[quote]Varqanir wrote:
Yeah. Especially that Greenspan fellow.
Oh…Communists?!
I thought you said economists.
[/quote]
I forgot them and lawyers.
[quote]Aleksandr wrote:
Zap Branigan wrote:
Are you people serious with your questions about religion or are you just giving her a hard time?
I am not sure if Protestants believe in Purgatory (or if it is still official Catholic doctorine either), but Purgatory is a place your soul goes to after death if you are not immediately worthy of Heaven or if you are not evil enough to be sent to Hell.
This is where the unbaptised are supposed to go until their souls are deemed worthy.
Only murdrerers, rapists, Scientologists and communists go directly to Hell.
What about muslim communists? :O[/quote]
Renounce communism and you might make it. Just don’t go to law school or convert to Scientology.
[quote]Aleksandr wrote:
BarneyFife wrote:
Second question- you mentioned that those who have never known God would not be punished for disbeleife, but would be punished for doing bad things. What if those things they do are not bad acroding to their laws?
I am sure it is blasphemous, but I have a hard time beleiving that the “Great Spirit” of native american peoples is not the Jehovah, the Yaweh and the God of all the other faiths. In fact, it seems like everyone has the exact same God, but just different Messiahs.
Just so you know, I think this is consistent with what Muhammad said (it is not in the Qur’an, however, so it’s hard to say for certain).[/quote]
Aleksandr, have you read anything about the theory that many Native American tribes were contacted by Muslim traders long before Colombus, and many of them embraced Islam? That would make the “Great Spirit” one and the same with Allah/Yahweh/Jehovah.
I’ll have to do some digging to find the paper again, but I was fascinated by it when I read it.
Found the article.
http://www.themodernreligion.com/ht/before-columbus.html
If you live in Florida you may be interested to know that the capital city Tallahassee may just be derived from an Arabic phrase that entered the local Indian language, meaning, “Allah will deliver you in the future.”
I thought it was interesting, anyway.
[quote]Varqanir wrote:
Found the article.
http://www.themodernreligion.com/ht/before-columbus.html
If you lives in Florida you may be interested to know that the capital city Tallahassee may just be derived from an Arabic phrase that entered the local Indian language, meaning, “Allah will deliver you in the future.”
I thought it was interesting, anyway.[/quote]
It is interesting but it does not seem to have the ring of truth.
To claim that treaties contain certain wording from Islamic sources and then not quote the wording is either the ultimate in laziness or is a falsehood. I don’t know which, but it is not encouraging.
To claim that spear heads could only come from a place in Africa and not provide further information on why is also not encouraging.
Of course it is possible. We know the Vikings came to North America before Columbus. They found the evidence and atrifacts.
It is suspected the Chinese may have came to North America as well with their great treasure fleet before they turned inward.
[quote]Zap Branigan wrote:
Varqanir wrote:
Found the article.
http://www.themodernreligion.com/ht/before-columbus.html
If you lives in Florida you may be interested to know that the capital city Tallahassee may just be derived from an Arabic phrase that entered the local Indian language, meaning, “Allah will deliver you in the future.”
I thought it was interesting, anyway.
It is interesting but it does not seem to have the ring of truth.
To claim that treaties contain certain wording from Islamic sources and then not quote the wording is either the ultimate in laziness or is a falsehood. I don’t know which, but it is not encouraging.
To claim that spear heads could only come from a place in Africa and not provide further information on why is also not encouraging.
Of course it is possible. We know the Vikings came to North America before Columbus. They found the evidence and atrifacts.
It is suspected the Chinese may have came to North America as well with their great treasure fleet before they turned inward.[/quote]
Well, of course this was not a scholarly article, just one Muslim writing for a Muslim audience, probably not trying to persuade anyone of anything. He does mention the names of scholars (Clyde-Ahmad Winters. Barry Fell) who have allegedly provided evidence. I suppose anyone who is interested could look these people up and see what they’ve written on the subject, and what their credentials are.
[quote]Varqanir wrote:
Well, of course this was not a scholarly article, just one Muslim writing for a Muslim audience, probably not trying to persuade anyone of anything. He does mention the names of scholars (Clyde-Ahmad Winters. Barry Fell) who have allegedly provided evidence. I suppose anyone who is interested could look these people up and see what they’ve written on the subject, and what their credentials are.[/quote]
The late Barry Fell seems to be at the center of quite a bit of conspiracy theorizing in anthropology… I happened upon some of this material a couple of weeks ago. I can’t say I know anything substantial about the man, but the people advocating his work seem to be nutty enough.
I’m not sure of a lot of things, but there is one thing that I absolutely POSITIVELY believe.
There is no such thing as Hell.
Let me clarify, there is no “lake of fire”, no spiritual place where people are tormented forever and forever for all of eternity.
I believe that God exists. I also believe that God is an omnipotent, higher being totally incomprehensible to a human mind. Just as a 2-dimensional being could not comprehend the existence of “up” or “down”, we simply cannot possibly begin to fathom the “though process” (for lack of better term) of God. Trying to do so is an exercise in futility.
Therefore, trying to attibute any human attribute to God is simply erroneous. Judgement is a human attribute. Why would God judge? Why would God send anyone to Hell? God is all-powerful and able to provide anyone with an eternity of peace and happiness in Heaven- if Heaven does exist which I’m not sure of.
Why would God choose to send someone to eternal punishment in Hell when they can have eternal peace and happiness in Heaven? God is not petty- it would not choose to punish somebody for a petty reason such as not believing that he exists or even because somebody has killed somebody. Why would God care if you killed somebody? This implies that killing someone would make God angry. How could God be angry? That’s a human emotion and thus unattributable to God.
I think it is kind of ridiculous and iconclastic to think there could be no consequences to our bad actions, but why would there be? God has no reason to punish anyone when he can make everyone perfectly and divinely happy for all eternity.
I think the only purpose of religon was to provide a way to control an unenlightened populace through fear. It seems to have done that quite well.
Oh man oh man oh man.(shakes head)
“I know i’m right” JP I like you and i’m sorry for harping on this, but this is the least intelligent thing that can be said. The reason it’s called having faith, is that we don’t know 100%. You cannot know 100% or you yourself would be god. you tell me 1+1=2 and tell me you know that that is 100% right and I can give you an example where it is wrong. Everything is not black and white, especially when deling with faith and higher powers. For instance, do you think we are the last stepbefore god? what of higher dimensional beings? 4th dimension? 5th dimension? 6th? 7th? when does it stop?
See god doesn’t address if there is a 4th dimension in the bible, so you can’t tell me you “know” that there is no 4th dimension.
Anyways, I can’t even begin to get into this discussion, as it takes too much energy away from me. So this is more or less a hit and run. Anyways, I know you know it’s not true that you know christianity is the one truth. Thats like impossible or something.
V
Don’t worry Vegita, I don’t feel picked on. I’m putting my beliefs out there, and I know the consequences of that. As long as no one calls me ugly or anything my feeling won’t get hurt.
As for your point, you say that there is no way we can know that anything is absolute truth, not even that 1 plus 1 equals 2. Well, using that rule, you can’t even know that your rule is true. So for all you know I could know something that is absolute truth.
[quote]Varqanir wrote:
Their punishment is that they have to moderate this thread for eternity.[/quote]
I just know that somewhere in the US someone took a job moderating a BB website , maybe to remove the occasional bunghole picture…
Alas, it was not meant to be…
Evolution, creation, GodGodGod, BushWMDIraq, GodEvolutionGod…
[quote]jtrinsey wrote:
I’m not sure of a lot of things, but there is one thing that I absolutely POSITIVELY believe.
There is no such thing as Hell.
Let me clarify, there is no “lake of fire”, no spiritual place where people are tormented forever and forever for all of eternity.
I believe that God exists. I also believe that God is an omnipotent, higher being totally incomprehensible to a human mind. Just as a 2-dimensional being could not comprehend the existence of “up” or “down”, we simply cannot possibly begin to fathom the “though process” (for lack of better term) of God. Trying to do so is an exercise in futility.
Therefore, trying to attibute any human attribute to God is simply erroneous. Judgement is a human attribute. Why would God judge? Why would God send anyone to Hell? God is all-powerful and able to provide anyone with an eternity of peace and happiness in Heaven- if Heaven does exist which I’m not sure of.
Why would God choose to send someone to eternal punishment in Hell when they can have eternal peace and happiness in Heaven? God is not petty- it would not choose to punish somebody for a petty reason such as not believing that he exists or even because somebody has killed somebody. Why would God care if you killed somebody? This implies that killing someone would make God angry. How could God be angry? That’s a human emotion and thus unattributable to God.
I think it is kind of ridiculous and iconclastic to think there could be no consequences to our bad actions, but why would there be? God has no reason to punish anyone when he can make everyone perfectly and divinely happy for all eternity.
I think the only purpose of religon was to provide a way to control an unenlightened populace through fear. It seems to have done that quite well.[/quote]
I dont usually stop off on threads like this but this post just drove me up the wall.
My only question, and the only one I need to ask is by what authority are you giving your opinion? Just because you said that God isn’t this this or this, doesn’t mean He cannot be. And because you use your logic doesn’t demand that you are correct or hold a greater authority than anyone else. That’s like stating its impossible for a bumble bee to fly, yet it still does. By all logic, it shouldnt, but it does.
Going back to the question, then if authority is only by yourself, then I can simply say you’re wrong and we’re on equal plans. Since we are both humans with equal worth, then its my 1 vote versus your 1 vote. Or if I have more education in religion, by the world’s standard, I have more authority and that shuts you out. This is just a hypothetical situation but you get the idea.
Here’s the second major question. Hypotheical: If the Bible is exactly it says it is (the very words of God), what holds greater authority? You or God? That means, with a slight glup, whether you agree or disagree with what He says doesn’t change His decision. If God is like the Bible says with all power, knowledge & wisdom, all authority, omnipresence, omnipotent, etc, then thats the reality and you cant argue with that.
What do you say when you are brought before a judge for committing a crime and found guilty? “Sorry I just dont believe in jail” and suddenly you wont have to go?
-T
[quote]nephorm wrote:
I can’t say I know anything substantial about the man, but the people advocating his work seem to be nutty enough. [/quote]
Of course, the same could be said for a lot of people. Especially founders of great religions.
Rockscar,
[quote]Rockscar wrote:
Why do you guys try to reason with religious fanatics? You simply can’t because their minds are closed to other opinions and values.
You need to realize that they are people in need of direction in their life because they can’t do it on their own. Especially the born again types.[/quote]
Well said, Rockscar. As much as I like a heated discussion - I don’t discuss religion itself. It’s pointless and it always is about personal feelings and convictions. That’s a space where no debate or discussion will be fruitful.
Unfortunately, it’s getting harder and harder in the political forums to find a religion free zone. That reduces my fun here massively.
Makkun
JP touche! But still even though you won’t admit it to me or on here or maybe even to any human being, you don’t know 100% what happens after you draw your last breath. Anyways, to some other dudes post now since I don’t seem to be able to leave this alone yet…
What do all you bible believers think about us who have read the bible ourselves and not believed it as you do. Don’t you think that a perfect god would make something clear enough so that everyone who was taught or read the bible would see clearly that it was his work and follow it’s teachings?
Do you think we are evil and don’t believe it’s the word of god out of us being evil beings? Do you think we are stupid that we cannotunderstand that this is gods writings to us? A simple blueprint to follow to get to perfection? What if I told you that I live my life as well as many christians do. That other than not going to church, not asking for forgiveness for my sins and not believing that Jesus is the gateway to heavan I otherwise live a pure and good life.
If thats all I had to do to make it into heavan, and I read the bible and it told me this what motivation would I have to not believe this and follow this blueprint?
There are only a few people who would PURPOSLEY pick eternal hell over heavan as the bible describes them. Possibly a mentaly insane person, but I think the bible gives them a free pass. Possibly a person who is consumed with evil, though I think that if evil people of that type really existed in any type of numbers, there would be ALOT more that is wrong with the world, in fact, if there were that type of evil who would choose hell, the world would not exist.
The only option left is that there are people who just don’t believe it to be true. Now are you telling me that your god can screw the bible up to such an extent that only 10% of the worlds population believes it is the truth? Logic won’t allow me to believe, sorry. May I burn in hell.
V
[quote]Tank53 wrote:
I dont usually stop off on threads like this but this post just drove me up the wall.
My only question, and the only one I need to ask is by what authority are you giving your opinion?[/quote]
I pretend no authority when giving my opinion. Feel free to accept it or not. I don’t pretend to be an expert or even a dilettante- that doesn’t prohibit me from having an opinion.
[quote]
Just because you said that God isn’t this this or this, doesn’t mean He cannot be. And because you use your logic doesn’t demand that you are correct or hold a greater authority than anyone else.[/quote]
I will definitly agree with you there. It is quite possible that I’m wrong. I would go further than that and say that it is VERY likely that many of my views, assertations and opinions are wildly incorrect. However, I believe they are MORE CORRECT than the traditional Heaven/Hell theory. I also agree that while I do not hold a greater authority than someone else, another person using a different logic doesn’t neccessarily hold a greater authority than me. Further, even if someone is more qualified (aka, more educated), it doesn’t guarantee their correctness.
[quote]
That’s like stating its impossible for a bumble bee to fly, yet it still does. By all logic, it shouldnt, but it does. [/quote]
That’s not even close to what I’m saying. I’m not saying it’s impossible for God to exist, I’m saying it’s impossible to attribute human qualities to God. Unless you are implying that it is possible for God to possess human-like qualities? I would say that is a much more valid argument.
[quote]
Going back to the question, then if authority is only by yourself, then I can simply say you’re wrong and we’re on equal plans. Since we are both humans with equal worth, then its my 1 vote versus your 1 vote. [/quote]
That’s not really how logical debate works. You have to provide an argument besides “I think you’re wrong.” I tried to do that, perhaps insufficiently, but I tried. Throw some Apologetics at me at least.
[quote]
Or if I have more education in religion, by the world’s standard, I have more authority and that shuts you out. This is just a hypothetical situation but you get the idea.[/quote]
Again, this is not really how logical debate works. You being more educated in religon would make your OPINION worth much more than mine (if we were debating whether a particular scripture was translated correctly, etc.), but it doesn’t mean you would be beyond reproach. If a high school kid proves a math theorem wrong, his teacher can’t just say, “I’m more educated, thus your opinion cannot be right.” Obviously, religon will never be cut and dry but you get the idea.
[quote]
Here’s the second major question. Hypotheical: If the Bible is exactly it says it is (the very words of God), what holds greater authority? You or God?[/quote]
I’m pretty sure that God holds a higher authority than me regardless of the Bible’s content.
[quote]
That means, with a slight glup, whether you agree or disagree with what He says doesn’t change His decision. If God is like the Bible says with all power, knowledge & wisdom, all authority, omnipresence, omnipotent, etc, then thats the reality and you cant argue with that. [/quote]
I’m not sure what in my post would lead you to believe I would disagree with any of that? I totally agree with the concept of an omnipotent God. What I disagree with is the concept of a vindictive God.
[quote]
What do you say when you are brought before a judge for committing a crime and found guilty? “Sorry I just dont believe in jail” and suddenly you wont have to go?[/quote]
This shows that you missed the entire point of my post. I’m sorry if I didn’t make it clear so I will try to clarify more. To use your analogy, I’m not saying, “I don’t believe in Hell so I don’t have to go.” I am trying to say two main things:
1.) God has NO REASON to send anybody to Hell. You failed to provide me with a valid reason why God would do so.
2.) It is possible that God doesn’t care about the things we view as sins.
I think you viewed my post as one of those, “I don’t believe so it doesn’t apply to me,” which I don’t view as a valid argument either, so I can understand your frustration if that’s what you thought it was. Unfortunately you really didn’t address any points of my argument. Maybe you’ll do so this time?
I know I’ll get flamed but…what the heck…
Even though I am a Christian, I know that the Bible is 4 books chosen from many, and that these books were chosen and written by men. There are bound to be lots of mistakes, lots of contradictions, but is that God’s fault?
Imagine you had a great story to tell, but you had to tell this to people of very limited understanding – like little children. To those children, your story might be very bewildering. Even if we only suppose there might be a God, he would be so far above us as to be almost incomprehensible. It’d be like us talking to a white lab rats. But, even if you don’t understand the message completely, you might get a glimmer that someone is speaking to you.
Now, the lab rats want to determine if this God exists. They use the best of their lab rat logic, but just can’t prove it. Does that mean that God doesn’t exist?
God, in infinite wisdom, wants us to know he exists. So, he may show himself, such as Krisna to Arjuna. But, can Arjuna now prove God exists? No. He tries to write down his experience, but that’s still not proof.
When you speak to someone who has had this experience, they may seem overzealous and that’s sad. It usually has the opposite effect, as it has on many people here. The only thing to do is wait until God shows himself to them – then THEY become the zealots. Until then, cut us Christians some slack; we just want to share our experience.
[quote]Zap Branigan wrote:
Aleksandr wrote:
Zap Branigan wrote:
Are you people serious with your questions about religion or are you just giving her a hard time?
I am not sure if Protestants believe in Purgatory (or if it is still official Catholic doctorine either), but Purgatory is a place your soul goes to after death if you are not immediately worthy of Heaven or if you are not evil enough to be sent to Hell.
This is where the unbaptised are supposed to go until their souls are deemed worthy.
Only murdrerers, rapists, Scientologists and communists go directly to Hell.
What about muslim communists? 
Renounce communism and you might make it. Just don’t go to law school or convert to Scientology.[/quote]
Lawyers and commies go to hell? I don’t think thats in the Bible. I thought that one of Jesus’es disciples was a lawyer.
someone slides away King James version and slides in King G.W. Bushes version
Let me try looking it up once more.
Oh! your right, it says right here under the gospel of Bighats, fancy boots and no brains!
Communists, people that practice birht control, unwed mothers, all you dang foreigners, gays, people who make less then 45K a year, people in states colored anything but red, The french, and Democrats. Murderers are 50/50 odds, and rapists have a brief layover in dallas.
realizes that he is not reading the King James version
What the heck?
[quote]BarneyFife wrote:
Zap Branigan wrote:
Aleksandr wrote:
Zap Branigan wrote:
Are you people serious with your questions about religion or are you just giving her a hard time?
I am not sure if Protestants believe in Purgatory (or if it is still official Catholic doctorine either), but Purgatory is a place your soul goes to after death if you are not immediately worthy of Heaven or if you are not evil enough to be sent to Hell.
This is where the unbaptised are supposed to go until their souls are deemed worthy.
Only murdrerers, rapists, Scientologists and communists go directly to Hell.
What about muslim communists?
Renounce communism and you might make it. Just don’t go to law school or convert to Scientology.
Lawyers and commies go to hell? I don’t think thats in the Bible. I thought that one of Jesus’es disciples was a lawyer.
someone slides away King James version and slides in King G.W. Bushes version
Let me try looking it up once more.
Oh! your right, it says right here under the gospel of Bighats, fancy boots and no brains!
Communists, people that practice birht control, unwed mothers, all you dang foreigners, gays, people who make less then 45K a year, people in states colored anything but red, The french, and Democrats. Murderers are 50/50 odds, and rapists have a brief layover in dallas.
realizes that he is not reading the King James version
What the heck?[/quote]
I think people with 70’s porn mustaches go too. Best shave that thing to be sure.
[quote]Zap Branigan wrote:
BarneyFife wrote:
Zap Branigan wrote:
Aleksandr wrote:
Zap Branigan wrote:
Are you people serious with your questions about religion or are you just giving her a hard time?
I am not sure if Protestants believe in Purgatory (or if it is still official Catholic doctorine either), but Purgatory is a place your soul goes to after death if you are not immediately worthy of Heaven or if you are not evil enough to be sent to Hell.
This is where the unbaptised are supposed to go until their souls are deemed worthy.
Only murdrerers, rapists, Scientologists and communists go directly to Hell.
What about muslim communists?
Renounce communism and you might make it. Just don’t go to law school or convert to Scientology.
Lawyers and commies go to hell? I don’t think thats in the Bible. I thought that one of Jesus’es disciples was a lawyer.
someone slides away King James version and slides in King G.W. Bushes version
Let me try looking it up once more.
Oh! your right, it says right here under the gospel of Bighats, fancy boots and no brains!
Communists, people that practice birht control, unwed mothers, all you dang foreigners, gays, people who make less then 45K a year, people in states colored anything but red, The french, and Democrats. Murderers are 50/50 odds, and rapists have a brief layover in dallas.
realizes that he is not reading the King James version
What the heck?
I think people with 70’s porn mustaches go too. Best shave that thing to be sure.[/quote]
I am thinking of going for the adolf hitler look. Facist dictators are not on the list.
That or maybe the guy from the movie “the cowboy way”