’t give the this important memo growing up”
All I have to do is demostrate he exists, the rest of it is implied. [/quote]
No it’s not
[quote]pat wrote:
For the existence part, I rely on the cosmological argument from the point of contingency. The point of contingency is the most important part or that as it essentially replaces causal relations with dependency, which is actually a causal relationship, but for the layman causation implies time, which is removed from contingency. It’s an argument form as a well as an argument in it self.
Now the argument ends in a Necessary Being…God is then inferred, from their. But for a Necessary Being to be what it must be, definitionally, then it must have at least one God-like property which makes the inference quite strong.
From that point, ‘morals’ is just a part of the causal chain, so it’s no big whoop.
But God doesn’t hand down morals, morals exist and we tap into them.[/quote]
The cosmological argument is flawed and has several criticisms. You really need to stop peddling it.