[quote]on edge wrote:
pushharder wrote:
on edge wrote:
Tiribulus wrote:
Tirib, You’re obviously very knowledgeable about these dogs and I enjoy reading your posts very much. However, you are caught up in the glorification of these dogs and your not thinking straight.
Dog fighting is brutal and barbaric. It doesn’t matter if the dogs like to fight or if the people are wearing suits or are crack heads. The “sport” is outlawed for good reason. If a dog enjoys fighting, he needs to be protected from himself and those who would encourage him to fight. He should also not be allowed to breed. A dog bread to protect is one thing, a dog bread to enjoy fighting is another.
You just inadvertently made the case for outlawing the UFC, boxing, and for that matter, the NFL. No, don’t say, “But that’s different”, because in all three sports the participants enjoy fighting, need to be protected from themselves, and I guess, should not be allowed to breed.
It’s different because people have a choice.[/quote]
[quote]wsk wrote:
Tiribulus wrote:
The conditioning period was known as a “keep” and would impress olympic tri-athletes.
Interesting. What sort of stuff did they do? Mainly treadmill and springpole? I suppose it must have been like training human fighters - a little of everything.
I keep coming back to Stratton because he’s one of the few old time experts, who is willing to talk openly. He knew most of the real fanciers of his generation personally, though not an actual pit man himself. He must have some on information on keep methods there, but I haven’t looked. I’m honestly not up to typing that much.
Whenever I am playing with my roommates lab and she gets to biting too hard I just push my fist down her throat. Then she cant breathe and she lets go. If I kept my fist shoved down her throat though I suppose it would choke her. Thats how I would deal with it.
I saw on the local news the other night, a little girl was saved from a registered sex offender who was breaking into her house by none other than the family pet…a pit bull. The dog attacked the intruder and kept him pinned down until the police arrived.
On a side note, the person who mentioned spaniels. Weve owned several Boykin spaniels, and for their size and build (bred to be retrievers and to do well in small boats…primarily used for duck hunting) they are also amazingly athletic dogs. Our current Boykin, Vince has jumped over just about every fence we have tried to put him in short of 6 foot chain link.
Sorry, I’ll read the rest of the thread later - but the best way I’ve read to deal with a dog came from fiction. From R.A. Salvatore - jump straight up, and land on the dog’s neck. If I absolutely wanted to kill a dog, that is what I would do.
[quote]Scotacus wrote:
Tiribulus wrote:
Scotacus wrote:
Trib, what about mace?
I have not found you to be entirely without reason in this exchange, but what, pray tell, do you mean by this?
You know - mace. YOu spray it the dog’s eyes temporarily blinding it. It works on people, thought it might work on dogs.[/quote]
OOPS! Since you were asking me about the legalities of dog attacks for a while there I thought you might be asking something like how should the use of mace be regulated.
Chemical eye irritants will allow you to escape assuming you could get them into the eyes before being bitten, again depending on the dog.
A muttly street dog is much more likely to allow that and also to retreat once sprayed. A well trained service dog will disarm an assailant in most cases with enough speed to not allow a well aimed shot if they allow one at all. Once they have a bite a sufficiently constituted (and trained) animal will not relinquish even while blinded.
Through no encouragement of ours Finster converted our backyard into a wildlife graveyard killing every living thing that dared tread on his domain. Racoons, squirrels, possums and one unlucky skunk who managed to spray him square in the face at point blank range.
Despite being totally blinded (temporarily of course) he still dispatched the poor critter forthwith and spent the next several hours with watering bloodshot eyes.
For the record, no dog (or man) is invincible, but most people underestimate both their tenacity and ability to be trained to deal with adversity.
Also, I don’t want to leave the impression that I consider the contemporary APBT to be an unworthy breed. Quite to the contrary. Even in his present diluted state he is far superior to other breeds IMO, assuming a good specimen which cannot be determined by appearance alone. Appearance is the least likely trait to tell you the character of a dog.
If you want to hate on somebody who truly ruins dogs hate on the AKC who will breed a dog solely for show and certain arbitrarily desirable physical characteristics despite whatever other consequences to the breed.
The English Bulldog is a perfect example. That poor little guy has been bred for so long for wide shoulders and narrow hips that they can’t even give birth without a C-section any more. The once awesome German Shepard has been bred for a sloping hind section to the point where dysplasia is common. That’s OK though, it’s the AKC. They have shows on TV and at least their useless dogs won’t fight.
[quote]Tiribulus wrote:
The English Bulldog is a perfect example. That poor little guy has been bred for so long for wide shoulders and narrow hips that they can’t even give birth without a C-section any more. The once awesome German Shepard has been bred for a sloping hind section to the point where dysplasia is common. That’s OK though, it’s the AKC. They have shows on TV and at least their useless dogs won’t fight.[/quote]
Well yes but their appearances make people feel good and they are oh so pretty. It is not cruelty if it makes people feel safe and fuzzy. Things are only bad if people don’t understand it.
BTW, just wanted to say I’ve really enjoyed your posts on this thread. How did you get started in dog training?
[quote]Tiribulus wrote:
EmilyQ wrote:
<<< Assuming that I’m not prepared to engage an approaching dog unless it seems friendly enough that there wouldn’t be much worry about escalation anyway, would best practice for me be to drop the lead? Or is having it attached to the collar still problematic? >>>
It’s not possible to lay out rules for how to handle situations for people with a less than expert grasp of dog behavior. [/quote]
You remind me of Jack Nicholson in A Few Good Men. (“You can’t HANDLE the truth!”)
[quote]My rule is (for average dog owners in general) better safe than sorry and any course of action is justifiable if it’s done in the interest of human safety. If somebody’s dog is under assault from another dog and letting go, in other words abandoning the dog, is what they feel is necessary to come away safely then so be it.
We can argue about it later. I would rather see that than some over affectionate owner wind up with a piece of their, or their children’s face removed in the name of being an animal lover.[/quote]
Over affectionate? Do you mean to insult me? You don’t know me. How would you know to what degree I am affectionate? I’m asking if escalation will be less likely if I drop the lead, or would I need to unhook it from the collar. Abandoning my dog? I’m trying to prevent harm to everyone involved. Why the dripping scorn? Has there not been enough submissive posturing in this thread to satisfy you?
And what are we arguing about later? My dog is very nearly the same size I am. You outweigh me by more than 100 pounds, Tiribulus. That doesn’t make me over affectionate. It doesn’t make me a foolish “animal lover,” and it doesn’t make me stupid. It makes me…female. My dog is well behaved. My dog understands both verbal and hand commands. My dog is a delight. He ignores small, yappy dogs and engages playfully with larger ones. I am not calling “Charlie! CHARLIE! Charlie?” That’s someone else.
No kidding. That’s why I didn’t bother to request a detailed manual for Life With Dog and instead merely asked, drop the damn lead, or don’t?
[quote]I’ve taken a my share of live accidental bites (and have the scars to prove it). Some were my fault and some were poor handling. They were all training situations. I’ve never been bitten on the street. In any case, even with plenty of experience and expertise as well as other guys there with even more than me it’s tough to instantly come up with a plan to minimize the situation nevermind trying to tell an average owner what they should do.
[/quote]
I’ve been bitten, too. I got between a couple of friendly dogs and one of them apparently thought I was another dog on her flank and turned and snapped. It hurt. It was scary. This is why I’m interested in the old “drop the lead?” thing.
I also watched a “friendly” chow attack my husband. We were staying with the owner, my friend, and I woke up early one morning and got into bed with her to talk (to TALK, you pervs). When my husband woke up and came to the doorway of her bedroom the dog went after him. He didn’t manage to injure my husband, who grabbed the sides of his face, but he did bite my friend when she went to pull him away. (That dog bit twice more before she put him down. She’s one of the owners I take issue with. It was a point of contention between us.)
So I have a healthy awareness of dogs as animals, not cartoon characters or children. My dog is polite and well-behaved, and I feel that I have control over him, but that control has limitations and I recognize that. I am not his alpha, and he’s intensely protective of me when we’re alone, which suggests to me that his instinct is overriding my control (alike to my friend and her chow).
At any rate, my question was, if approached by an unleashed dog when mine is on lead, and that dog is of a size to pose a threat to either myself or my (large) dog, should I release the dog?
[quote]Tiribulus wrote:
on edge wrote:
pushharder wrote:
on edge wrote:
Tiribulus wrote:
Tirib, You’re obviously very knowledgeable about these dogs and I enjoy reading your posts very much. However, you are caught up in the glorification of these dogs and your not thinking straight.
Dog fighting is brutal and barbaric. It doesn’t matter if the dogs like to fight or if the people are wearing suits or are crack heads. The “sport” is outlawed for good reason. If a dog enjoys fighting, he needs to be protected from himself and those who would encourage him to fight. He should also not be allowed to breed. A dog bread to protect is one thing, a dog bread to enjoy fighting is another.
You just inadvertently made the case for outlawing the UFC, boxing, and for that matter, the NFL. No, don’t say, “But that’s different”, because in all three sports the participants enjoy fighting, need to be protected from themselves, and I guess, should not be allowed to breed.
It’s different because people have a choice.
You just plain “don’t get it”[/quote]
This isn’t Quantum Physics. I get, as you said, these dogs love to fight and it would be cruel to not let them. This is an issue like abortion or religion. Each side can “get” the other but still disagree.
Regardless of how awesome these dogs are, I think it’s cruel to breed qualities into a dog where they have to harm themselves to be happy. You don’t.
If people want to breed these dogs for useful purposes like bull fighting I’m all for it. That was cool in the video linked previously, how the dog saved the bull fighter. When people breed them to fight each other, mostly for human entertainment, for me, that crosses the line.
By the way, all religions are silly and abortion is wrong. (sorry, I couldn’t resist)
true fuckin story, I was about 10-12 yrs old and my dad and I had been at a friends house no more than 10 doors down watching some NFL. When we left he grabed a can of beer for the road, (the 10 house walk). Low and behold the story unfolds.
Here comes fuckin satan himself, big ass teeth and all. Thank god my pops was a hell of a baseball player. He held back to the last second, then let that budwisre fly. He had not yet opened it so he hit that fuckin pitt bull so hard he layed it out!
The reality is that owning a dog aggressive breed (The APBT, SBT or AST) or a man aggressive dog like the Rottweiler …
[/quote]
Good thread. This is as far as I got and I have to say maybe you need to do some research before you make such statements.
Rotties by nature are not “man aggressive”, they are a large, very powerful, confident, calm, and one of the smartest breed of dogs. Having said that, they are like all the rest of the molosser breeds…without proper training and socialization, all their positive traits can make them into a very dangerous ‘pet’ in the wrong hands.
[quote]combatwombat wrote:
Give the dog your weak arm and bash him the throat with the other.
At least thats what they taught my dad in shore patrol school in the navy. You might also want to take into consideration this was in the early 60’s.
But it makes sense to me. [/quote]
If I remember correctly, they told the Army Rangers at Normandy to let the dog bite your weak arm, then wrap your strong arm around its shoulders and snap the neck. Apparently, they didn’t think the Nazis would resort to sending the dogs out, but crazy’s crazy.
…i’m not a dog lover at all, but have a healthy respect for them. But if a shepherd can do this to you: http://www.israeldogs.com/videoclips/knpv2005.wmv taken at dutch championships in 2005, what can a pit do? And that’s a rhetorical question…
I’ve heard you only need like 40 lbs of pressure to snap a dogs jaw or some pretty low number. So I would first bash his nose and try to gouge eyes, then if he bites try to snap his jaw.
[quote]Bujo wrote:
Forget the Pit Bull. Its the rising tide of wild Yorkies I’m afraid of. It’s a massive furry blob flowing down the street. No Where To Run. No Where To Hide. Can only hope to climb to higher ground. Alas there are no trees. Dammit there are no trees.
I can feel them flowing over my feet. Tiny needles digging into my skin, devouring my flesh like thousands of furry piranha. I’m Melting. I’m Melting like the wicked witch. Devoured by 12 ounce loofahs with legs.
Be Afraid. BE VERY AFRAID.[/quote]
This is the funniest damn thing I’ve read all week. Thanks for the lift.
