Maryland is fairly easy if we get to include D.C (which we should)
Johnny Unitas - Baltimore Colts
Cal Ripken Jr. - Baltimore Orioles
Alexander Ovechkin - Washington Capitals
Not sure about NBA basketball. Can I use Len Bias MD Terps Bball? I’m not gonna claim MJ…
[quote]countingbeans wrote:
Personally, it is hard not to put Ortiz there instead of Ted. [/quote]
You on drugs…
[quote]Testy1 wrote:
Tough choices,
Steve Yzerman
Al Kaline
Dave Bing
Barry Sanders
There are some rather distasteful names that could by all rights be up there also,
Ty Cobb
Half the Bad Boys
Gordy Howe (although I love Gordy he was a dirty player in a dirty era)
Ndamukong Suh
[/quote]
How is the Georgia Peach a runner up!!
[quote]countingbeans wrote:
Personally, it is hard not to put Ortiz there instead of Ted. However, when I wipe away the fog of fandom, it would be a silly move. I mean history does and will remember Ted as one of the all time greats… Ortiz just has the hardware and clutch that Teddy just doesn’t have. [/quote]
Ted Williams is one the top 5 best baseball players of all time. You’re insane having papi in the conversation at all.
[quote]Aggv wrote:
[quote]countingbeans wrote:
Personally, it is hard not to put Ortiz there instead of Ted. However, when I wipe away the fog of fandom, it would be a silly move. I mean history does and will remember Ted as one of the all time greats… Ortiz just has the hardware and clutch that Teddy just doesn’t have. [/quote]
Ted Williams is one the top 5 best baseball players of all time. You’re insane having papi in the conversation at all. [/quote]
I almost punched my computer screen when I saw that.
Don’t start Beans!
[quote]usmccds423 wrote:
[quote]Aggv wrote:
[quote]countingbeans wrote:
Personally, it is hard not to put Ortiz there instead of Ted. However, when I wipe away the fog of fandom, it would be a silly move. I mean history does and will remember Ted as one of the all time greats… Ortiz just has the hardware and clutch that Teddy just doesn’t have. [/quote]
Ted Williams is one the top 5 best baseball players of all time. You’re insane having papi in the conversation at all. [/quote]
I almost punched my computer screen when I saw that.
Don’t start Beans![/quote]
Lol, I agree with both of you. Re-read the second and third sentences.
Sentimental reasons are the only thing putting him there. Because I was there, lived it… But no, Teddy is light years ahead of him.
You guys are missing my point in the Williams/Ortiz debate. (Beans - I think you actually get where I am coming from here, just clarifying for the other guys)
There’s a difference between “best” player and “most memorable” - kind of like the debates about who should get MVP.
Ted Williams was a better overall baseball player than David Ortiz, yes.
But which left more of a legacy in Boston sports? If you’re deciding who to put on a fictional “Mount Rushmore” for a city, I would argue that some intangible stuff can come into the conversation. Papi had some of the most iconic moments in Boston sports history and was the constant across three WS title teams, including one that broke the Curse of the Bambino.
There’s a limit to how far this goes, of course. Intangibles can only overcome so much. Don’t create some straw-man about how “Player X from Other City must be better than Player Y because Player X won a championship and Player Y didn’t” - because I’m acknowledging that this is just ONE PIECE of the equation.
Ask a bunch of Boston sports fans, not just “Which guy was the best baseball player?” but “Who’s the most important Red Sox player in history?” or “Who’s the first Red Sox player that comes to mind?” I bet it’s Papi for a lot of people.
*Edited to add: this is all in good fun, because I like talking about this kind of stuff. Don’t y’all get your panties in too much of a twist.
[quote]ActivitiesGuy wrote:
I love the love for Frank Thomas. Underrated player, in my opinion, even as a HOFer. Got a little swallowed up by McGwire/Sosa/Bonds home run numbers which obscured his all around greatness as a hitter until you dug a little deeper than just raw HR numbers. But look at his baseball-reference page and see all the times he led the majors in stuff like OBP and OPS (his heyday before OPS was mainstream stuff). Analytics guys would come all over themselves analyzing Thomas in the early-1990’s if that had been the 2000’s.
And in basketball, Jordan/Russell is a closer debate than you might think. Just curious, have you ever read Bill Simmons’ Book of Basketball? He still goes with Jordan over Russell but breaks down both careers in a lot of detail, it was a really fascinating read.[/quote]
Thank you for the book recommendation; I haven’t read it, but I’ll check it out.
Needless to say, I agree with everything you’ve said about Frank Thomas.
[quote]ActivitiesGuy wrote:
There’s a difference between “best” player and “most memorable” - kind of like the debates about who should get MVP.
Ted Williams was a better overall baseball player than David Ortiz, yes.
[/quote]
Ted Williams… He has his own freakin club at Fenway for crying out loud!
[quote]
But which left more of a legacy in Boston sports? [/quote]
I get people like Otiz now, but in 50 years who will people talk about? Ted Williams hasn’t played baseball since 1960 and here we are talking about him…
[quote]
If you’re deciding who to put on a fictional “Mount Rushmore” for a city, I would argue that some intangible stuff can come into the conversation. Papi had some of the most iconic moments in Boston sports history and was the constant across three WS title teams, including one that broke the Curse of the Bambino. [/quote]
Totally agree, but do his note worthy moment really eclipse Ted Williams?
I feel like a Rushmore for your city should be recognizable to outsiders too.
*Also in good fun 
[quote]usmccds423 wrote:
I get people like Otiz now, but in 50 years who will people talk about? [/quote]
People in Boston will still talk about Ortiz, but in the same breath as Roberts and Butler.
The steal
The Interception
But Williams will always be “more”. I mean dude fucking enlisted during his prime ffs. Ortiz will be a thrilling memory, and forever clutch. Williams will always be a legend.
Honestly, unless the NFL fades away this is Brady’s corner of the USA either way, lol.
[quote]usmccds423 wrote:
I feel like a Rushmore for your city should be recognizable to outsiders too.
[/quote]
I do agree here; paradoxically, though, I think that’s an argument for Ortiz. A lot of random half-assed sports fans DO know who David Ortiz is, and if you say “name a famous Red Sox player” I bet he’d be the first out of their mouths.
Another factor in this discussion we cannot possibly correct for here is age/era. Papi’s big moments have come in the age of ESPN and Twitter and #hottakes; the Splinter played before games were on television, haha. I fully understand that at age 28, there are things just seared into my memory because they’re among my first “big” sports memories, and those undoubtedly weigh heavier in my mind just because they hit me at a big moment in my life. I was a freshman in college when the Sox came back to beat the Yanks in the ALCS Game 4; I remember watching in my dorm with my roommate (still one of my best friends to this day) and both of us going nuts - neither of us being a fan of either team.
So that’s a point in favor of “Hey, let’s not allow recency bias to cloud just how great some of the older guys were.”
Bill Simmons writes a bit about this in his basketball book, too. How we’re always in a rush to find The Next One and sometimes don’t stop to appreciate how great the older guys were (or the guys playing now). We spent so much time breathlessly wondering if or when LeBron could ever pass Jordan that it was really a disservice to both guys.
[quote]ActivitiesGuy wrote:
[quote]usmccds423 wrote:
I feel like a Rushmore for your city should be recognizable to outsiders too.
[/quote]
I do agree here; paradoxically, though, I think that’s an argument for Ortiz. A lot of random half-assed sports fans DO know who David Ortiz is, and if you say “name a famous Red Sox player” I bet he’d be the first out of their mouths. [/quote]
I’m sure that would depend mostly on who you ask. Ortiz is already a fading memory. I bet if you ask anyone over 35 they’d all say Ted Williams. In 50 years no one is going to say David Ortiz, but Ted will still be mentioned over and over again. In my opinion anyway.
Reminds me of the Costas quote, which I just saw recently (maybe on here.)
[quote]usmccds423 wrote:
Reminds me of the Costas quote, which I just saw recently (maybe on here.)[/quote]
While Costas belongs on the Douche Rushmore, that is a good quote, and what I think AG and I have been trying to say.
[quote]countingbeans wrote:
[quote]usmccds423 wrote:
Reminds me of the Costas quote, which I just saw recently (maybe on here.)[/quote]
While Costas belongs on the Douche Rushmore, that is a good quote, and what I think AG and I have been trying to say. [/quote]
That could be a fun exercise.
Douche Rushmore
Bob Costas
Kanye West
Justin Bieber
Joe Biden
[quote]usmccds423 wrote:
Douche Rushmore
Bob Costas
Kanye West
Justin Bieber
Joe Biden[/quote]
save that for another thread, unless it’s sports related.
Cleveland’s Douche Rushmore of sports
I take it you don’t like Art Modell???
[quote]countingbeans wrote:
While Costas belongs on the Douche Rushmore, that is a good quote, and what I think AG and I have been trying to say. [/quote]
I think it strengths my point though. Not many, if anyone, here saw Ted Williams play, but we still talk about him. David Ortiz was a memorable player, no doubt, especially for the New England area, but Ted Williams is a player baseball fans around the world will always talk about.
We are essentially Bob Costas, we didn’t see the real deal.
The only way I can relate is to say kids today just don’t understand what it was like to see Cal Ripken Jr play. They talk about the current Orioles, like Adam Jones, that have helped resurrect Orioles baseball after a decade of losing. 50 years from now Cal Ripken Jr. will still be immortalized at Camden Yards and Adam Jones, well who knows.
[quote]usmccds423 wrote:
I take it you don’t like Art Modell???[/quote]
I wouldnt waste my urine if he was on fire
[quote]usmccds423 wrote:
[quote]countingbeans wrote:
that is a good quote, and what I think AG and I have been trying to say.
[/quote]
I think it strengths my point though. Not many, if anyone, here saw Ted Williams play, but we still talk about him. David Ortiz was a memorable player, no doubt, especially for the New England area, but Ted Williams is a player baseball fans around the world will always talk about.
[/quote]
Hey man, it’s cool, we’re allowed to read the same thing and interpret it different ways (unless we’re talking vaccines, then everyone has to read my shit and interpret it MY FUCKING WAY, lol).
It will be interesting to see how legacies endure for guys like Ortiz, in the Pantheon of Really-Good-Players-That-Had-Clutch-Moments-But-Aren’t-Quite-All-Time-Great-Players, because this is still the first couple generations of athletes in the everything-on-TV era. Like that quote says: all we have on guys like Willie Mays, and Bob Cousy, and even Bill Russell and Wilt Chamberlain, are statistics and some grainy video footage, if we’re lucky (there is NO video footage of some of the greatest ABA and NBA games ever played). 50 years from now, you’ll be able to pull a clip of David Ortiz’s big hits up on the iPhone 700X2G4 and watch them at a moment’s notice.
Marshawn Lynch is another guy with a similar profile to Papi, IMO. Marshawn has an iconic play (the Beast Quake) that launched a five-year run as a borderline-dominant RB on a contending team, capped by two Super Bowl trips. He also has a wacky personality that makes him stand out. How will history view Marshawn? I’m fascinated by this one, too.
[quote]ActivitiesGuy wrote:
[quote]usmccds423 wrote:
[quote]countingbeans wrote:
that is a good quote, and what I think AG and I have been trying to say.
[/quote]
I think it strengths my point though. Not many, if anyone, here saw Ted Williams play, but we still talk about him. David Ortiz was a memorable player, no doubt, especially for the New England area, but Ted Williams is a player baseball fans around the world will always talk about.
[/quote]
Hey man, it’s cool, we’re allowed to read the same thing and interpret it different ways (unless we’re talking vaccines, then everyone has to read my shit and interpret it MY FUCKING WAY, lol).
It will be interesting to see how legacies endure for guys like Ortiz, in the Pantheon of Really-Good-Players-That-Had-Clutch-Moments-But-Aren’t-Quite-All-Time-Great-Players, because this is still the first couple generations of athletes in the everything-on-TV era. Like that quote says: all we have on guys like Willie Mays, and Bob Cousy, and even Bill Russell and Wilt Chamberlain, are statistics and some grainy video footage, if we’re lucky (there is NO video footage of some of the greatest ABA and NBA games ever played). 50 years from now, you’ll be able to pull a clip of David Ortiz’s big hits up on the iPhone 700X2G4 and watch them at a moment’s notice.
Marshawn Lynch is another guy with a similar profile to Papi, IMO. Marshawn has an iconic play (the Beast Quake) that launched a five-year run as a borderline-dominant RB on a contending team, capped by two Super Bowl trips. He also has a wacky personality that makes him stand out. How will history view Marshawn? I’m fascinated by this one, too.[/quote]
Ya, no doubt, it’s interesting. I guess we’ll see.
