You Get What You Pay For

Off Topic
41

[quote]Rockscar wrote:
Last nite at the Back to School meeting they had a board where reading was ranked with each student having a magnet with their name on it that moves from 0% to 100% throughout the school year. This means that as the child progresses, they move their name into the next column as they advance. This is on the wall for all to see.

One parent said “Well if you have a child with lower reading skills than the others, won’t they feel bad if their name is down lower on the list?”

The insinuation was that she did not like that part of the teachers class because it might make her child feel like an underachiever.

GIVE ME A FUCKING BREAK! The problem was obvious!!! Lazy parents equall underachieving kids.

This parent needs to get a clue, get involved and teach her kid life skills to compete in life…but alas no, it won’t be that way.

The teachers solution to that was to give her child in specific a lowered expectation to get to 100%. FUCK!!!

This kid has been set up for failure. Very sad.[/quote]

I am beginning to think that “LIFE” is being set up that way for an entire generation. It is like we are raising an entire generation of Walmart cashiers.

Fuck. “Do you want fries with that?” will be the national anthem.

42

[quote]folly wrote:
So by your reasoning, because the administrators and teachers decided to teach the test, instead of teaching the skills, the NCLB system is bad? [/quote]

It’s not my reasoning, it’s what the system put in place by NCLB produces.

It might be modified to work, if the tests weren’t standardized and covered the whole gamut of the course material, the best way to ace the test would be to properly teach the skills.

In the current implementation, the tests are standardized, and worse, known in advance by the teachers and the administrators. It is in their interest (salary and bonus wise) to make sure those tests have the highest marks possible.

So while NCLB might have noble intentions, the way it’s implemented sucks. It sucks so badly as to produce the opposite effect than was intended.

Your training analogy bears little relation to the situation, but let’s work with it anyway:

You have a base salary of $30,000. I’ll give you a bonus of 10$ for each repetition you complete and 100$ for each set. Seeing as you can do a lot more sets and reps of curls than squats, what result should I expect?

My reward system sucks because it rewards the wrong results. NCLB has the same problem. It pays according to test results and not skills taught.

[quote]I mean you look like you are working out, but you are avoiding the hard stuff.

Is it wrong to expect teachers to teach skills and not a test?[/quote]

No, it’s entirely adequate. But why then structure the funding in a way that the ones who “teach the test” will be rewarded vs. the ones who teach the skills? After a few years of teachings the skills, but of performing at a lower level on the test and hence seeing your funding cut, you’ll wise up and teach the test too.

Don’t blame the people for adapting to a bad system.

I know that when I was young I learned a lot more stuff at home from my dad than I ever did at school.

Yeah, that’s nice. Unfortunately, they have to eat and feed their families all 365 days of the year, just like you do.

43

Regrding non English speakers: immigrants to Germany (2nd numerically in the world behind the US) were automatically put into German language classes for like 6 months before being allowed to work or start school.

I saw a special on Duetsche Weile the other night and every immigrant spoke with acceptable diction and vocabulary. Seems reasonable to do the same here with our LEGAL immigrants.

Regarding dumbass students: how about our dumbass society? Teachers are forced by lawsuits to be nothing more than “crowd control”. You can’t bust their butts or you’ll get sued. Don’t worry about teaching them more than the “standardized test” - that is how you get YOUR grade. Weakass liberals worried that not everyone will get a trophy or get to be on the team.

Following egghead education policies coming out of California that believe that children (pre K - 5th) should learn to think analytically, when biologically their brains are designed to be soaking up facts like a sponge.

Whoa… Don’t get me started

44

[quote]doogie wrote:
It sucks that it has to be a standardized test, but that’s reality.[/quote]

Not really. It’s not like we don’t have the technology to administer a unique test to each student.

Instead of producing one standard test that’s given to the whole state or whatever sized region, have a huge database of questions covering every aspect of all the course material for a school year.

Then randomly pick those questions to prepare entirely unique tests. Simply put a barcode on the test as to be able to retrace the correct answers when the time comes to correct it.

That way, the only way to “teach the tests” would be to adequately cover all the course material in evey class, as you don’t know which questions will be presented to your students.

As an added bonus, copying off your neighbor’s answer sheet would not work, as he’s not answering the same test your are.

For anyone who’s ever taken an MCSE test at a Sylvan Prometric center, that’s exactly how the tests are administered; with the difference that you take them on a computer and that the questions stop once you reach the passing grade.

45

[quote]ron33 wrote:

Within the last few years our local schools started getting a lot of south of the border immigrants,instead of them learning english the school hires interpreters to communicate with them and their parents.I have heard this costs an extra 50-60 $$ an hour.

These kids come to school a couple weeks here and there ,then they will be gone for weeks or a month then show up back at school.they are always going between here and Mexico.If an u.s. citizen did that they would want to put you in jail and take your children away from you.Its B.S. that our system has to cater to these people.[/quote]

90% of my students are classified as migrants. Their parents bust ass in the hot fields for 16 hours a day. The kids bust ass right beside their parents on weekends and during the summer. When they are down here they live in one room cinder block homes they are building themselves in the colonias.

These same kids have a passing rate well into the 90% range, with half of them being commended by the state for their performance. For the most part, Mexican immigrants bust their ass and most of them bust their kids’ asses to make sure they aren’t in the fields forever.

46

I don’t think you understand what “standardized test” means.

47

[quote]doogie wrote:
I don’t think you understand what “standardized test” means. [/quote]

My understanding of them is those tests with multiple choices or true/false question which you fill out in a separate answer sheet.

If I’m off track, please enlighten me.

48

[quote]pookie wrote:

It’s not my reasoning, it’s what the system put in place by NCLB produces.

It might be modified to work, if the tests weren’t standardized and covered the whole gamut of the course material, the best way to ace the test would be to properly teach the skills.

In the current implementation, the tests are standardized, and worse, known in advance by the teachers and the administrators. It is in their interest (salary and bonus wise) to make sure those tests have the highest marks possible.

So while NCLB might have noble intentions, the way it’s implemented sucks. It sucks so badly as to produce the opposite effect than was intended.[/quote]

In this we agree. I did say that I thought it could be better implemented. I do believe that the way the schools have adapted to the system is inappropriate.

[quote]Your training analogy bears little relation to the situation, but let’s work with it anyway:

You have a base salary of $30,000. I’ll give you a bonus of 10$ for each repetition you complete and 100$ for each set. Seeing as you can do a lot more sets and reps of curls than squats, what result should I expect?

My reward system sucks because it rewards the wrong results. NCLB has the same problem. It pays according to test results and not skills taught.[/quote]

Yes, it pays according to the test results. But if the students actually understand the material, they should pass the tests just as easily. The system you suggest rewards the wrong results, yes, but the intention of the system is that I will work to improve my performance, not just to increase my results. Teaching the test cheats the system and invalidates the original purpose.

The intent was this: the teacher with the students that understand the skills and material will be rewarded. Unfortunately, the intent kind of got lost in the legislative process.

Sometimes everyone has to adapt to a bad system. I think that the adaptation was inappropriate.

Good. That is as it should be. Your dad did a good job.

If my job is part time, although I get paid the same hourly, should I get paid as much as a full time employee?

My point here is that we say, “Pay the teachers an equal salary.” But what we should be saying is, “Pay the teachers more than the average worker.”

Oh, and thanks for fixing my analogy.

-folly

49

One really big problem is the size of the schools. The ideal size is about 600 (where’d I read that? Forgot.). The current high schools are more like a GM plant, with THOUSANDS of ‘employees’. I think the principal of Columbine didn’t know what ‘Trench Coat Mafia’ was. The principal at my school knows all their names (Freshmen exempt, of course).

Perhaps we should go back to smaller local schools and dispense with the mega-schools.

50

[quote]PGJ wrote:
Get computers out of the schools, now, and put the chalk back in the teacher’s hand.
[/quote]

This is a stupid statement! How do expect to produce citizens that can contribute and be competitive in today’s high tech economy? Kids need to be exposed to more technology in the classroom if anything.

51

[quote]Rockscar wrote:
Also I’ve found that the Mexican culture does not really value education as much as Americans, so parents are not involved and as encouraging with regard to education and success. Would you say this is correct?
[/quote]

Rockscar I agree that the standardized tests will have lower scores due to the challenges of the language barrier…but the above statement is ridiculous and racist!

52

[quote]tpa wrote:
Rockscar wrote:
Also I’ve found that the Mexican culture does not really value education as much as Americans, so parents are not involved and as encouraging with regard to education and success. Would you say this is correct?

Rockscar I agree that the standardized tests will have lower scores due to the challenges of the language barrier…but the above statement is ridiculous and racist!

[/quote]

No it’s a fact. I’m not racist.

White men can’t jump well

Black men can’t ski well

Non English speaking Immigrants do poorly in school.

What’s the issue? There is no way what I wrote is racist. It’s merely and observation.

53

[quote]folly wrote:
Sometimes everyone has to adapt to a bad system. I think that the adaptation was inappropriate. [/quote]

But the people don’t really have a choice. It’s inevitable that if you reward the wrong metric, you’ll get the wrong results. The worst performing schools, having the most to lose from the NCLB, quickly understood that “teaching the test” meant they’d keep their current funding, or better, get even more. But as soon as a few school “optimize” for the test, the surrounding schools have little choice but to follow suit, or they get penalized. Even the best intentioned people will eventually give up if they’re getting their funds cut and losing salary and bonuses.

It’s not just a matter of lazy teachers or corrupt administrator; the NCLB system is set up to produce exactly what we’ve (well, you’ve) got now. Probably not intentionally, but intention doesn’t matter. Results do. And it’s not working.

54

[quote]Rockscar wrote:
Last nite at the Back to School meeting they had a board where reading was ranked with each student having a magnet with their name on it that moves from 0% to 100% throughout the school year. This means that as the child progresses, they move their name into the next column as they advance. This is on the wall for all to see.

One parent said “Well if you have a child with lower reading skills than the others, won’t they feel bad if their name is down lower on the list?”

The insinuation was that she did not like that part of the teachers class because it might make her child feel like an underachiever.

GIVE ME A FUCKING BREAK! The problem was obvious!!! Lazy parents equall underachieving kids.

This parent needs to get a clue, get involved and teach her kid life skills to compete in life…but alas no, it won’t be that way.

The teachers solution to that was to give her child in specific a lowered expectation to get to 100%. FUCK!!!

This kid has been set up for failure. Very sad.[/quote]

I’m actually shocked that the administration let the teacher get away with this. This is a great way to discourage a kid and chatter their confidence. Many kids really do have learning disabilities that make reading extremely difficult (e.g. dyslexia). It’s possible for a kid to be the hardest working student in the class and have the highest IQ and still have trouble with reading and/or writing.

I believe that the “No Child Left Behind” policy was created in response to children with learning disabilities. The curriculum and/or assessments need to be modified or accommodated for these students (e.g. given extra time to complete work, not taking off marks for spelling mistakes, alternative assignments, etc.) That’s right, I’m saying that students with learning disabilities should not be evaluated the same way other students are…this doesn’t necessarily mean less work, or assignments that aren’t as difficult, just different.

These kids have a disability that is impeding their learning. Would it be fair to tell the kids that wear glasses that they aren’t allowed to wear them in the school?..No, so kids with learning disabilities need accommodations and modifications as well. Exposing their disability to the class is cruel and wrong.

55

[quote]tpa wrote:
Rockscar wrote:
Last nite at the Back to School meeting they had a board where reading was ranked with each student having a magnet with their name on it that moves from 0% to 100% throughout the school year. This means that as the child progresses, they move their name into the next column as they advance. This is on the wall for all to see.

One parent said “Well if you have a child with lower reading skills than the others, won’t they feel bad if their name is down lower on the list?”

The insinuation was that she did not like that part of the teachers class because it might make her child feel like an underachiever.

GIVE ME A FUCKING BREAK! The problem was obvious!!! Lazy parents equall underachieving kids.

This parent needs to get a clue, get involved and teach her kid life skills to compete in life…but alas no, it won’t be that way.

The teachers solution to that was to give her child in specific a lowered expectation to get to 100%. FUCK!!!

This kid has been set up for failure. Very sad.

I’m actually shocked that the administration let the teacher get away with this. This is a great way to discourage a kid and chatter their confidence. Many kids really do have learning disabilities that make reading extremely difficult (e.g. dyslexia). It’s possible for a kid to be the hardest working student in the class and have the highest IQ and still have trouble with reading and/or writing.

I believe that the “No Child Left Behind” policy was created in response to children with learning disabilities. The curriculum and/or assessments need to be modified or accommodated for these students (e.g. given extra time to complete work, not taking off marks for spelling mistakes, alternative assignments, etc.) That’s right, I’m saying that students with learning disabilities should not be evaluated the same way other students are…this doesn’t necessarily mean less work, or assignments that aren’t as difficult, just different.

These kids have a disability that is impeding their learning. Would it be fair to tell the kids that wear glasses that they aren’t allowed to wear them in the school?..No, so kids with learning disabilities need accommodations and modifications as well. Exposing their disability to the class is cruel and wrong.[/quote]

That’s why we have “special schools”. This reasoning is exactly why we are a bunch of underachieving, lazy, fat society.

Learning disabilities due to language barriers are different than “learning disabilities” alone.

Exposing their lack of staying up with the average student should encourage PARENTS to do the extra mile TO CHANGE IT.

Too many people like you want to label this as a “learning problem” vs taking responsibilty with your own children and doing something about it. Instead you wish to adjust the curriculum.

Setting the stage that it’s OK to be the underachiever is wrong.

Showing how one rates against others is life, plain and simple…it all depends on if you are satisfied with “satisfactory”.

A competitive drive is the only thing that will keep America ahead of the game.

56

[quote]Rockscar wrote:
tpa wrote:
Rockscar wrote:
Also I’ve found that the Mexican culture does not really value education as much as Americans, so parents are not involved and as encouraging with regard to education and success.
[/quote]

How can you say that “MEXICANS DON"T VALUE EDUCATION”? That is a racist stereotype! I could argue that Mexicans value education more than Americans.

57

[quote]tpa wrote:
Rockscar wrote:
tpa wrote:
Rockscar wrote:
Also I’ve found that the Mexican culture does not really value education as much as Americans, so parents are not involved and as encouraging with regard to education and success.

How can you say that “MEXICANS DON"T VALUE EDUCATION”? That is a racist stereotype! I could argue that Mexicans value education more than Americans.

[/quote]

Stereotyping and racism are 2 different things. I said from my experience, this is what I’ve observed. Don’t let it bother you so much.

58

[quote]Rockscar wrote:
That’s why we have “special schools”. This reasoning is exactly why we are a bunch of underachieving, lazy, fat society.[/quote]

So you think that an extremely intelligent and hard working student with a genetic disability should be put in a “special school” instead of just making a slight accomodation like giving them extra time to complete an assignment? Why don’t we put all the kids with glasses in special schools? Why should they be allowed to use these learning aids? That’s cheating…they are inferior to the kids with 20/20 vision regardless of how hard they work or how smart they are.

[quote]Learning disabilities due to language barriers are different than “learning disabilities” alone.

Exposing their lack of staying up with the average student should encourage PARENTS to do the extra mile TO CHANGE IT.

Too many people like you want to label this as a “learning problem” vs taking responsibilty with your own children and doing something about it. Instead you wish to adjust the curriculum. [/quote]

So I guess if you were a 6 year old who was snuck into another country that speaks a different language you would be top of the class. How do you think you would score on the SATs right now if they were written in Chinese?

I don’t see how you could blame immigrant parents for not pushing their children the “extra mile”. Many immigrants are working over 14 hour days for very low wages. Furthermore, most of the immigrant parents struggle with the English language themselves. Did it ever occur to you that maybe they don’t have the time and/or the resources to help their child with schoolwork?

I know the immigration issue in the US is very controversial. I actually agree that there is a problem with funding and school time being diverted to “English as a second laguage” programs. This is a very complex issue. But I think you need to have a little bit more sympathy for the kids who are forced into these situations.

[quote]
Setting the stage that it’s OK to be the underachiever is wrong.

Showing how one rates against others is life, plain and simple…it all depends on if you are satisfied with “satisfactory”.[/quote]

Again I would argue that a child with a learning disability or a child that has English as his/her second language that manages to achieve “satisfactory” results should be considered an overachiever.

Wouldn’t providing a level playing field allow for better competition? And do you really believe that America is ahead of the game?

59

I have to agree with you. Although I am sure that there are schools and teachers teaching the subjects, and those schools have good test scores, it is easier to teach the test. And when your job is on the line, you do what you have to do.

I still think it could be better handled on both sides of the issue, and that the system had good intentions.

I did like your idea of the randomized standard test (is that an oxymoron?). That would fix some things.

What we have now is a system that, unfortunately, plays to the lowest common denominator. That is never a good idea.

-folly

[quote]pookie wrote:
folly wrote:
Sometimes everyone has to adapt to a bad system. I think that the adaptation was inappropriate.

But the people don’t really have a choice. It’s inevitable that if you reward the wrong metric, you’ll get the wrong results. The worst performing schools, having the most to lose from the NCLB, quickly understood that “teaching the test” meant they’d keep their current funding, or better, get even more. But as soon as a few school “optimize” for the test, the surrounding schools have little choice but to follow suit, or they get penalized. Even the best intentioned people will eventually give up if they’re getting their funds cut and losing salary and bonuses.

It’s not just a matter of lazy teachers or corrupt administrator; the NCLB system is set up to produce exactly what we’ve (well, you’ve) got now. Probably not intentionally, but intention doesn’t matter. Results do. And it’s not working.

[/quote]

60

Why not get rid of the SATs and base college entrance on the student’s high school average. Or perhaps their average in senior classes but must include 1 math, 1 science, 1 English, 1 History/Geography, etc.

Here in Ontario, Canada that is how we determine entrance to university. We actually have confidence that our high school teachers will provide an accurate representation of a students academic performance. Usually students will require a mark that is at least in the mid 70s to get acceptance into a university BA program.

Just seems like the US could save a lot of money and heartache if they got rid of the SATs and put more confidence in their education system.