Young & New to PLing, Need Advice

Hey guys,

So here I am probably near the tail end of starting strength by Rippetoe.

I’m 5’8 and about 200lbs in the morning.

Squat - 300lbs x 5 reps with a little room to put more on.
Bench - can’t get over 225 X 5 reps 3 sets

Dead - did 415lbs x 5 with straps. Can do 405 without straps for a single or so before grip bothers me.

OH press is a weak point (delts are my weak point) and I have yet to get a solid 3x5 of 120lbs (a few reps shy)

I was able to get my 415 deadlift by doing deads every other workout for about 8 weeks. Then I could only do 405 x 5 so I switched deads to once a week.

Today was my dead day. I ramped up to a 405 single (no straps) and strapped up with 425 … Didn’t budge. 415 … Didn’t budge … 405 again … Didn’t budge.

Decided to end the workout then and there. I have been just a little under the weather lately but still.

A few local powerlifters asked me to squat with them on Sunday. Since my squat is still climbing a little ill try to PR with them.

What I want to know is, should I alter my program to make deads even LESS frequent?

Right now I squat every workout, alternate bench and oh press each workout, and alternate dead, power cleans, and pullups every workout.

Should I start a new program?

5/3/1 would fit.

Absolutely you should start a new program. Unless I am reading it wrong, you are squatting every session, and deadlifting every other. This is way to much volume, and is sure to burn anyone out in a hurry.

Three training programs I have used with much success:

5/3/1

Westside Barbell for Skinny Basterds

Starting Strength

Read about those, and any others that are recommended. Find one you like, stick to it, eat, sleep and get strong.

uh, way to read dberg - he IS doing SS

You have a couple options

  1. keep doing SS but deload your deadlift and OHP
  2. switch to something different

You have many options depending on what your goal is. Assuming it is strength oriented:

  • Madcow/Bill Starr 5x5 Intermediate (grab it before Geocities closes!)
  • Stronglifts 5x5
  • WS4SB or WS4VB
  • 5/3/1

[quote]TheDudeAbides wrote:
uh, way to read dberg - he IS doing SS

You have an option

  • 5/3/1[/quote]

Sorry, I had to.

Whatever program you choose, make sure your form is good on all your lifts. A. You’re young, and if you’re looking to do this for a long time, you can’t beat yourself up. And B. Learn good technique to get the most out of your lifts, it’s hard to break bad habits to ‘re-learn’ a lift.

Also, have fun.

Before you just listen to what people say on this board, look around see whats out there, see whats new, whats old and how complicated it is and if it’s designed for elite or novice, etc.

If you asked a year ago, you probably wouldn’t get the responses you have now and a lot of routines are fads, I’e seen enough of that on this site.

Since you have an opportunity to lift with a dedicated group, do so. It’ll always help.

If I see one more 5/3/1 comment, I’m gonna puke… its not the best routine at all, especially for powerlifting…There are much better programs.

[quote]Synthetickiller wrote:
Before you just listen to what people say on this board, look around see whats out there, see whats new, whats old and how complicated it is and if it’s designed for elite or novice, etc.

If you asked a year ago, you probably wouldn’t get the responses you have now and a lot of routines are fads, I’e seen enough of that on this site.

Since you have an opportunity to lift with a dedicated group, do so. It’ll always help.

If I see one more 5/3/1 comment, I’m gonna puke… its not the best routine at all, especially for powerlifting…There are much better programs.[/quote]

Ok well I’m intrigued. I know the whole everything works for so long, but what would work better for longer?

[quote]Synthetickiller wrote:
Before you just listen to what people say on this board, look around see whats out there, see whats new, whats old and how complicated it is and if it’s designed for elite or novice, etc.

If you asked a year ago, you probably wouldn’t get the responses you have now and a lot of routines are fads, I’e seen enough of that on this site.

Since you have an opportunity to lift with a dedicated group, do so. It’ll always help.

If I see one more 5/3/1 comment, I’m gonna puke… its not the best routine at all, especially for powerlifting…There are much better programs.[/quote]

Not that I necessarily disagree or even have an opinion on whether or not 5/3/1 works (not having done it myself), howeve I have read some very good reviews and know people that have gotten great resuluts with it. What programs do you think are better and why?

If you have a good mentor, I think westside definitely has its place, especially for the geared lifter. I am not sure how well the routine works for a novice honestly since speed work is probably not necessary at all. Louie would have a much better answer than I could provide as a substitute for DE Days. Westside works well, the results speak for themselves.

I also think Sheiko works well, but anyone that reads my logs knows I feel this way b/c I’ve had good results. I think the lack of progressive overload and focus on higher intensity lifting over longer periods w/o a decrease in volume works. Oly lifters do this and sheiko is honestly just a modified OLY lifting protocol, especially considering most of your work sets are in the 80% range so you can handle bigger weights longer. You simply don’t burn out as quickly on it. I also like the idea of training 2 competition lifts in one workout. With proper deloading, I’ve moved my squat up consistently from 440x1 in a metal suit to 573x1 in just single ply briefs. Basically, I hit triple body weight on squat w/o using a full suit with a chronic back injury. The routine really prepares your body for volume and intensity if you wanted to sum it up in one sentence. The Russians, Ukranians, and Wade Hooper really show what the routine can do for your lifting ability and meet preparedness.

There are others, but I haven’t used them. If you look at what many lifters use, its not like 531 at all, since some use loading like 5x5 or 8x3 early on, like Dave Ricks, and then move onto a progressive load / lower volume closer to the meet, a very American / Western philosophy of lifting.

531 was designed for the non-geared lifter who wants in and out of the gym quickly. This is what Wendler states. He even states in the pdf that he does not know how to apply the routine to a geared lifter, and doesn’t have much of an interest to. I think a geared lifter would need to change the routine to have both raw and equipped days, especially 1/2 way through a cycle leading up to a meet where more gear and less raw is the focus. At least, the lift would have to have a 2nd squat movement, possibly a second deadlift movement, even for bench imo. Military press doesn’t correlate very well to powerlifting and it could be cut out altogether. I guess you could use that day as a second bench day, but then you’re changing around the routine quite a bit. I also think the volume as a whole is fairly low and could stand to be increased dramatically. I think thats why I say its not the best.

531 just seems to be focused for people who want to get back into shape, specifically raw, and just get strong while being in the gym for an hour or less. Get in, get out. Nothing wrong with that, but I think Wendler’s goal is to more-so to provide an easy to do routine for anyone who just wants to get stonger while keeping things simple and specifically applying that to people who can only spend an hour in the gym per lifting session.

I’ll sum it up, lack of volume. The more you train lifts (now, I don’t say heavier, just more often) the more of a technician you’ll become and you’ll be back to really do well at a meet. Working up to 5+ reps at the end or 3+ doesn’t really seem to fit into a powerlifting philsophy as much as almost a BBing philosophy to just stimulate the muscle to near fatigue.

I am not anti-531, hell, I’m trying to apply the routine to myself b/c I have issues w/ deadlift volume, but for joe blow who wants to get into powerlifting, you have to dedicate more time to just practice the lifts and that requires more sets.

I definitely agree with Syn. 5/3/1 is a great program however even Jim said in the book that he was tired of the in and outs of the suits and that he has a daughter and wants a life outside of the Gym.

This to me is a better “Starting Strength”. You are working a 90% of your actual Max and this is a safer, longer term lifting (Longer term as in gains, not lifting altogether) routine. I think that this program is more towards having a life outside of Powerlifting, while increasing your lifts incrementally over years, not months.

If he can recover and make progress from squatting 3 times per week, then he should keep squatting 3 times per week. He can definitely still make gains using abbreviated training and progressive overload.

Ask the guys you will squat with for advice, that will be 10 times better than random people telling you to do the fad program they’re on.

Switching programs altogether is never a good idea in the first place anyway. If these Sunday dudes don’t tell you what you want to hear, Rippetoe has written how to continue his program when you hit a wall. You back off then keep going, and when that stops working you do his next level program. That would be the most sensible solution you would get from the internet.

Buy Practical Programming (also by Rippetoe). It will tell you how to modify SS to keep making gains.

[quote]daraz wrote:
Ask the guys you will squat with for advice, that will be 10 times better than random people telling you to do the fad program they’re on.

Switching programs altogether is never a good idea in the first place anyway. If these Sunday dudes don’t tell you what you want to hear, Rippetoe has written how to continue his program when you hit a wall. You back off then keep going, and when that stops working you do his next level program. That would be the most sensible solution you would get from the internet.[/quote]

I disagree with one point.

If what you are doing is simply not giving you gains, typically you are doing it wrong or the routine does not optimally stimulate strength gains for you. I switched from westside and can’t see myself going back. Whilebi can apply it’s pricipkes, the lifting structure wasn’t working for me. At some point in your training, you mat just need a radical change, so don’t make some feel as if they are mated to whatever routine / philosophy they pick.

Look at routines from elite lifters that have worked for the average guy. This is why I mention skeiko and westside.

[quote]Synthetickiller wrote:


531 just seems to be focused for people who want to get back into shape, specifically raw, and just get strong while being in the gym for an hour or less. Get in, get out. Nothing wrong with that, but I think Wendler’s goal is to more-so to provide an easy to do routine for anyone who just wants to get stonger while keeping things simple and specifically applying that to people who can only spend an hour in the gym per lifting session. [/quote]

This is exactly why I do it and exactly the results I expect from it.

Good analysis of the other program btw

[quote]TheDudeAbides wrote:
Synthetickiller wrote:


531 just seems to be focused for people who want to get back into shape, specifically raw, and just get strong while being in the gym for an hour or less. Get in, get out. Nothing wrong with that, but I think Wendler’s goal is to more-so to provide an easy to do routine for anyone who just wants to get stonger while keeping things simple and specifically applying that to people who can only spend an hour in the gym per lifting session.

This is exactly why I do it and exactly the results I expect from it.

Good analysis of the other program btw[/quote]

X2

Hey guys,

So I think I’m going to take on a sort of westside template.

Squat Day with the PLers was more of a ME day, as was the bench day after that. I did a DE squat and bench day since then, with some added grip work ( a weakness of mine) I’m sure they only squat once a week but I need more than that at this point in my development.

Still they are awesome guys and great coaches, gonna train with them as much as I can. They are even going to lend me old gear!

Thanks for all the advice everybody, it gave me a lot of insight.

Good decision, and best of luck.

UPDATE: So the westside template is working for me with these powerlifters coaching me to bigger PRs!

I’m doing deads on my squat DE day doing volume one week and intensity (ME) the next.

My lifts have increased to:

Squat: 365lbs for an easy double
Bench: 275 x 1
Dead; 475 x 1 (almost had a 500 but couldn’t lock out)

I’m really starting to appreciate training with people a lot stronger than me, its made all the difference.