The politics forum has been inundated with religion? And it’s now spilling over to other forums?
I formally request a Religion Forum, so as to keep religion OUT of everything else. There are people here that do not want to be accosted. We do not want to lose members out of religious zealousness…
That is all.
[quote]kroby wrote:
The politics forum has been inundated with religion? And it’s now spilling over to other forums?
I formally request a Religion Forum, so as to keep religion OUT of everything else. There are people here that do not want to be accosted. We do not want to lose members out of religious zealousness…
That is all.[/quote]
You are right. I will restrict my political and religous comments to the politics/world issues forum.
Interestingly enough, Ronnie Coleman and Jesus were both carpenters.
[quote]BarneyFife wrote:
…
I am thinking of going for the adolf hitler look. Facist dictators are not on the list.
That or maybe the guy from the movie “the cowboy way”[/quote]
Sounds like a plan. Can you do a handlebar mustache? That is a get out of hell free card.
What the hell? This has turned into YET ANOTHER religion thread.
Who dropped the ball?
[quote]Tank53 wrote:
jtrinsey wrote:
I’m not sure of a lot of things, but there is one thing that I absolutely POSITIVELY believe.
There is no such thing as Hell.
Let me clarify, there is no “lake of fire”, no spiritual place where people are tormented forever and forever for all of eternity.
I believe that God exists. I also believe that God is an omnipotent, higher being totally incomprehensible to a human mind. Just as a 2-dimensional being could not comprehend the existence of “up” or “down”, we simply cannot possibly begin to fathom the “though process” (for lack of better term) of God. Trying to do so is an exercise in futility.
Therefore, trying to attibute any human attribute to God is simply erroneous. Judgement is a human attribute. Why would God judge? Why would God send anyone to Hell? God is all-powerful and able to provide anyone with an eternity of peace and happiness in Heaven- if Heaven does exist which I’m not sure of.
Why would God choose to send someone to eternal punishment in Hell when they can have eternal peace and happiness in Heaven? God is not petty- it would not choose to punish somebody for a petty reason such as not believing that he exists or even because somebody has killed somebody. Why would God care if you killed somebody? This implies that killing someone would make God angry. How could God be angry? That’s a human emotion and thus unattributable to God.
I think it is kind of ridiculous and iconclastic to think there could be no consequences to our bad actions, but why would there be? God has no reason to punish anyone when he can make everyone perfectly and divinely happy for all eternity.
I think the only purpose of religon was to provide a way to control an unenlightened populace through fear. It seems to have done that quite well.
I dont usually stop off on threads like this but this post just drove me up the wall.
My only question, and the only one I need to ask is by what authority are you giving your opinion? Just because you said that God isn’t this this or this, doesn’t mean He cannot be. And because you use your logic doesn’t demand that you are correct or hold a greater authority than anyone else. That’s like stating its impossible for a bumble bee to fly, yet it still does. By all logic, it shouldnt, but it does.
Going back to the question, then if authority is only by yourself, then I can simply say you’re wrong and we’re on equal plans. Since we are both humans with equal worth, then its my 1 vote versus your 1 vote. Or if I have more education in religion, by the world’s standard, I have more authority and that shuts you out. This is just a hypothetical situation but you get the idea.
Here’s the second major question. Hypotheical: If the Bible is exactly it says it is (the very words of God), what holds greater authority? You or God? That means, with a slight glup, whether you agree or disagree with what He says doesn’t change His decision. If God is like the Bible says with all power, knowledge & wisdom, all authority, omnipresence, omnipotent, etc, then thats the reality and you cant argue with that.
What do you say when you are brought before a judge for committing a crime and found guilty? “Sorry I just dont believe in jail” and suddenly you wont have to go?
-T[/quote]
Yeah… but we KNOW the jail exists for a fact. Many have seen it. Many have been there and back.
Plus they offer tours and stuff you know…
[quote]Headhunter wrote:
I know I’ll get flamed but…what the heck…
Even though I am a Christian, I know that the Bible is 4 books chosen from many, and that these books were chosen and written by men. There are bound to be lots of mistakes, lots of contradictions, but is that God’s fault?
[/quote]
headhunter, please brace yourself for what I am about to say…
ready?
Here goes…
I recommend you read the Qur’an. Why? Because this limitation is overcome in the Qur’an. It comes directly from God, written down word-for-word as it was given. I think if you read it, you’ll see how shockingly similar to the Bible it is. However, unlike the Bible, it has never been changed, and was not an account of what happened, told by men (as they remembered it) years after the fact. Since the time it was revealed until now, not one word has changed. That being said, unless you are fluent in arabic, I recommend you check out a few different translations before making a decision (since there ARE mistakes in translation, this is unavoidable). I also believe a lot of it is specific to the culture of the place and time, and is not applicable to here-and-now, but these things are minor (eg, paying dowry, freeing slaves, etc).
Anyway, it’s just a thought. You might find it interesting, at the least.
Here is a teaser: The crucifiction of Christ has an alternate ending! And it does not contradict what the disciples claim to have seen!
And furthermore. The bible was written by man FOR man.
Don’t think that it is perfect. Just like any other book and scripture, it has flaws. Flaws with plot, storyline, witness accounts exaggerated, or even made up, etc.
This was during the days they believed in dragins, sun gods, and flying harpies.
It is NOT EXACTLY as things happened. It cannot be. (see the dead sea scrolls for referene, they say something else entierly)
So stop using it as reference! Use something else! There are many current events that happen to support various ‘beliefs’.
What about all those weeping, and bleeding statues of the Virgin Mary. Surely that has some value! And it’s up to date ‘proof’ if you so wish to argue.
[quote]Headhunter wrote:
I know I’ll get flamed but…what the heck…
Even though I am a Christian, I know that the Bible is 4 books chosen from many, and that these books were chosen and written by men. There are bound to be lots of mistakes, lots of contradictions, but is that God’s fault?
Imagine you had a great story to tell, but you had to tell this to people of very limited understanding – like little children. To those children, your story might be very bewildering. Even if we only suppose there might be a God, he would be so far above us as to be almost incomprehensible. It’d be like us talking to a white lab rats. But, even if you don’t understand the message completely, you might get a glimmer that someone is speaking to you.
Now, the lab rats want to determine if this God exists. They use the best of their lab rat logic, but just can’t prove it. Does that mean that God doesn’t exist?
God, in infinite wisdom, wants us to know he exists. So, he may show himself, such as Krisna to Arjuna. But, can Arjuna now prove God exists? No. He tries to write down his experience, but that’s still not proof.
When you speak to someone who has had this experience, they may seem overzealous and that’s sad. It usually has the opposite effect, as it has on many people here. The only thing to do is wait until God shows himself to them – then THEY become the zealots. Until then, cut us Christians some slack; we just want to share our experience.
[/quote]
Good post.
I think Christians would get more converts by actually living by the ideals that Jesus held so high, rather than just talking about them, or telling everyone else how they are going to hell. If you lead by example, others will naturally follow you.
[quote]Massif wrote:
I think Christians would get more converts by actually living by the ideals that Jesus held so high, rather than just talking about them, or telling everyone else how they are going to hell. If you lead by example, others will naturally follow you.[/quote]
I am not interested in getting a bunch of false converts by proclaiming a man-centred, warm and fuzzy, your okay, I’m okay, look how happy Jesus makes us feel kind of message. No one will truly become a Christian until they realize and acknowledge their own sinful state. No one will truly put their trust in Jesus if they don’t understand their need for a savoir.
As for your comment about living the Christian life, I don’t run around sinning all day then log on to T-Nation so I can preach turn or burn sermons. I am living the life that God wants me to live, feeding my soul with Scripture, striving to do as Jesus commanded, allowing God to work on the sin in my life. Yet it doesn’t really matter, all my best efforts would be nothing but garbage in God’s eyes. I am so deeply indebted to Jesus atonement that I will gladly serve Him as his slave for the rest of my life.
Hey, I can do you one better. Not only do I acknowledge it . . . I revel in it! And I look forward to getting way more sinful in the future.
Animalistic sex with a huge variety of hot women and their sisters is a sin, right?
[quote]JPBear wrote:
No one will truly become a Christian until they realize and acknowledge their own sinful state.[/quote]
[quote]jtrinsey wrote:
This shows that you missed the entire point of my post. I’m sorry if I didn’t make it clear so I will try to clarify more. To use your analogy, I’m not saying, “I don’t believe in Hell so I don’t have to go.” I am trying to say two main things:
1.) God has NO REASON to send anybody to Hell. You failed to provide me with a valid reason why God would do so.
2.) It is possible that God doesn’t care about the things we view as sins.
I think you viewed my post as one of those, “I don’t believe so it doesn’t apply to me,” which I don’t view as a valid argument either, so I can understand your frustration if that’s what you thought it was. Unfortunately you really didn’t address any points of my argument. Maybe you’ll do so this time?
[/quote]
Good post and I’m certainly up for good posts. I didnt decide to keep all of the past debates as I feel that would be nit-picky. If you wanted me to pick up something else I left off, feel free to mention it.
You were right to assume that hows I viewed your last post. I looked at it and thought just as you speculated. But I will try my best to address what you’ve just asked of me.
You made an interesting point and I see where you’re coming from. I think…ha I’ve been wrong before. This is surely my view on the matter and you can fire away. But it would appear to me that if God wasn’t interested in right or wrong, we wouldnt have been built humans with a conscience. The idea of morality wouldnt be intertwined with or lives, and we could live just as the animals do. You have to admit that human beings were made very differently than animals to be creative and have a conscience. The words right or wrong would never entertain our minds, and we could live perfectly guilt free lives without a conscience. I know this could turn into a chicken and egg debate, are we applying humans attributes to God or did He instill them first? Since God would exist before human beings, that would mean He could design them with the values He desired.
Secondly, if with a conscience, it must have been important enough to be instilled in the first place. While that can turn into a pissing contest, I must say that without importance, we wouldnt have been created with it. We could have surely been made without it, so adding those certain attributes was intentional. You have to admit, we are very different than any other creation in all the world (and may I speculate universe). Life was supposed to be lived in some sort of harmony. That can be seen by the intermixing of animals and plants, food chains, oxygen and nitrogen mixtures, etc.
Despite my desire to continue with this, I admit its a difficult question for anyone to answer and my bedtime is well overdue. I’m not running with my tail between my legs, but thoughtful typing is well…just that and strenous.
My only leaving thought is if all the above is true, and human beings are instilled with a sense of right and wrong, this must be a reflection of Gods same desires. I mean really, if God was evil, would he want the world to be good or feel bad about their decisions? I’d imagine it would be a world of chaos to reflect those same feelings. There would be a right way and a wrong way. How could all paths lead to paradise? The same for Mother Teresa and the same for Adolf Hitler?
[quote]Headhunter wrote:
I know I’ll get flamed but…what the heck…
Even though I am a Christian, I know that the Bible is 4 books chosen from many, and that these books were chosen and written by men. There are bound to be lots of mistakes, lots of contradictions, but is that God’s fault?
[/quote]
If it does have faults, then I would say yes it is Gods fault. I know that there have been some posts on here proving the faulty of the Bible. Most of those have their own answers if people look for them. I know that most people get hung up on the Noah story or the Red Sea with Moses. But I’ve seen plenty of TV shows and writings to support the idea that they could have existed. But thats a whole other rub.
The question really isnt about whether or not the people wrote it with mistakes. Rather a better question is to wonder if God was powerful enough to keep the intergity of His own words. I mean whats the point in worshipping God if He can create the whole universe yet cannot keep the mistakes out of His own writings?
[quote]Aleksandr wrote:
Here is a teaser: The crucifiction of Christ has an alternate ending! And it does not contradict what the disciples claim to have seen![/quote]
So what this is like Jesus 2: The less bloody ending? Claim? You’ll have to elaborate for all of us here.
[quote]JPBear wrote:
Massif wrote:
I think Christians would get more converts by actually living by the ideals that Jesus held so high, rather than just talking about them, or telling everyone else how they are going to hell. If you lead by example, others will naturally follow you.
JPBear wrote:
I am not interested in getting a bunch of false converts by proclaiming a man-centred, warm and fuzzy, your okay, I’m okay, look how happy Jesus makes us feel kind of message. No one will truly become a Christian until they realize and acknowledge their own sinful state. No one will truly put their trust in Jesus if they don’t understand their need for a savoir. [/quote]
I disagree with you on a couple of points in this part of your post and have a couple of questions. Firstly, the whole “warm and fuzzy, your okay, I’m okay” part. My question is simply this - Fucking what?? Where did you get that from? Do you believe that people who are truly inspired by Christ’s life and actions are some how less Christian than those who went to church because a preacher told them that they are shit and going to hell?
[quote]JPBear wrote:
As for your comment about living the Christian life, I don’t run around sinning all day then log on to T-Nation so I can preach turn or burn sermons. I am living the life that God wants me to live, feeding my soul with Scripture, striving to do as Jesus commanded, allowing God to work on the sin in my life. Yet it doesn’t really matter, all my best efforts would be nothing but garbage in God’s eyes. I am so deeply indebted to Jesus atonement that I will gladly serve Him as his slave for the rest of my life. [/quote]
Good for you. I never questioned your faith or your actions, although I don’t know why you think that your efforts would be garbage in God’s eyes.
We all know Christians that are the first to throw stones at their neighbours. They are intolerant, lack compassion and humility, and serve the Lord only when it meets there needs. These guys do your message no good at all. This is who I was referring to in my post.
[quote]Tank53 wrote:
Good post and I’m certainly up for good posts. I didnt decide to keep all of the past debates as I feel that would be nit-picky. If you wanted me to pick up something else I left off, feel free to mention it. [/quote]
Not really, I think you did a good job of addressing pretty much all of my points between this and the last one.
[quote]
You were right to assume that hows I viewed your last post. I looked at it and thought just as you speculated. But I will try my best to address what you’ve just asked of me.[/quote]
I definitly can’t ask more. Hopefully I can do the same and with the same politeness you’ve shown me!
[quote]
You made an interesting point and I see where you’re coming from. I think…ha I’ve been wrong before. This is surely my view on the matter and you can fire away. But it would appear to me that if God wasn’t interested in right or wrong, we wouldnt have been built humans with a conscience. The idea of morality wouldnt be intertwined with or lives, and we could live just as the animals do. You have to admit that human beings were made very differently than animals to be creative and have a conscience. The words right or wrong would never entertain our minds, and we could live perfectly guilt free lives without a conscience. I know this could turn into a chicken and egg debate, are we applying humans attributes to God or did He instill them first? Since God would exist before human beings, that would mean He could design them with the values He desired. [/quote]
That is a great point. To be honest I didn’t even think of that as a counter-argument. I am very unsure of exactly what I believe- I know that is a very intellectually lazy viewpoint (one of my best friends studies apologetics and always gets frustrated when I say that!), but it’s true. If I had to try to define my “belief system” it would be kind of similar to what you just said, only with a different slant. I believe that God created the ability of self-analysis or introspection (I believe we are the only animals that can do this- other animals seem to be capable of some sort of emotions, yet I believe only humans can self-anlayze?) so that we may view the world around and ask “Why?” Obviously, although I believe the concept of Hell is foolish, it seems to weird to me to think that going around killing somebody is ok to do. I believe that God gave us the ability to look inside ourselves and think about the consquences of our actions so that we may improve.
Ultimately, I feel that I must look for God inside myself. Perhaps it is just an inevitable function of human nature, but I too feel there must be SOMETHING greater than what I am right now. I don’t think the answer is to put my faith in Jesus and hope for the best. Maybe it is egotistical but I feel as though God is inside each of us and we all have the power to find it (maybe a spillover of the American “All men are created equal” way of thinking?).
You can see my confusion there as that was kind of rambling and incoherent. In truth, I don’t know exactly what I believe so it is hard for me to express what I’m not sure of!
[quote]
Secondly, if with a conscience, it must have been important enough to be instilled in the first place. While that can turn into a pissing contest, I must say that without importance, we wouldnt have been created with it. We could have surely been made without it, so adding those certain attributes was intentional. You have to admit, we are very different than any other creation in all the world (and may I speculate universe). Life was supposed to be lived in some sort of harmony. That can be seen by the intermixing of animals and plants, food chains, oxygen and nitrogen mixtures, etc. [/quote]
I agree, there does seem to be an order to the world. Perhaps our ability to introspect and have a conscience is simply an abberation, but I’d like to think not. I’d like to think it’s for a purpose- again, possibly my ego coming into play.
[quote]
Despite my desire to continue with this, I admit its a difficult question for anyone to answer and my bedtime is well overdue. I’m not running with my tail between my legs, but thoughtful typing is well…just that and strenous. [/quote]
I don’t view it that way at all. I have an extreme upper hand in this debate as I have the ability to sit and pick holes and say, “prove this to me” about things that are ultimately unprovable! You’ve presented some good points and again I thank you for the politeness of the discourse. It seems as though after our opening salvos (where I think we were both expecting the other to be irrational and looking for a right), we’ve gotten down to some good, logical debate. I expect we’ll both learn a few things in the future.
Using your line of logic, I agree, it would be just… unnatural to think that Hitler and Mother Teresa would have the same rewards in the end.
However, I think we have to consider the possiblity that the human sense of right and wrong has been instilled through centuries of social influences. When it comes down to it, things that are “right” are things that help human beings survive and things that are “wrong” are things that are generally detrimental to human survival. This is the whole nature vs. nurture argument that has been rehashed many times by people many times smarter than me so I’m not really going to go there too much, just to say that I think both sides are plausible, thus we can’t neccessarily assume that God has instilled our sense of right and wrong, although it is a (strong?) possibility.
It is my opinion that religon exists as a means of controlling people’s thoughts and actions through fear of reprisal.
What are the differences between Scientology and Christianity other than the fact that we KNOW Scientology is made up and we don’t KNOW that Christianity is made up. I guess I kind of answered my own question there, but I guess what I’m asking (and I’d like to get some serious feedback) is why people who are of Christian faith have chosen to put their faith in that particular religon rather than others?
[quote]Tank53 wrote:
Headhunter wrote:
I know I’ll get flamed but…what the heck…
Even though I am a Christian, I know that the Bible is 4 books chosen from many, and that these books were chosen and written by men. There are bound to be lots of mistakes, lots of contradictions, but is that God’s fault?
If it does have faults, then I would say yes it is Gods fault. I know that there have been some posts on here proving the faulty of the Bible. Most of those have their own answers if people look for them. I know that most people get hung up on the Noah story or the Red Sea with Moses. But I’ve seen plenty of TV shows and writings to support the idea that they could have existed. But thats a whole other rub.
The question really isnt about whether or not the people wrote it with mistakes. Rather a better question is to wonder if God was powerful enough to keep the intergity of His own words. I mean whats the point in worshipping God if He can create the whole universe yet cannot keep the mistakes out of His own writings? [/quote]
Well, not arguing with you, just clarifying – imagine if you spoke to someone with a very low IQ and told them to write down what you said. Would they get it perfectly? Not likely. This is how I think of the Bible.
Ever see a movie called ‘PI’ (no, not American Pie:)? The main character starts to figure out the mind of God. It is so painful, he lobotomizes himself with a power drill. He was not yet ready to receive ‘the message’. I don’t think we are ready for the complete message.
[quote]Tank53 wrote:
Aleksandr wrote:
Here is a teaser: The crucifiction of Christ has an alternate ending! And it does not contradict what the disciples claim to have seen!
So what this is like Jesus 2: The less bloody ending? Claim? You’ll have to elaborate for all of us here.
[/quote]
Jesus climbs off the cross pulls out an Uzi and kills all the Romans.
Or since it is the Koran possibly Jesus detonates his explosive suicide crown of thorns.
[quote]Zap Branigan wrote:
Tank53 wrote:
Aleksandr wrote:
Here is a teaser: The crucifiction of Christ has an alternate ending! And it does not contradict what the disciples claim to have seen!
So what this is like Jesus 2: The less bloody ending? Claim? You’ll have to elaborate for all of us here.
Jesus climbs off the cross pulls out an Uzi and kills all the Romans.
Or since it is the Koran possibly Jesus detonates his explosive suicide thorn of crowns.[/quote]
If I remember correctly, Jesus was saved by bribing Pontius Pilate. (The Romans never allowed condemned men to be taken down from a cross – they had to hang there until they rotted away or carrion birds ate them.) Jesus escapes and later dies at Masada, or in India. Some legends also place him in Kashmir.
I didn’t write this, but thought some might be interested in these facts about the Bible.
If just 10 people today were picked who were from the same place, born around the same time, spoke the same language, and made about the same amount of money, and were asked to write on just one controversial subject, they would have trouble agreeing with each other. But the Bible stands alone. It was written over a period of 1,600 years by more than 40 writers from all walks of life. Some were fishermen; some were politicians. Others were generals or kings, shepherds or historians. They were from three different continents, and wrote in three different languages. They wrote on hundreds of controversial subjects yet they wrote with agreement and harmony. They wrote in dungeons, in temples, on beaches, and on hillsides, during peacetime and during war. Yet their words sound like they came from the same source. So even though 10 people today couldn’t write on one controversial subject and agree, God picked 40 different people to write the Bible?and it stands the test of time.
The invention of the printing press in 1450 made it possible to print books in large quantities. The first book printed was the Bible. Since then, the Bible has been read by more people and printed more times than any other book in history. By 1930, over one billion Bibles had been distributed by Bible societies around the world. By 1977, Bible societies alone were printing over 200 million Bibles each year, and this doesn’t include the rest of the Bible publishing companies. No one who is interested in knowing the truth can ignore such an important book.
The Bible has been translated into over 1,400 languages. No other book even comes close.
In ancient times, books were copied by hand onto manuscripts which were made from parchment and would decay over time. Ancient books are available today only because someone made copies of the originals to preserve them. For example, the original writings of Julius Caesar are no longer around. We know what he wrote only by the copies we have. Only 10 copies still exist, and they were made 1,000 years after he died. Only 600 copies of Homer’s The Iliad exist, made 1,300 years after the originals were written. No other book has as many copies of the ancient manuscripts as the Bible. In fact, there are over 24,000 copies of New Testament manuscripts, some written within 35 years of the writer’s death.
No other book has been so attacked throughout history as the Bible. In A.D. 300 the Roman emperor Diocletian ordered every Bible burned because he thought that by destroying the Scriptures he could destroy Christianity. Anyone caught with a Bible would be executed. But just 25 years later, the Roman emperor Constantine ordered that 50 perfect copies of the Bible be made at government expense. The French philosopher Voltaire, a skeptic who destroyed the faith of many people, boasted that within 100 years of his death, the Bible would disappear from the face of the earth. Voltaire died in 1728, but the Bible lives on. The irony of history is that 50 years after his death, the Geneva Bible Society moved into his former house and used his printing presses to print thousands of Bibles.
Contradictions in the Bible - Why Are They There?
The Bible has many seeming contradictions within its pages. For example, the four Gospels give four differing accounts as to what was written on the sign that hung on the cross. Matthew said, “This is Jesus the King of the Jews” (27:37). However, Mark contradicts that with “The King of the Jews” (15:26). Luke says something different: “This is the King of the Jews” (23:38), and John maintains that the sign said “Jesus of Nazareth the King of the Jews” (19:19).
Those who are looking for contradictions may therefore say, “See - the Bible is full of mistakes!” and choose to reject it entirely as being untrustworthy. However, those who trust God have no problem harmonizing the Gospels. There is no contradiction if the sign simply said, “This is Jesus of Nazareth the King of the Jews.”
The godly base their confidence on two truths: 1) “all Scripture is given by inspiration of God” (2 Timothy 3:16); and 2) an elementary rule of Scripture is that God has deliberately included seeming contradictions in His Word to “snare” the proud. He has “hidden” things from the “wise and prudent” and “revealed them to babes” (Luke 10:21), purposely choosing foolish things to confound the wise (1 Corinthians 1:27).
[quote]kroby wrote:
The politics forum has been inundated with religion? And it’s now spilling over to other forums?
I formally request a Religion Forum, so as to keep religion OUT of everything else. There are people here that do not want to be accosted. We do not want to lose members out of religious zealousness…
That is all.[/quote]
Strongly, strongly second.