[quote]pat wrote:
If you are claiming moral relativism, you necessarily have to prove that what is intrinsically evil, can be construed as not evil depending on the humanity your dealing with. [/quote]
I see what You did there.
I was going to make a counter-argument, but I want to see what sufiandy comes up with.
[quote]ranengin wrote:
[quote]Sloth wrote:
Possible I would’ve been a slave owner if I had been born to a plantation owner, too. [/quote]
Then possibly the vast majority of christians are only christians due to societal brainwashing and not because of any rational decision on their part?
[/quote]
Oh brother.
[quote]Oleena wrote:
I remember walking into my old Church with friends after starting the question its beliefs. It was eerie hearing 2-5 year old children singing the bible songs that I grew up loving. Suddenly, instead of thinking “They’re so precious!” it crossed my mind “Holy shit we start young. We’re singing this belief system by heart before we can pronounce most words. This is basically brainwashing.”
However, the actual definition of brainwashing implies intentional abuse. So, no, religions are not brainwashing their young for the most part. They’re just programming them.[/quote]
Every parent imposes their way of thinking on the offspring. It doesn’t matter what you believe, you bring you kids up on their beliefs. But the notion that people don’t think about their faith and are only operating as robots is a false idea, but one I am sure you would truly like to be true.
Your weak grasp on the the stuff of faith tells me there wasn’t a whole lot of belief to question in the first place. Your tendency to run from the conversation becomes to intricate of complex tells me your current ‘beliefs’ aren’t that terribly well thought out. Or perhaps you have a hard time articulating them?
Tell me, what do you believe and why?
[quote]pat wrote:
[quote]sufiandy wrote:
[quote]pat wrote:
Don’t we have this conversation already?
No morality is not a human construct, nor is it relative. For morality to be relative you have to be able to justify evil, not matter how evil it is. Since, nobody is able to do that, it lends credibility to the fact that it is not relative. No matter how hard you try, you can make a wrong, right.[/quote]
Why do we have to be able to justify evil? And in our history people have justified it, we just disagree with them which is kind of the whole point to it being relative.[/quote]
If you are claiming moral relativism, you necessarily have to prove that what is intrinsically evil, can be construed as not evil depending on the humanity your dealing with. [/quote]
Since when is that proof required for moral relativism? We don’t know what is truly good or evil.
why is this thread aimed ONLY at die hard Christians?
[quote]Grneyes wrote:
why is this thread aimed ONLY at die hard Christians? [/quote]
Because the other kind of Christian is ‘brainwashed’ by pop culture.
[quote]ranengin wrote:
To the die hard Christians here at T-Nation…
Your “internal moral compass” has been set by your environment and personal experiences.
If you agree with this statement, do you agree that you would most likely be a Muslim if you had been born and raised in Iran?[/quote]
One could also argue that your internal moral compass was put there by God. You should read about the experiences of feral children.
[quote]DBCooper wrote:
[quote]ranengin wrote:
To the die hard Christians here at T-Nation…
Your “internal moral compass” has been set by your environment and personal experiences.
If you agree with this statement, do you agree that you would most likely be a Muslim if you had been born and raised in Iran?[/quote]
One could also argue that your internal moral compass was put there by God. You should read about the experiences of feral children.[/quote]
[quote]pat wrote:
[quote]Oleena wrote:
I remember walking into my old Church with friends after starting the question its beliefs. It was eerie hearing 2-5 year old children singing the bible songs that I grew up loving. Suddenly, instead of thinking “They’re so precious!” it crossed my mind “Holy shit we start young. We’re singing this belief system by heart before we can pronounce most words. This is basically brainwashing.”
However, the actual definition of brainwashing implies intentional abuse. So, no, religions are not brainwashing their young for the most part. They’re just programming them.[/quote]
Every parent imposes their way of thinking on the offspring. It doesn’t matter what you believe, you bring you kids up on their beliefs. But the notion that people don’t think about their faith and are only operating as robots is a false idea, but one I am sure you would truly like to be true.
Your weak grasp on the the stuff of faith tells me there wasn’t a whole lot of belief to question in the first place. Your tendency to run from the conversation becomes to intricate of complex tells me your current ‘beliefs’ aren’t that terribly well thought out. Or perhaps you have a hard time articulating them?
Tell me, what do you believe and why?[/quote]
We’ve been over this. I believe that if I stick my wet finger in a working socket I’ll get shocked, if I jump up on earth I’ll come down, if I’m functioning normally and I eat a steak tonight I’ll crap it out sometime in the next 48 hours, and if I stop eating or drinking indefinitely, I’ll die. Why? Because it’s never failed to happen and it’s been observed without fail by my own eyes.
You can go ahead and make up a bunch of scenarios where the above aren’t true, but I know you believe it every bit as much as I do. Otherwise we wouldn’t be having this discussion.
Alright guys, who’s going to take the first hit?
[quote]DBCooper wrote:
[quote]ranengin wrote:
To the die hard Christians here at T-Nation…
Your “internal moral compass” has been set by your environment and personal experiences.
If you agree with this statement, do you agree that you would most likely be a Muslim if you had been born and raised in Iran?[/quote]
One could also argue that your internal moral compass was put there by God. You should read about the experiences of feral children.[/quote]
[quote]Grneyes wrote:
why is this thread aimed ONLY at die hard Christians? [/quote]
Because christian die hards (that REALLY like to argue) are a dime a dozen here.
If I had said Hindu die hards, no one would have shown up to the “party”.
[quote]DBCooper wrote:
[quote]ranengin wrote:
To the die hard Christians here at T-Nation…
Your “internal moral compass” has been set by your environment and personal experiences.
If you agree with this statement, do you agree that you would most likely be a Muslim if you had been born and raised in Iran?[/quote]
One could also argue that your internal moral compass was put there by God. You should read about the experiences of feral children.[/quote]
And god mostly puts racist moral compasses in the children of racists just for shits and giggles.
[quote]pat wrote:
[quote]ranengin wrote:
[quote]Sloth wrote:
Possible I would’ve been a slave owner if I had been born to a plantation owner, too. [/quote]
Then possibly the vast majority of christians are only christians due to societal brainwashing and not because of any rational decision on their part?
[/quote]
Oh brother.[/quote]
And yet you too would most likely be a muslim if you had been born and raised in Iran.
[quote]sufiandy wrote:There is a high probability that Sloth would not be Christian/Catholic if born and raised in Iran.[/quote]It’s an absolute certainty that Sloth was born exactly where, at precisely the microsecond and with the comprehensively detailed genetic sequence decreed by God from all eternity. Children are influenced by their upbringing? UNBELIEVABLE!! How could I have missed that. God decreed that too.
[quote]Tiribulus wrote:
[quote]sufiandy wrote:There is a high probability that Sloth would not be Christian/Catholic if born and raised in Iran.[/quote]It’s an absolute certainty that Sloth was born exactly where, at precisely the microsecond and with the comprehensively detailed genetic sequence decreed by God from all eternity. Children are influenced by their upbringing? UNBELIEVABLE!! How could I have missed that. God decreed that too.
[/quote]
Could this be the beginnings of a free will argument shit storm?
[quote]sufiandy wrote:
[quote]pat wrote:
[quote]sufiandy wrote:
[quote]pat wrote:
Don’t we have this conversation already?
No morality is not a human construct, nor is it relative. For morality to be relative you have to be able to justify evil, not matter how evil it is. Since, nobody is able to do that, it lends credibility to the fact that it is not relative. No matter how hard you try, you can make a wrong, right.[/quote]
Why do we have to be able to justify evil? And in our history people have justified it, we just disagree with them which is kind of the whole point to it being relative.[/quote]
If you are claiming moral relativism, you necessarily have to prove that what is intrinsically evil, can be construed as not evil depending on the humanity your dealing with. [/quote]
Since when is that proof required for moral relativism? We don’t know what is truly good or evil.[/quote]
Because its a claim? If you make a claim the burden of proof belongs to you to prove it. However, case-in-point, since you cannot define ‘good’ and ‘evil’, it proves it is not a human construct. If humans invented it, we’d know what it is.
Which also goes to the bigger point that we, humans, don’t actually invent anything, we only discover and manipulate that which is already there.
On that basis alone, moral relativism is debunked.
[quote]Oleena wrote:
[quote]pat wrote:
[quote]Oleena wrote:
I remember walking into my old Church with friends after starting the question its beliefs. It was eerie hearing 2-5 year old children singing the bible songs that I grew up loving. Suddenly, instead of thinking “They’re so precious!” it crossed my mind “Holy shit we start young. We’re singing this belief system by heart before we can pronounce most words. This is basically brainwashing.”
However, the actual definition of brainwashing implies intentional abuse. So, no, religions are not brainwashing their young for the most part. They’re just programming them.[/quote]
Every parent imposes their way of thinking on the offspring. It doesn’t matter what you believe, you bring you kids up on their beliefs. But the notion that people don’t think about their faith and are only operating as robots is a false idea, but one I am sure you would truly like to be true.
Your weak grasp on the the stuff of faith tells me there wasn’t a whole lot of belief to question in the first place. Your tendency to run from the conversation becomes to intricate of complex tells me your current ‘beliefs’ aren’t that terribly well thought out. Or perhaps you have a hard time articulating them?
Tell me, what do you believe and why?[/quote]
We’ve been over this. I believe that if I stick my wet finger in a working socket I’ll get shocked, if I jump up on earth I’ll come down, if I’m functioning normally and I eat a steak tonight I’ll crap it out sometime in the next 48 hours, and if I stop eating or drinking indefinitely, I’ll die. Why? Because it’s never failed to happen and it’s been observed without fail by my own eyes.
You can go ahead and make up a bunch of scenarios where the above aren’t true, but I know you believe it every bit as much as I do. Otherwise we wouldn’t be having this discussion.[/quote]
That’s the end all be all of reality to you? So, if you cannot experience it through your senses, it does not exist? Sure we can make scenarios where the above isn’t true. If we turn the power off to the outlet, you won’t be shocked, for instance. If you don’t eat some fiber with that steak, it may stay in your bowls indefinitely, especially if your on a all protein diet, etc.
That’s not really the point, though, and you know it. The point is that nothing, in reality, is as it seems. The table you computer sits on looks solid, but it’s mostly empty space, for instance. For every physical component, there is a metaphysical law or construct that it’s bound to. The Earth looks flat, but it’s round, etc.
Your senses can be deceived and often are, relying on them, purely for everything you know, gives you a shaky basis on which to live.
[quote]ranengin wrote:
[quote]pat wrote:
[quote]ranengin wrote:
[quote]Sloth wrote:
Possible I would’ve been a slave owner if I had been born to a plantation owner, too. [/quote]
Then possibly the vast majority of christians are only christians due to societal brainwashing and not because of any rational decision on their part?
[/quote]
Oh brother.[/quote]
And yet you too would most likely be a muslim if you had been born and raised in Iran.[/quote]
Maybe and so would you, they tend to put a gun to your head there.
No one can prove the source of morality, it’s all a personal opinion.
I’m hesitant to jump into this thread with both feet since I already went over my position in the roots of human morality thread.
