Seeing as we seem to have a few strict libertarians posting here I want to know their views on the black market. IME the black market is the freest of all and oddly enough trust is a huge factor that can make or break a player in the black market.
Of course there is more violence associated with the black market, but that is neither here nor there.
A hugely interesting topic. A freewheeling, spontaneously ordered, flexible market that is quite sophisticated. They even have arbitration and “court” systems. Your trust worthiness is telegraphed through the market. It’s run by a set of implicit rules that are shared and evolve in the interplay of the market actors.
Check this out:
Interesting topic. The underground economy reflects all that is good and bad. Lots of freedom but aspects of it also are strictly and brutally governed.
[quote]beebuddy wrote:
Seeing as we seem to have a few strict libertarians posting here I want to know their views on the black market. IME the black market is the freest of all and oddly enough trust is a huge factor that can make or break a player in the black market.
Of course there is more violence associated with the black market, but that is neither here nor there.[/quote]
Black markets can only come about through attempts to regulate the market. They are only free in that they have circumvented regulation; however, entry into the market by competition can be extremely dangerous which is the essence of anti-freedom.
When there is a demand for goods they will find entry into a market no matter the barriers put up to prevent it – the result is always violent protectionism.
In an ideal society there would be no black markets rather just markets with open competition.
Yeah, but the underground market is much more than drugs and violence. There is a huge and peaceful barter & exchange system in many inner city neighborhoods - think haircuts in exchange for lube jobs. Stuff like that.
[quote]katzenjammer wrote:
Yeah, but the underground market is much more than drugs and violence. There is a huge and peaceful barter & exchange system in many inner city neighborhoods - think haircuts in exchange for lube jobs. Stuff like that. [/quote]
Actually, I know a girl that barters her skill as a beautician. Her exchanges wouldn’t be considered on the black market unless she were trading for illicit goods.
I didn’t know black market = illicit market. I thought it meant “black” in the sense that it’s off radar, etc.
[quote]katzenjammer wrote:
I didn’t know black market = illicit market. I thought it meant “black” in the sense that it’s off radar, etc. [/quote]
That raises a good point. We should probably have a good definition for a concept before we decide to have a discussion about it.
Wikipedia defines it as an underground market in which all applicable taxes and regulations are being avoided. In this case all bartering is considered on the black market.
If taxes were removed from all exchanges then bartering would not be considered a black market activity.
[quote]LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:
katzenjammer wrote:
I didn’t know black market = illicit market. I thought it meant “black” in the sense that it’s off radar, etc.
That raises a good point. We should probably have a good definition for a concept before we decide to have a discussion about it.
Wikipedia defines it as an underground market in which all applicable taxes and regulations are being avoided. In this case all bartering is considered on the black market.
If taxes were removed from all exchanges then bartering would not be considered a black market activity.[/quote]
IMO this is probably a simple tax issue. The fed allows barters up to a certain value. Also migrant/seasonal workers are allowed to make up to $500.00 without paying taxes etc…
Economist’s pretty much consider any off the book transaction as black market I think, with the exception of what the law allows.
I have heard off the book, otherwise legal, transactions referred to as “gray market.”
They seem to be a major “problem” especially in areas in which taxes are very high. Service industries are affected heavily. There is a greater range in which cash transactions benefit both the consumer and seller to motivate cash transactions.
What I find very amusing about it - besides the hand-wringing from earnest liberals/socialists concerned about these people cheating the system - is that government can effectively price itself out of the market through heavy handed tax policies.
[quote]nephorm wrote:
I have heard off the book, otherwise legal, transactions referred to as “gray market.”
They seem to be a major “problem” especially in areas in which taxes are very high. Service industries are affected heavily. There is a greater range in which cash transactions benefit both the consumer and seller to motivate cash transactions.
What I find very amusing about it - besides the hand-wringing from earnest liberals/socialists concerned about these people cheating the system - is that government can effectively price itself out of the market through heavy handed tax policies.[/quote]
Also amusing is that many that favor big government spending, social programs etc. are people that work in the underground economy and avoid paying taxes.
[quote]nephorm wrote:
I have heard off the book, otherwise legal, transactions referred to as “gray market.”
They seem to be a major “problem” especially in areas in which taxes are very high. Service industries are affected heavily. There is a greater range in which cash transactions benefit both the consumer and seller to motivate cash transactions.
What I find very amusing about it - besides the hand-wringing from earnest liberals/socialists concerned about these people cheating the system - is that government can effectively price itself out of the market through heavy handed tax policies.[/quote]
To your first point, I understand the gray market to include things like pro-hormones, and research chemicals which are stuck in some sort of nowhere land regarding the law. They are neither black nor white.
Your final point is interesting also. Apparently in Italy (or was it Greece) an estimated 40-60 percent of the market is off the books.
[quote]beebuddy wrote:
Seeing as we seem to have a few strict libertarians posting here I want to know their views on the black market. IME the black market is the freest of all and oddly enough trust is a huge factor that can make or break a player in the black market.
Of course there is more violence associated with the black market, but that is neither here nor there.[/quote]
Black Market may be also be anarchy
[quote]pittbulll wrote:
beebuddy wrote:
Seeing as we seem to have a few strict libertarians posting here I want to know their views on the black market. IME the black market is the freest of all and oddly enough trust is a huge factor that can make or break a player in the black market.
Of course there is more violence associated with the black market, but that is neither here nor there.
Black Market may be also be anarchy
[/quote]
If that is so, anarchy beats government bureaucracy any time.
[quote]orion wrote:
pittbulll wrote:
beebuddy wrote:
Seeing as we seem to have a few strict libertarians posting here I want to know their views on the black market. IME the black market is the freest of all and oddly enough trust is a huge factor that can make or break a player in the black market.
Of course there is more violence associated with the black market, but that is neither here nor there.
Black Market may be also be anarchy
If that is so, anarchy beats government bureaucracy any time.
[/quote]
Ina free market every time , I am not sure I would like to live in anarchy
[quote]pittbulll wrote:
orion wrote:
pittbulll wrote:
beebuddy wrote:
Seeing as we seem to have a few strict libertarians posting here I want to know their views on the black market. IME the black market is the freest of all and oddly enough trust is a huge factor that can make or break a player in the black market.
Of course there is more violence associated with the black market, but that is neither here nor there.
Black Market may be also be anarchy
If that is so, anarchy beats government bureaucracy any time.
Ina free market every time , I am not sure I would like to live in anarchy
[/quote]
It depends what you call anarchy.
[quote]orion wrote:
pittbulll wrote:
orion wrote:
pittbulll wrote:
beebuddy wrote:
Seeing as we seem to have a few strict libertarians posting here I want to know their views on the black market. IME the black market is the freest of all and oddly enough trust is a huge factor that can make or break a player in the black market.
Of course there is more violence associated with the black market, but that is neither here nor there.
Black Market may be also be anarchy
If that is so, anarchy beats government bureaucracy any time.
Ina free market every time , I am not sure I would like to live in anarchy
It depends what you call anarchy.
[/quote]
I would say no rule of law, wikapedia says no state .
I would have no more interest exploiting those weaker than me ,than I would in some one stonger than me exploiting me
I am a registered Libertarian and well educated on the black market thanks to Eric Schlosser’s Refer Madness (please see book review thread)…
I’ll post all about it tomorrow, need sleep right now.
[quote]pittbulll wrote:
I would say no rule of law, wikapedia says no state .
I would have no more interest exploiting those weaker than me ,than I would in some one stonger than me exploiting me
[/quote]
In the absence of a state there would still be a “rule of law”. We call it custom. The enforcement of custom would return to family and community.
Anarchy is simply a free society whose wants and needs are met by the market place as opposed to being met by the state.
It would be impossible to form a society without rules and laws. One of the simplest examples I can think of is the use of language for communication. In order to form a language a community of people have to agree on rules and meaning or else it is useless. These agreements are not necessarily formalized yet must be understood by all who use it. There is no governing body of officials who enforces these rules; however, it is enforced by the fact that cooperation requires certain protocols to be followed.
An other good example of an anarchic society, albeit a virtual one, is the internet. The establishment of protocols that govern its use are not enforced by law but rather by a market of users and developers.
[center]Sierra Leone Marketplace [/center]
Help me out because I’m missing something:
Isn’t it one thing if a “black market”, within a somewhat stable society, provides things cheaper; or allows us to avoid taxes; or allows us to barter services, etc…
And quite another if it is essentially our main mode of survival? (e.g. in places like Baghdad and Sierra Leone).
In the former, the black market is a “convenience” that allows us to “get by” or “get over”…
In the latter, you have a market that can be more exploitative than the Government it circumvents.
I think that people also tend to forget that even with regulations, people are exploited…so somehow we get rid of regulation and oversight and then… “poof”… they won’t be exploited, and we will all be holding hands and drinking tax-free milk, honey and Coke in the streets?
I think I’ll stick with the oversight and regulation (within limits…)
(Please let me know what I’m missing here…!)
Mufasa