You Get What You Pay For

Off Topic
61

[quote]tpa wrote:
Rockscar wrote:
tpa wrote:
Rockscar wrote:
Also I’ve found that the Mexican culture does not really value education as much as Americans, so parents are not involved and as encouraging with regard to education and success.

How can you say that “MEXICANS DON"T VALUE EDUCATION”? That is a racist stereotype! I could argue that Mexicans value education more than Americans.

[/quote]

Saying that Mexicans don’t value education may be no more racist than saying Americans don’t. He could have been referring to the country of Mexico. I don’t care whether he was incorrect or not. That wasn’t racist.

62

[quote]folly wrote:
If my job is part time, although I get paid the same hourly, should I get paid as much as a full time employee?

My point here is that we say, “Pay the teachers an equal salary.” But what we should be saying is, “Pay the teachers more than the average worker.”[/quote]

Since when does the average worker matter? Could the average worker do the job of a highly skilled teacher? If you want very skilled people, you pay for them. If you don’t, they’ll leave. Talk all you want about how they’re getting paid more than the average worker, they still have no incentive to teach your kids.

63

I’m currently a high school junior. I attend a public school that doesn’t get funding and fail all the state standards because there is a certain group of mainly Mexicans that don’t show up to take the test. Most these kids are in gangs and have GPA’s of 0.0.

My high school has about 2,500 students, and the students come from Atherton, one of the richer cities in the world, East Palo Alto, which currently has been swamped with gang members and violence, and other suburbs from the area.

The kids from the suburbs have no issues getting the grades and scores they need, but the kids from the ghetto that actually want to do something with their lives struggle to get the grades they need. The lack of funding caused by twenty gang members that don’t show up to a test causes our school to have 30-40 students per classroom, and the students that do need the extra attention don’t get it.

The No Child Left Behind Act is ruining situations for some students that have aspirations beyond gangs.

Also, there are definitely good teachers out there. My school sends many more students to prestigious colleges than the local private schools that cost 20 grand per year.

One of our teachers just won California Educator of the Year for our region, and I luckily have him this year. The majority of his classes are with students like the ones I described earlier, living in the ghetto and trying to go to college.

Hopefully what I just said made sense.

Fuck the NCLBA.

64

[quote]Rockscar wrote:
Last nite at the Back to School meeting they had a board where reading was ranked with each student having a magnet with their name on it that moves from 0% to 100% throughout the school year. This means that as the child progresses, they move their name into the next column as they advance. This is on the wall for all to see.

One parent said “Well if you have a child with lower reading skills than the others, won’t they feel bad if their name is down lower on the list?”

The insinuation was that she did not like that part of the teachers class because it might make her child feel like an underachiever.

GIVE ME A FUCKING BREAK! The problem was obvious!!! Lazy parents equall underachieving kids.

This parent needs to get a clue, get involved and teach her kid life skills to compete in life…but alas no, it won’t be that way.

The teachers solution to that was to give her child in specific a lowered expectation to get to 100%. FUCK!!!

This kid has been set up for failure. Very sad.[/quote]

Damn, Rock, well said. I remember a similar setup when I was in the 1st grade involving math tests. Each student had a little paper race car with their name on it pinned to a large cork board with lines running vertically, showing which test you passed.

They started with +1 (all problems on this quiz were whatever number plus 1=), then -1, then plus 2, -2, etc. up to -10 They were timed quizzes and you could only miss something like 5 out of 40 to pass. Each time you passed a quiz, your race car moved up a space closer to the finish line.

The teacher gave these tests until everyone had their car over the finish line, and the incentive was if you completed it early, you could basically just relax and have 10 minutes or so of free time each day while everyone else was taking the quiz.

Sure, it was a little nerve-wracking, but the pressure was positive and if anyone was really lagging behind, the teacher would make sure he/she got some extra help.

Didn’t seem like any big deal to us at the time; nobody had to go on anti-depressants or see a shrink for PTSD because their math race car lagged behind, and I never heard of any parent decrying the practice (although the circles one travels in at age 7 are pretty small).

My daughter is nowhere near school age, but stuff like what rockscar posted still disgusts/scares the shit out of me.

65

[quote]grew7 wrote:
Saying that Mexicans don’t value education may be no more racist than saying Americans don’t.[/quote]

My point exactly.

What?
MEXICANS = a native or inhabitant of Mexico

And when you make a sweeping statement (especially a negative one) about an entire culture that is racist.

66

[quote]Boles wrote:
I’m currently a high school junior. I attend a public school that doesn’t get funding and fail all the state standards because there is a certain group of mainly Mexicans that don’t show up to take the test. Most these kids are in gangs and have GPA’s of 0.0.

My high school has about 2,500 students, and the students come from Atherton, one of the richer cities in the world, East Palo Alto, which currently has been swamped with gang members and violence, and other suburbs from the area.

The kids from the suburbs have no issues getting the grades and scores they need, but the kids from the ghetto that actually want to do something with their lives struggle to get the grades they need. The lack of funding caused by twenty gang members that don’t show up to a test causes our school to have 30-40 students per classroom, and the students that do need the extra attention don’t get it.

The No Child Left Behind Act is ruining situations for some students that have aspirations beyond gangs.

Also, there are definitely good teachers out there. My school sends many more students to prestigious colleges than the local private schools that cost 20 grand per year.

One of our teachers just won California Educator of the Year for our region, and I luckily have him this year. The majority of his classes are with students like the ones I described earlier, living in the ghetto and trying to go to college.

Hopefully what I just said made sense.

Fuck the NCLBA.[/quote]

You made absolutley perfect sense; thanks for the inside perspective. I’m very sorry to read about what your school and fellow classmates are having to endure, but for what it’s worth, judging from your very articulate post, you should have no problem accomplishing anything in life you set your mind to. Good luck, son.

67

[quote]tpa wrote:
grew7 wrote:
Saying that Mexicans don’t value education may be no more racist than saying Americans don’t.

My point exactly.

He could have been referring to the country of Mexico. I don’t care whether he was incorrect or not. That wasn’t racist.

What?
MEXICANS = a native or inhabitant of Mexico

And when you make a sweeping statement (especially a negative one) about an entire culture that is racist.[/quote]

No.

You just said yourself, that a Mexican is a native or inhabitant of Mexico. I am not of Mexican heritage, but if I were a permanent resident of Mexico, I would be a Mexican.

His statement would not be racist, because I am not of Mexican heritage. It would still be directed at me because I would be a Mexican citizen, but that does not make it racist.

He could have been referring to Mexican culture, not race. Making a sweeping statement about an entire culture is not racist. Another example is that you can say that Americans are fat without being a racist.

From dictionary.com:
rac‧ism  /ˈreɪsɪzəm/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[rey-siz-uhm] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation
?noun

  1. a belief or doctrine that inherent differences among the various human races determine cultural or individual achievement, usually involving the idea that one’s own race is superior and has the right to rule others.

  2. a policy, system of government, etc., based upon or fostering such a doctrine; discrimination.

  3. hatred or intolerance of another race or other races.

68

[quote]tpa wrote:
Why not get rid of the SATs and base college entrance on the student’s high school average. Or perhaps their average in senior classes but must include 1 math, 1 science, 1 English, 1 History/Geography, etc.

Here in Ontario, Canada that is how we determine entrance to university. We actually have confidence that our high school teachers will provide an accurate representation of a students academic performance. Usually students will require a mark that is at least in the mid 70s to get acceptance into a university BA program.

Just seems like the US could save a lot of money and heartache if they got rid of the SATs and put more confidence in their education system.

[/quote]

Sure they could save a lot of money, but I’m also sure there are a lot of public-private partnerships at stake with that proposition, meaning that politicians capable of reforming the system are probably receiving a lot of contributions from companies that depend on those government contracts.

Private interest: 1
Public interest: 0

Beef

69

[quote]TKL.ca wrote:
Meanwhile, the smart and average kids are bored as hell and due to lack of attention for their needs, they become unmotivated and apathetic towards learning.
[/quote]

{slowly raises hand} Yep, that was me in high school, and I was in all honors classes!

I did only the minimum I had to to graduate because, hell, at graduation I got the same piece of paper as the nimrods in “special class” that got to be in one room all day, fuck off, and blast the radio while the aging hippie “teacher” stared at a spot on the wall.

Basically, if you saw a counselor and threatened to drop out, you got an easy-as-shit free ride like I described above as an incentive to stay in school. kroby summed it up best: “get a trophy for showing up”, and this is exactly what was happening fifteen years ago!

I guess I shouldn’t be surprised at what is occuring today (see rockscar’s post), as these dipshits with their toilet paper diplomas have more than likely reproduced and expect no more from their kids than for them to get by with the same minimal effort. After all, mom and dad beat the system, why shouldn’t junior?

70

The NCLBA does not work. I went to public schools in which at the time was the richest county in the nation. I went to Fairfax County Schools. Its a DC suburb, but the whole county is the size of the state of Deleware.

Since graduating, the county has become like the 3rd or 4th richest county. FCPS is the largest school system in the nation, with the most students and the most funding. If you don’t believe me check my facts. My dad is a supervisor for the school system. My mom, my brother and myself all came up in this school system.

That being said, the high school I attended, rather than work with the slower, more needy or challenged students, would expel them before standardized test time to maintain their average. Virginia has the SOL or Standards of Learning test that everyone has to pass. They boast their great education system by these test scores.

Every year, they would teach the SOL test, and only the SOL test. After teaching the SOL test, they would report which kids would not pass it, and those kids would magically go missing before the test time. This happened every year. Racial or Migrant status made no difference to the expulsion.

The adminstration of the school would find a reason to expel the underacheiver before test time. By not having that student enrolled anymore, they would no longer have to report those scores for their SOL’s or to the NCLBA.

Before anyone asks how can they do that, I challenge you to tell me one person who never did anything wrong in high school. I’m not talking about skipping classes perce, but anything. The way the code of conduct for FCPS is written, they may discipline you, with possible expulsion for any activity committed on or off school grounds, and without proof.

They told every student, every year, that you could be expelled simply for suspicion of drugs, alcohol, weapons or gang activity. Or the possesion of a look alike substance, ie creatine or sugar. They could also discipline you, with potential expulsion, for activites off school grounds, parties, hanging out, anywhere.

Their rationale behind this, is those activites could come back to be a problem on school grounds. In practice, by being at a party with alcohol present on saturday, could get you expelled monday morning if the school found out. This did happen in practice more times than I could count.

The NCLBA should be called the SCNLBA. Selective children not left behind. The school system here, being the biggest and best funded in the nation, will expel the dificult cases before putting in the effort to help them.

71

[quote]tpa wrote:
Why not get rid of the SATs and base college entrance on the student’s high school average. Or perhaps their average in senior classes but must include 1 math, 1 science, 1 English, 1 History/Geography, etc.

Here in Ontario, Canada that is how we determine entrance to university. We actually have confidence that our high school teachers will provide an accurate representation of a students academic performance. Usually students will require a mark that is at least in the mid 70s to get acceptance into a university BA program.

Just seems like the US could save a lot of money and heartache if they got rid of the SATs and put more confidence in their education system.

[/quote]

Though the SAT tells little about an applicant, it has many benefits to people that do well on it. The growing applicant pool has made competition so cutthroat that even a perfect gpa won’t guarentee you into an elite school. A high SAT score will add a lil distinction to an application and open up opportunities for merit financial aid.

72

[quote]Boles wrote:
The lack of funding caused by twenty gang members that don’t show up to a test causes our school to have 30-40 students per classroom, and the students that do need the extra attention don’t get it.

The No Child Left Behind Act is ruining situations for some students that have aspirations beyond gangs.

[/quote]

First off, NCLB folded the Class Size Reduction Act into Title II Part A. That means title II money can be used for class size reduction. That’s something like $3 BILLION.

Second, just hiring more teachers in order reduce class size DOES NOT improve education. It’s like the relationship between decent quarterbacks and expansion in the NFL. There are already too few highly qualified teachers.

Hiring a bunch of mediocre teachers to serve as glorified babysitters just so your class size is below 20 isn’t a solution. My classes generally average around 33 kids. We get a waiver from the state to allow us to exceed the state mandated number (25, I think).

I’d much rather have my child in a classromm with 49 other kids and a teacher who can teach over a class of 10 kids and a typical teacher.

Finally, California in particular has shown the futility of focusing on class size:

[quote]
Findings from California’s class-size reduction initiative confirm some of these critics’ concerns. Under a law passed in 1996, the state provided districts with $650 per student for each K-3 classroom with 20 or fewer students. An evaluation of this class-size reduction initiative found that class-size reduction was associated with declines in teacher qualifications and inequitable distribution of credentialed teachers; i.e., as districts reduced class size in K-3 classrooms, they hired more teachers without full credentials, most of whom were hired by schools serving the most disadvantaged students. Additionally, although parents said they liked the reduced size classes, and teachers reported giving students more individualized attention in these classes, teachers did not report covering more curriculum as a result of small class size, nor did the evaluation link reduced class size to changes in student achievement (Bohrnstedt & Stecher, 2002).[/quote]

Finally, PARENTS keep kids out of gangs. Not school districts. Not the federal government.

73

[quote]TrainerinDC wrote:

…That being said, the high school I attended, rather than work with the slower, more needy or challenged students, would expel them before standardized test time to maintain their average.

Virginia has the SOL or Standards of Learning test that everyone has to pass. They boast their great education system by these test scores.

Every year, they would teach the SOL test, and only the SOL test. After teaching the SOL test, they would report which kids would not pass it, and those kids would magically go missing before the test time. This happened every year. Racial or Migrant status made no difference to the expulsion.

The adminstration of the school would find a reason to expel the underacheiver before test time. By not having that student enrolled anymore, they would no longer have to report those scores for their SOL’s or to the NCLBA.

Before anyone asks how can they do that, I challenge you to tell me one person who never did anything wrong in high school. I’m not talking about skipping classes perce, but anything. The way the code of conduct for FCPS is written, they may discipline you, with possible expulsion for any activity committed on or off school grounds, and without proof.

They told every student, every year, that you could be expelled simply for suspicion of drugs, alcohol, weapons or gang activity. Or the possesion of a look alike substance, ie creatine or sugar. They could also discipline you, with potential expulsion, for activites off school grounds, parties, hanging out, anywhere.

Their rationale behind this, is those activites could come back to be a problem on school grounds. In practice, by being at a party with alcohol present on saturday, could get you expelled monday morning if the school found out. This did happen in practice more times than I could count. [/quote]

I don’t doubt that you believe this is happening, but it has nothing to do with NCLB. It may help the local school districts look good WITHIN the state, but not accounting for these kids would very quickly fuck the federal funding the state and local districts receive under NCLB.

These minority kids are exactly who NCLB protects. In the past they could just be expelled or forgotten with no consequences. Now these kids are accounted for. Schools receive funding based on average attendance. These numbers ARE balanced against the numbers of test takers.

Further, kids are tracked for years now. Drop out/expulsion rates have to be within acceptable guidelines. These large numbers of kids don’t just disappear from the schools roster at test time.

74

Maybe not now, you could be right. But when I was in high school, graduated in 1999, this was a common practice.

75

I dont belive low pay, reducing benefits, cutting retirement, lazy teachers, or non english speaking students are the reason why test scores are going down. When I am in school I am not being taught the test. The test is just damn hard.

My calculus class does not help me at all with the SAT math section. I passed that class with flying colors but yet I cant get above a 500 on the SAT math section. Almost all of the questions were word problems that require you to read the question very carefully.

I have trouble reading them therefore I have to read them about 2-3 times each before I even understand what the problem is asking.

The reading section is even worse. Imagine just sitting for 4 hours just reading and reading, trying to find mistakes, interpret shit, and figure out math problems. The longest brake you get is 15 minutes.

It just tires you out and by the end you just want to get it over with. I belive that the reason the scores are decreasing is that students are forced to take a longer, more difficult test.

Standerized tests are just pieces of shit and should not hold as much wieght when determining how smart someone is.

76

[quote]WhiteLable412 wrote:

Standerized tests are just pieces of shit and should not hold as much wieght when determining how smart someone is. [/quote]

I agree with this completely. I felt that way in high school and still do. Taking a test at the end of high school does not give anyone a real world picture of how you will do in college directly. I remember Dr. Ben Carson speaking to my school one year. He nearly flunked out of school. He is also one of the world’s most well known brain surgeons currently.

77

[quote]Boles wrote:
I’m currently a high school junior. I attend a public school that doesn’t get funding and fail all the state standards because there is a certain group of mainly Mexicans that don’t show up to take the test. Most these kids are in gangs and have GPA’s of 0.0.

My high school has about 2,500 students, and the students come from Atherton, one of the richer cities in the world, East Palo Alto, which currently has been swamped with gang members and violence, and other suburbs from the area.

The kids from the suburbs have no issues getting the grades and scores they need, but the kids from the ghetto that actually want to do something with their lives struggle to get the grades they need. The lack of funding caused by twenty gang members that don’t show up to a test causes our school to have 30-40 students per classroom, and the students that do need the extra attention don’t get it.

The No Child Left Behind Act is ruining situations for some students that have aspirations beyond gangs.

Also, there are definitely good teachers out there. My school sends many more students to prestigious colleges than the local private schools that cost 20 grand per year.

One of our teachers just won California Educator of the Year for our region, and I luckily have him this year. The majority of his classes are with students like the ones I described earlier, living in the ghetto and trying to go to college.

Hopefully what I just said made sense.

Fuck the NCLBA.[/quote]

For a HS kid you look like you figured it out. Good thought process, grammar, etc. I’ve been through East Palo Alto and it’s definately scarey.

Kids…take a look and learn!

78

[quote]tpa wrote:
grew7 wrote:
Saying that Mexicans don’t value education may be no more racist than saying Americans don’t.

My point exactly.

He could have been referring to the country of Mexico. I don’t care whether he was incorrect or not. That wasn’t racist.

What?
MEXICANS = a native or inhabitant of Mexico

And when you make a sweeping statement (especially a negative one) about an entire culture that is racist.

[/quote]

Again, you confuse racism with stereotyping.

Either way, most of th Mexican culture does not value education PLAIN AND SIMPLE! Please show me that the majority do.

Get over it.

79

[quote]Rockscar wrote:
Boles wrote:
I’m currently a high school junior. I attend a public school that doesn’t get funding and fail all the state standards because there is a certain group of mainly Mexicans that don’t show up to take the test. Most these kids are in gangs and have GPA’s of 0.0.

My high school has about 2,500 students, and the students come from Atherton, one of the richer cities in the world, East Palo Alto, which currently has been swamped with gang members and violence, and other suburbs from the area.

The kids from the suburbs have no issues getting the grades and scores they need, but the kids from the ghetto that actually want to do something with their lives struggle to get the grades they need. The lack of funding caused by twenty gang members that don’t show up to a test causes our school to have 30-40 students per classroom, and the students that do need the extra attention don’t get it.

The No Child Left Behind Act is ruining situations for some students that have aspirations beyond gangs.

Also, there are definitely good teachers out there. My school sends many more students to prestigious colleges than the local private schools that cost 20 grand per year.

One of our teachers just won California Educator of the Year for our region, and I luckily have him this year. The majority of his classes are with students like the ones I described earlier, living in the ghetto and trying to go to college.

Hopefully what I just said made sense.

Fuck the NCLBA.

For a HS kid you look like you figured it out. Good thought process, grammar, etc. I’ve been through East Palo Alto and it’s definately scarey.

Kids…take a look and learn!

[/quote]

For a high school kid, his writing is better than many of the adults on this site. Good luck.

80

[quote]tpa wrote:
PGJ wrote:
Get computers out of the schools, now, and put the chalk back in the teacher’s hand.

This is a stupid statement! How do expect to produce citizens that can contribute and be competitive in today’s high tech economy? Kids need to be exposed to more technology in the classroom if anything.

[/quote]

Just about every kid these days has a computer in their house now. Between that and iPods, cellphones, and all other manner of digital crap kids absolutely can’t live without…I think they get enough exposure to technology.

Computers are so common, that it’s not even considered technology now. They are more like appliances (TV, oven, diswasher, computer, microwave…) Schools aren’t using computers to teach technology, they are using them to teach math and reading and social studies…A lot of the curriculum now is computer based self-paced instruction.

It’s not like in the 80’s where we learned how to actually write basic computer programs in the computer labs. Computers are teachers now.