WW3 might have just started, God help us all!

Off Topic
81

Mark R. writes to Doogie:

“By your logic, Hitler’s murder of 1 million Gypsies was justified, as Germans may make better neighbors than Gypsies. Am I understanding you correctly?”

Mark R., you’re clearly putting words in Doogie’s mouth, who did not mean “better neighbors.” I think he was saying something like, for example, if you’re gay, you don’t want to live in the future Palestinian state because then your life will be in serious peril.

I gave you the benefit of the doubt that you’re not a Jew-hater but now you make it sound like you don’t like Gypsies…

82

I side with Israel because I stop and think, “Who wants to kill my family?”

The answer is: Palestinians. Nothing America could do would change that. If America allowed Israel to be destroyed, the Palestinians would still want to kill Americans.

As far as WW3 is concerned, I say the sooner the better. Balls to the wall, no half-ass efforts. We are in a new time. We must take the battle to those who want to kill us. You can say I’m brainwashed all you want. I don’t care. It makes a hell of a lot more sense to me to fight in Afghanistan, Iraq, Syria, and Iran than in New York, California, Texas, and Florida.

83

Brian,

There you go with the name-calling again. I’ve said NOTHING about the Jewish people, and I have no problem at all with the Jewish people. I’ve been commenting on how ISRAEL’S POLICIES AND ACTIONS are impacting the world, and are likely to eventually bring about World War III. As I already said, Israel loves to call its critics ‘anti-Semites’. I don’t hate Jews, or Gypsies, or anyone. In fact, truth be told, it sounds like you hate Arabs.

As for your comments, I never said that any occupied people are justified in hatred and in crimes against civilians. In fact, I’ve continually said that terrorism against civilians is CLEARLY wrong. My point is clear – it’s not the responsibility of occupied people to prove that they are ‘better’ than their occupiers to show that they ‘deserve’ to not be subjected to atrocities. The rest of the world, including Europe, sees this very clearly.

The US, however, sees it through the filter of the media, which are clearly biased, and through the filter of a VERY fundamentalist interpretation of the Bible, in which ANYTHING that stops Israel from occupying and incorporating ALL of the old Israel (regardless of who lives their now) is an ‘affront to the Lord’ (check out patrobertson.com and other similar sites).

Again, while the Palestinian authority, Hamas, and Hezbollah may wrong, both morally and legally in many of their resistance activities, this is not a tit-for-tat argument. Israel cannot simply keep this land occupied forever, and it’s their activities that are keeping the people pissed off. Israel doesn’t want peace – Israel wants land.

84

The treatment of Palestinians at the hands of Israelis is no better than that suffered by black South Africans under the apartheid government.

If anyone of us had to live that kind of existence we sure as hell wouldnt be too happy with whoever was putting us through it.

85

Brian,

You said “Mark R. seems to be combining some nativist Pat Buchanon stuff with Third World Liberation stuff, which I haven’t found to fit together.” It’s actually pretty simple. I think the US should stay the hell out of the internal affairs of other nations, unless they directly impact the safety and security of the United States. George Washington wisely advised the United States to not maintain statnding alliances, and we are paying the price for our failure to head his wisdom.

The reason I specifically mention this conflict and its merits is that the US financially supports Israel, and we just fought a war for Israel’s security. This entanglement is already screwing us, and it will continue to do so (WWIII, even). It’s important for people to think through this ‘alliance’.

86

doogie, unlike you, i don’t look forward to any war, much less a world war. i don’t want to lose someone i know because a regional problem could not be solved diplomatically.

who wants to kill the average american family? i doubt the average palestinian, if he had a chance, would kill the average american if they met face to face in the street. if anything he will try to get asylum from you for living in a shithole.

only extremists resort to extreme action. yes, there are palestinian extremists that want to kill americans. but there are also israelis who resort to extreme action as a result of fanaticism. have you heard of jonathan pollard? he’s an israeli spy currently locked up in jail. what is his offense? the disclosure of THOUSANDS of classified and secret documents to israel. why? because he’s a “great Jewish patriot”. this one guy has cause much more damage to the average american than any single palestinian.

similarly another guy, Yigal Amir, a “greater-israel bigot”, singlehandedly reversed the peace-process in 1993. his act has cost more to american GDP than any single palestinian.

my point: there are bigots, fanatics, psychos, and extremists on BOTH SIDES that don’t give a fuck about americans and our way of life.

sidenote: i read an interesting article the other day: israel has cost the average american $5,700 since 1973.

hey, if you and i had that money right now and invested it in a small businesses or something, we wouldn’t be in this recession (recovery?).

main points: ww3 is not necessary. extremists exist on BOTH SIDES.

87

The US needs to tell Israel if they want to hang on to the Occupied Territories, the US won’t help. We need to discontinue all foreign aid, military aid, and loan guarantees until Israel relinqueshes its stranglehold on the Territories.

As for the Palestinians, it’s surprising that they like and trust Americans as much as they do. After all, they watch Caterpillar bulldozers, F16s, and Apache helicoptors destroy their homes every day.

88

Check out http://www.pchrgaza.org/files/W_report/English/2003/16-10-2003.htm to see the behavior that’s endorsed and subsidized by the US government.

Here are a couple of paragraphs of occurences of this past week:

This week, Israeli occupying forces have escalated violations of human rights against Palestinian civilians in the Occupied Palestinian Territories (OPTa), including extra-judicial and willful killings, indiscriminate shelling of residential areas, incursions into Palestinian areas, house demolitions, land leveling, unlawful transfers, and arbitrary arrests and detentions. They have also imposed a comprehensive siege on the OPT. This week, 10 Palestinians, including 3 children, were killed by Israeli occupying forces.

On Friday morning, 10 October 2003, Israeli occupying forces conducted a large scale incursion into the Rafah refugee camp, adjacent to the Egyptian border in the southern Gaza Strip. Under cover of intense shelling and gunfire from tanks and helicopters, Israeli forces invaded the area which is one of the most densely populated in the Gaza Strip. During this incursion, which lasted for two days, 8 Palestinians, mostly civilians, including 3 children, were killed and 56 others were wounded, including 20 seriously. Israeli occupying forces destroyed 170 Palestinian houses, a number of civilian facilities and civilian infrastructure in the area. More than 2000 Palestinians, mostly children and women, have been rendered homeless. This number is added to hundreds of families whose homes were destroyed in the same area by Israeli occupying forces in previous incursions.

Two days after they had withdrawn from Rafah refugee camp, Israeli occupying forces moved into al-Brazil and al-Salam neighborhoods in Rafah, adjacent to the Egyptian border. At time of writing, one Palestinian has been killed and 10 others, including 6 children, have been wounded by Israeli shelling. Israeli forces also arrested 3 Palestinians, demolished a number of houses and razed areas of agricultural land. They have also damaged the infrastructure in the two neighborhoods.

In the West Bank, Israeli occupying forces moved into Qalqilya and Tulkarm. They also moved into Nablus and arrested a number of Palestinians. Israeli forces have continued to impose a curfew on Jenin and its refugee camp for the 11th consecutive day (see PCHR’s press release issued on 11 October 2003), on Qalqilya for the 5th consecutive day, on parts of Hebron for the 4th consecutive day and on Tulkarm and its refugee camp for the 2nd day.

On 15 October 2003, in an apparent willful killing, Israeli soldiers shot dead a Palestinian civilian in Tulkarm. They claimed that he did not obey orders to stop. Israeli soldiers did not offer him any medical assistance and delayed access for an ambulance for about an hour, during which time he died.

Further confirming Israel as “a state above law,” the United States used its veto on Wednesday, 15 October 2003, to oppose a UN Security Council resolution that calls upon Israel to stop construction of the “separation wall.” The United States was the only state that rejected the resolution. Four other states; Bulgaria, Cameron, Germany and the United Kingdom; abstained. The resolution stated that the construction of a fence inside the OPTs is illegal and violates international law. The resolution further called for the immediate cessation of construction. The resolution further stated that “the UN Security Council rejects the settlement activities in the OPTs and any confiscation of land that may affect sources of income.” PCHR is concerned that this the US veto serves to encourage Israel to perpetrate further violations of international human rights and humanitarian law, including war crimes, in the OPTs.

89

Again, I don’t hate jews!!
All I said is that if I WERE palestinian I’dd PROBABLY be one of them Mohamed dynamite pinnatas. It’s the only way they have to fight against this oppressor…that’s all. Women and children die all the time in Gaza and the west bank from american made bullets…what because those aren’t jewish kids they don’t count!?!

90

And i’m sorry if i come off as a retard but english is a second language to me and I don’t get to practice alot. Some of my points might have been expressed better by someone else…but again I don’t hate jews i’m against Israel that is all.

91

I’m not as well versed on this topic as Dan or Mark,

but recently I heard a scholar who remarked that the suicide bombing is caused by utter hopelessness that all of us here cannot truly understand.

We’re talking generations of Palestinians basically imprisoned with no hope of escape - then watch as families and friends are blown apart by weapons given them by the US (not solely by the US however).

Its natural that radical reactions occur.

That said, both sides have blame of course, but I believe that the US continuing to fan the flames will not help.

92

This thread still up geeezz this happened like 2 weeks ago and nope no war somepeople just need to worrie about other bigger things they can change…like there poundage in the gym

93

There is no communication happening here. It’s as though some people aren’t even reading posts with different views or deliberately misrepresenting them, or simply too lazy to scroll up to earlier in the thread. Other than mentioning the enormous amount of aid we give to lots of countries with dubious records (for example, Egypt gets a huge amount, second to Israel), I’m leaving this thread with a book recommendation for Kuri, Terror and Liberalism by Paul Berman.

And as for retard, who wrote,

“the only way they have to fight against this oppressor…that’s all.”

Obviously untrue. Would you support the attack on the World Trade Center for the same reason? The Oklahoma City bombing? In each case, that was the argument of the murderers.

“Women and children die all the time in Gaza and the west bank from american made bullets”

That’s actually also untrue. Women RARELY die in Gaza, and unarmed children rarely die there (according to the rate that rubber bullets kill people which are used all over the world against people who throw stones)
The death statistics on the Israeli side are laden with women and children, and on the Palestinian side, self-styled “soldiers” who target them.

Retard also wrote,
“…what because those aren’t jewish kids they don’t count!?!”

Of course they count.

94

cuda, this is still very relevant at least in my opinion.

  1. the UN security council failed to reach a resolution rearding these attacks, in theory giving a green light to israel to do the same thing again in syria, lebabanon, or iran. this also means that “pre-emptive warfare” is a tactic that the United States will continue to purse in the near future.

  2. the organization of the islamic conference (oic) has been meeting extensively since the strikes to figure out of a response to these attacks. rest assured that no-votes in the security coucil result in increasing radicalization of the islamic world (case in point: PM of malaysia, mahathir mohamad’s recent remarks).

hey man, i love working out but i also like having discussions with fellow atheletes on current events. feel free to contribute if you’ve got something to say.

95

Brian,

I disagree. There is a great deal of communication. I’ve read every word of every post, and I think many others have as well. Perhaps you’re frustrated because not all of us have come to the same conclusion that you have. Again, if you’d just tell us why Israel is justified in continuing the occupation, we’ll be very glad to debate that. However, you’ve either simply listed the offenses of the Palestinians in some attempt to draw the blame off Israel, or you’ve called anyone that disagreed with Israel’s policies a ‘Jew-hater’. It’s hard to understand how you expect this to stimulate a decent debate. However, despite this, we’ve had a very good discussion on the relevent issues… one that the vast majority of Americans will NEVER have.

Again, no one here supports terrorism against civilians. It’s wrong. Okay. We’ve merely attempted to explain how hopelessness and despair encourage these attacks.

Anyway, I’ve enjoyed having a good intellectual discussion with my fellow lifters. I hope people will continue to post on this because, unfortunately, the issue isn’t likely to go away soon.

96

Danh,

Good post. I also enjoy talking to my fellow lifters about current events. This is a difficult issue, of course, and the media and the religious right do try to drive support for Israel home, so I expect people to think like Brian does. If fact, I do respect Brian, because he has tried to educate himself on the issue, and he does back up his statements with citations of fact (as you mentioned).

I am actually surprised that so many of us are at least willing to consider the proposition that Israel’s occupation of Palestine (along with the wall that deviates from the Green Line) is wrong. As you must know by now, I don’t think that Israel is ‘evil’. I simply think that they are wrong about the occupation.

You did say that I ‘must defend the general Israeli populace who is caught in the middle of this mess.’ Again, I’ve continually said that terrorism against civilians is wrong, and I do have compassion for innocent Israelis ‘caught in the middle’. The reason it doesn’t come up in my posts is because it’s neither the cause nor reasonable justification for the occupation. It’s just a ruse Israel uses to deflect attention from the main issues, and it’s important to think beyond this, and to focus on the root causes of Middle East problems. This is what I’ve attempted to do with my posts.

Finally, Israelis need to stop choosing leaders like Sharon and Netanyahu. These guys are seriously bad news for peace.

97

hey mark,

yeah this is a difficult issue, because the average person doesn’t have the facts to analyze the situation objectively. those who do have the facts always run the risk of being called anti-semitic.

i’m sure you noticed… my main point in this thread is that we need new leadership and that extremists on both sides are to blame for the situation. just for mentioning that i get called anti-semitic and nazi! what’s disappointing is that this tactic is now used by right-wingers even though they probably wouldn’t have agreed with neocon foreign policy to begin with.

i have two die-hard republican acquaintances, one white and one asian. both have suggested that i am antisemitic because i don’t agree that the war in iraq was for our national security. lo and behold when i tell them i am part jewish, they still say it’s possible for someone who is jewish to be anti-semitic.

these same guys were against clinton ordering the bombing of a chemical facility (when in laden was the first and only target) just because they heard some argument from their talk radio icons. they said clinton had no business bombing another country, let alone a “civilian facility”.

these guys will believe anything their party leaders will tell them to believe, no research needed. long-term contradictions mean nothing.

this goes to show you how effective neocons are with the power of persuasion (reminds me of a certain H in europe from 193x-1945).

i mentioned that the neocons seem to be falling out of favor. it seems the finger is being pointed at libby, cheney’s chief of staff, for being one of two that leaked a cia’s name for not going along with the plan. surprise surprise, he’s a strong neocon policymaker. because of this and because the niger-uraniam allegation that bush placed in his state of the union address, there seems to be a cia vs. white house showdown. there also seems to be severe infighting with the state department and the defense dept over various issues, from iraq, syria, and north korea. it’s probably worth noting that undersecretary wolfowitz, is probably the most powerful neocon policymaker in the administration. the state department (powell et al) is obviously tired of wolfowitz’s wreckless bullshit policy making.

i hope the real conservatives start to call out these neocons. together we can write legislation that puts these war hawks and their children on the front lines in the next war. let’s see if they’re still so gung ho then.

98

Danh,

You’re absolutely right – it’s extremely hard to get unbiased information on this conflict. I’m sure you heard about today’s multiple Gaza Strip strikes by Israel. Check out www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,100579,00.html for the latest. It’s sad that Americans support this, and it’s unbelievable that Americans then wonder how this could possibly anger Palestinians.

As for actually arguing against the occupation, you saw from Brian how that argument goes. To him and many others, anyone against the occupation is simply anti-Semitic. I asked him to simply tell us why Israel should occupy Palestine, but he chose not to answer.

I do agree with your point about each side needing new leadership. I do hope that Sharon gets the boot soon. Too bad Bush has his nose buried neck-deep in Sharon’s ass.

As for your comments about the damn neo-con hijackers of my party and movement, I couldn’t agree more, as you have probably noticed. There are several of us paleoconservative-libertarian types out there, and we’re really unhappy with this administration and their abject failures to take advantage of opportunities handed to them. I’m not as optimistic as you are about real conservatives taking over anytime soon, but it doesn’t hurt to hope. If they don’t, we may see WWIII soon.

99

The Jim Lehrer News Hour had on tonight an interesting interview with two gentlemen, one a retired Israeli Air Force Colonel, and the other a Palestinian scholar (of what I didn’t catch),

they are in the US promoting a peace plan they devised and have acquired more than 100,000 signatures for.

Basically it calls for a return to pre-war borders and a true Palestinian state, and for the Israeli settlers to move out of lands claimed since the war.

I believe even Sharon had suggested that moving these settlers should be considered if peace is to realistically be discussed.

-Berman’s work looks interesting, I’ve only read a little, but worth investigating, thanks.

100

In my opnion there is no answer to this conflict untill the Arab world becomes Americanized (read capalitist). As long as religous zealots rule there can be no common sense solutions. We need to send beer, playboy magazines, fortune magazines, self improvement gurus and everything that makes us unique. Once they start thinking about saving for that new car or house and getting a date with that hot chick and drinking a few beers with friends while watching the Palastine soccer team on a big screen tv they wont have time or inclination to strap bombs on their children.