danh, forget the drug allegation and look at the connection with the Muslim group.
Danh, I can’t get past your allusion to Deut. 20, no matter how much you try to qualify it. Fundamentalist Jews do not look upon it (or expound upon it in their literature) as a commandment to continual war and world domination, as you’ve incredibly presented it.
As I recall, Moran (who got money from a Hamas supporter) immediately said his comments were out of line before he was lambasted by everyone from Daschel to Pelosi. And the way I see it, Robert Novak’s intellectual capacity is such that when he calls the Iraq conflict as “Sharon’s war,” he is simplifying the issue beyond belief in order to be inflammatory toward the American Jewish community. That is what I call anti-Semitism. On television panels, he consistently equates the suicide killings of Israelis to ANY bystanders who die in retaliatory strikes (and he knows well that these terrorists deliberately work among civilians and use them as shields) to the moral consternation of the other panelists. Plus, I remember when he advocated that the Republicans reach out to Farrakhan. I personally think that Robert Novak is a self-hating Jew, kissing the ass of the gentiles behind the keyboards at the American Conservative magazine.
And in your list of politicians who you say are in essence “seeing the light” you mention Gary Hart, who has always been a strong supporter of Israel, and denied that his comments about “allegiances” had anything to do with Jews and Israel. So Gary Hart does not belong in your fantasies.
We obviously have different values and won’t make any progress in discussion. Most Americans would agree with me that the victory of WW2 was for the cause of liberalism against tyranny (and that those who sided with liberalism should be rewarded and those who sided with tyranny should be penalized.) Yet to support your position, you’ve gone so far as to suggest that it was simply “world peace”(Any side’s victory, or for that matter capitulation, in “world war” entails your strange measure of “world peace.”)
I don’t blame a bunch of “neo-con Jews” for our problems with the Middle East. My beliefs on the matter are expressed by Paul Berman, writer for the New Republic and author of “Terror and Liberalism”:
“…So the problems of the Muslim world in the Middle East can be located in the tiny issue of a border dispute in a place the size of Connecticut. Across the world people are convinced of this. It’s a preposterous idea, but this idea is really widely shared. Anybody
who holds this idea therefore has carte blanche to ignore the fact that the Iran-Iraq war killed a million people or that Islamism in the Sudan has killed between 1.5 million and 2 million people, or that 100,000 people have been killed in Algeria.”
Totalitarian Islam will be the enemy of the American way of life, no matter what our position is toward Israel. Israel has nothing to do with the havoc Islamism and Baathism cause to every non-Muslim group with whom they come into contact, and their ruthless attempts to stifle opposition in the Muslim world. Danh, how much have you researched Islamist and Baathist connections to European fascist ideologues by way of Qutb, and others?
The Wahaabiists say that they are fighting a conflict between civilizations that has gone on for over 1000 years. They’ve made it very clear that they intend to go on fighting the West no matter what happens with Israel. In the meantime, the ruling regimes in the Arab world use both America and Israel (and America irrespective of its relationship with Israel) to keep attention away from their misrule and oppression. Saddam and Idi Amin talked up invading Israel as they slaughtered millions of their own countryman and their neighbors. It’s an old red herring.
Danh, I think this conversation is over, and I’m done. We won’t sway each other’s opinions at all.
Mark R., my response to you is in “the other side” thread because my computer is having difficulty regurgitating the list of all the earlier posts. I won’t be contributing to this “WW3” thread again. I suggest you bring yourself to the other thread to share your wonderful ideas and poems about fat people. Perhaps one reason you like Arafat more than Sharon is because he is more svelte. I’ll see you in “the other side.”
dadean, many other politicians have received campaign contributions from muslim groups, including hillary clinton and george bush. each has returned contributions that have been believed to be from terrorist groups, including moran… are they all antisemitic?
brian
what the hell does this mean?
“[11]: And it shall be, if it make thee answer of peace, and open unto thee, then it shall be, that all the people that is found therein shall be tributaries unto thee, and they shall serve thee. [12]: And if it will make no peace with thee, but will make war against thee, then thou shalt besiege it: [13]: And when the LORD thy God hath delivered it into thine hands, thou shalt smite every male thereof with the edge of the sword: [14]: But the women, and the little ones, and the cattle, and all that is in the city, even all the spoil thereof, shalt thou take unto thyself; and thou shalt eat the spoil of thine enemies, which the LORD thy God hath given thee.Thus shalt thou do unto all the cities which are very far off from thee, which are not of the cities of these nations. [16]: But of the cities of these people, which the LORD thy God doth give thee for an inheritance, thou shalt save alive nothing that breatheth: [17]: But thou shalt utterly destroy them”
if this is not war rhetoric they i dunno what is.
your definition of antisemitism is broad. so novak criticizes sharon. now he is an anti-semite. please!
it’s easy to equate suicide bombings to military incursions: innocent people die! how does this make him anti-semitic?
because you think novak is a self-hating jew that some how makes him anti-semitic. great evidence. (sarcasm)
i never mention gary hart. you probably read that somewhere else. don’t put words into my mouth.
ok, liberation from tyranny.. how does that make a jewish state more deserving?
neo-cons have definitely changed the scope of the probelms in the middle east. contrast their policies to those of clinton, preemtive war vs. diplomatic engagement. since clinton left office and especially since sep 11, neo-cons have magnified the
problems in the middle east.
america has many enemies. totalitarianism, communism… and one more: treason. when people who hold dual israeli-US
citizenships start making policy that does not reflect american intersests, that is tantamount to treason.
i do not defend religoius/fundamentalist extremists, including wahabiists. yet i don’t believe to fight wahaabiists we must
support israel. there is no logical connection between the two actions.
it seems you are pro-israel no-matter-what. it’s obvious you can’t be swayed. the only reason i continue is to address your questions, your objectinos, and your one-sidedness and to support my main point that we need leadership change across the board.
no one has addressed my multiple ancestor argument. therefore i assume you concede that jewishness is not about any one bloodline (which defeats any notion that jews deserve a state because they are sons of a certain ancestor).
no one has has denied my list of genocides that have occured since ww2. therefore i assume that you concede genocide is not a precondition for deserving a separate nation-state.
danh, you stated that Moran does not have a “checkered past.” He accepted contributions from a group that supports Hamas, he accepted bribes (in a nutshell that’s what they are) from a drug company, he assaulted an 8-year-old child, and has many allegations against him in his own district. According to you, I have a “twisted mind” connecting all of this to his blame of Jews for the war of Iraq. Well, it may be twisted for you but a normal person would see a very distrubing man. That is the extent of my contribution to this thread as I come here for nutritional and training information and unfortunately for myself, opened this thread and replied to some of your drivel.
By the way, 
I AM an orthodox practicing Jew (a “religious zealot” if you will) who has always believed that G-d is the One who will bring Jews back to Israel and not Zionism.
those allegations (and i will remind you that allegations are not facts until proven) have nothing to do with anti-semitism.
“If it were not for the strong support of the Jewish community for this war with Iraq, we would not be doing this. The leaders of the Jewish community are influential enough that they could change the direction of where this is going, and I think they should.” - moran.
so moran pointed out that jews are influential, that is not anti-semitic: murdoch’s (jew) fox network was one of many neocon media sources calling for war. senator lieberman among other jewish politicians was continuously reminding us of how saddam was a danger to american way of life. moran was stating the facts and followed up with his opinion.
his only mistake was not being specific with names when he made his comments. that hardly makes him an anti-semite.
well it’s good you’re not going to contribute again. if you believe god is gonna deliver the promised land to you, then there is no convincing you otherwise.
So…why the fuck did we let this thread end. It was kicking ass, with a lot of good informational exchange. Just because Brian and Glute couldn’t hang with us and started their own thread doesn’t mean we should follow. Fuck Brian…our thread is back up!!!
Here’s an intersting article from the Jerusalem Post (http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?pagename=JPost/JPArticle/ShowFull&cid=1067676019994) about European opinions on Israel, and their role in Middle East issues. Their humorous conclusion is that Europeans must be racists, as they’ve failed to buy into their Israel’s views of the world, so they shouldn’t be part of the peace process! Check it out:
EU poll: Israel greatest threat to world peace
By JPOST.COM STAFF
Fifty-nine percent of Europeans say that Israel is a larger threat to world peace than North Korea, Iran or Afghanistan, according to a European Commission survey of approximately 7,500 Europeans, scheduled to be made public on Monday.
Given a list of 15 countries, including Iran and North Korea, Israel was listed as the greatest threat to world peace, the Spanish daily El Pais reported.
The EU has denied allegations that it suppressed the results of the survey.
“This poll is an indication that Europeans have bought in, ‘hook, line and sinker’, to the vilification and demonization campaign directed against the State of Israel and her supporters by European leaders and media,” said Rabbi Marvin Hier, the Wiesenthal Center’s founder and dean.
“If the results of this survey are as reported, then Israel should draw the only conclusion possible - that the European Union and its members should play no role in any future peace process,” Hier said.
Hier added that the poll only shows that “antisemitism is deeply embedded within European society, more then any other period since the end of WWII.”
In a statement sent to the The Jerusalem Post Minister-without-Portfolio with responsibility for Jerusalem and Diaspora Affairs Natan Sharansky deplored the findings of the poll. “The fact that most Europeans view Israel as the greatest threat to world peace instead of nations that support terrorism, or dictators threatening the world with weapons of mass destruction, is further proof that behind Europe’s ‘political’ criticism of Israel lies pure anti-Semitism,” Sharansky said.
“Just as in the past when Jews were blamed for all the world’s problems, today’s ‘enlightened’ nations are doing the same to Israel,” Sharansky added.
the fact that Europe is overwhelmingly antisemetic isn’t news.
It looks like Israel may finally be willing to try to put the Roadmap back on track. We’ll see if Israel is willing to work for peace, but one thing we can agree on is that we all hope for success.
"JERUSALEM (AP) - Following an Israeli offer, Palestinian leader Yasser Arafat said Sunday he is ready for peace talks, while about 6,000 Palestinians returned to jobs in Israel for the first time in a month.
In an abrupt turnaround last week, Israeli Prime Minister Ariel Sharon said contacts were already underway with Palestinian officials, adding, “We are ready to enter negotiations at any time.”
Sharon had previously conditioned talks on a crackdown on violent Palestinian groups responsible for attacks on Israelis.
Asked about Sharon’s remarks, Arafat told reporters he would accept an offer for talks."
WW 3 started 9/11/2001. The only thing lacking is a massive escalation. It will happen. I think I am OK with it at this point. My shock and awe at the situation has long since past. I have been watching the middle east for quite sometime. It is and has been a powder keg looking for the right spark for decades and it is all finally coming to a head. It may take a few more incidents, but things will blow way out of proportion relatively soon. Any kind of peace currently existing is tenuous at best. There are really only two sides. People who care if they die and people who don’t. This is an idealogical war. It is nearly imposible to successfuly fight an enemy who does not care if they die. The only way to stop the war is to convince most people that dying for a violent cause is a bad idea. So the first tiny step is to get rid of the people who plant such ideas in other peoples heads. It is easy to destroy a country, it is nearly imposible to change even one persons mind, much less millions.
There is no sign that things are getting better, only worse.
With all that being said, things are still worse in the Congo where over 2 million people have been killed in thier stupid war. Or Rwanda where 80 thousand have been murdered over a border conflict. We just don’t hear about that stuff because they are poor and have nothing to offer the rest of the world.
This little blue planet is one of great suffering and there is nothing we can do about it except be better people ourselves. It may not solve the problems, but it may offer us some absolution.
trying2,
anti-semitism! anti-semitism! it’s always anti-semitism!
shut the fuck up.
israel and the US are BOTH adopting a policy of preemption, and it’s no fucking surprise that people view that as a threat to world peace.
why is the US tied for 2nd on that poll? because of our jewish population? shut up, really.
food for thought
aztec zionism vs. israeli zionism, similarities
promised land: the ancient israelites and the ancient aztecs both claim to had been ejected from a ‘promised land’ that they would be able to reclaim at a later point
religious/fundamentalist zealots: there exist organizations with goals to implement aztlan; israel already exist as a result of work by similar organizations
questionable genetic heritage: aztlan–people who advocate aztlan claim to be descendants from aztecs. in reality most are descendants of amerinds conquered by aztecs such as the mixtec, maya, etc. in addition to being mixed with european blood as a result of european colinization and modern globalization. israel–people claim to be direct descendents of abraham; that claim is questionable (lookup kazharia, archaeology), those who are true semites are mixed as a result of millenia of constant demographic flux, and probably muslim today.
no archaeological evidence: in both instances there is a lack of archeological evidence to support the mythological origins of the peoples involved.
(if you doubt some this info, verify it on your own)
it’s interesting that in both cases, those opposed to the zionism are labeled racists and anti-jews or anti-mexican/anti-amerind, self-hating jews, self-hating aztecs/“white-washed”
i think that the genetic, cultural, and mythical/religious arguments for a separate nation state in both cases is weak. in principle neither should exist.
practically, israel cannot be denied the right to exist since it is now a politically and socially viable nation state with distinct heritage from other nation states.
aztlan should never be implemented. anyone who believes in the myth of aztlan should be able to live in the area, but they should be law abiding citizens/residents of the united states.
now that israel is here to stay, it is in its best interests to let go of the arguments for creating an israeli state (heritage, religion, victimization, etc.), and instead build positive relationships with their neighbors and the world community.
recently, one thing israel could have done differently is instead of condemning european nations as anti-semitic because they are genuinely concerned about destabalization in the region, they should have tried to genuinely address the concerns of the world community by avoiding the anti-semitism charge and asking for help in accelerating the peace process that now seems to be underway
Yes, tryin2getbig, “shut the fuck up.” Danh can try to backtrack all he wants, continually re-frame his position, but both threads already record his true animosity.
From Reuters:
“Commission President Romano Prodi, visiting New York, said he was concerned at the findings and acknowledged they may indicate deeper anti-Semitic prejudice in Europe.
…
Prodi stressed that the Eurobarometer survey did not reflect the views or policy of the European Commission.
‘They point to the continued existence of a bias that must be condemned out of hand. To the extent that this may indicate a deeper, more general prejudice against the Jewish world, our repugnance is even more radical,’ he declared.”
So Prodi understands the logic that holding double standard in one’s criticisms against Israel is indeed antisemitic.
AND
“Israeli Foreign Minister Silvan Shalom said the poll was “conducted in an irresponsible manner and distorts reality,” but rejected assertions it proved European anti-Semitism.”
What reason is there to devise arguments against the authenticity of the Jewish claim to statehood before saying, from one’s impartial armchair, that both parties should go to the peace table? Danh keeps telling us that he’s 1/4 Jewish so he can’t be antisemitic (brilliant argument). Perhaps he simply doesn’t like himself 25% of the time.
whatever man
How many times does it have to be said – the animosity is towards the occupation, not toward Jews. Some people don’t want to hear this.
The UN has an updated report on disturbing humanitarian issues in the Occupied Territories. Check it out, at http://www.un.org/News/Press/docs/2003/gaspd276.doc.htm. I posted the first few paragraphs for reference.
GRAVE CONCERN EXPRESSED OVER DETERIORATING SITUATION IN OCCUPIED PALESTINIAN TERRITORIES, AS FOURTH COMMITTEE TAKES UP REPORT ON ISRAELI PRACTICES
Expressing grave concern over the deteriorating situation in the occupied Palestinian territories, the Chairman of the Special Committee established to investigate Israeli practices in those territories presented his annual report to the Fourth Committee (Special Political and Decolonization) this morning.
He stressed that road closures, curfews and the multiplication of mobile checkpoints had prevented thousands of ordinary Palestinians from going to work, cultivating their fields, getting access to health facilities or sending their children to school. Another side effect of the increased military occupation was the renewed campaign of destruction of houses and property undertaken by Israeli forces, he added.
He said the economic crisis affecting the occupied territory left more than 50 per cent of the Palestinian workforce unemployed and 60 per cent of the population of the West Bank and the Gaza Strip living under the poverty line. The situation also had an impact on Israel, which had experienced an estimated decline of 9 per cent in its per capita gross domestic product in the last two years.
He pointed to a similar deteriorating pattern of the human rights situation in the Syrian Golan in terms of education and employment for the 50,000 Syrian Arabs living there and of the living conditions of 500,000 other Syrians, many of them refugees from the occupied Golan.
Also, check out The Violence of Construction: Israel's Wall and International Law | The Electronic Intifada
arguments against UN prejudice and malfeasance on thread “The Other Side”
Yassir Arafat to Arab leaders after Oslo:
“We of the PLO will now concentrate all our efforts on splitting Israel psychologically into two camps… Within five years, we will have 6 to 7 million Arabs living on the West Bank and in Jerusalem. … If the Jews can import all kinds of Ethiopians, Russians, Uzbeks and Ukranians as Jews, we can import all kinds of Arabs to us…TO ELIMINATE THE STATE OF ISRAEL AND ESTABLISH A PURELY ISLAMIC STATE. We will make life unbearable for the Jews by psychological warfare and population explosion; Jews won’t want to live among us Arabs.”
Syria (along with Iran and Lybia) are officially against the 2-state resolution. Syria (which had fostered Palestinian raids against Israeli civilians from '48-'67 before it had any territories) was actually offered the Golan on June 19, 1967 for peace. It refused.