[quote]FightingScott wrote:
Johnny Drama wrote:
FightingScott wrote:
Nate Dogg wrote:
FightingScott wrote:
Oh, remember when I said that you could use Olympic lifts instead of jumps on the Dynamic Effort Day? Bad Fucking Idea. I’m convinced now that WS4SB needs no tinkering.
LOL! Did you have a bad experience?
Not that I would recommend the Olympic lifts over jumping exercises, but they can be used (if done before max-effort lifts) with the right volume.
It just totally fucked up my attempts at Bench Press the next day since every posterior muscle on my body was throbbing.
I think they can be added to the Westside Template on the DE day very well. I used to do them instead of the speed lifts on the lower day and get good results. I’m not sure where you could put them on the WSFSB program.
On the DE Day.
I don’t see the difference between how it wouldn’t work for WS4SB or WSB templates. I can’t see how it would work at all. If I could put a day in between DE Legs and ME Upper Body its a possibility but with my life that just wouldn’t work. [/quote]
I substituted it in for the Speed exercise. I didn’t lift my 3rm x 9 sets. I did the same principles for the Clean as I would have for the box squat. 60% of the 1rm for 9 sets of 3. It worked well for me.
[quote]handthatfeeds wrote:
I don’t want to do this program for strength purpose , I want to do it for hypertrophy , and size.
How often should I rotate between squats and deadlifts on my lower max day?[/quote]
I think this program is better for strength and athletic performance before size. There are a few programs that are better for size but won’t help you much in the strength department.
[quote]barrs1985 wrote:
Arioch wrote:
barrs1985 wrote:
hi guys,
Have you seen some serious progress on this program? I am a huge fan of Defranco and hav learned alot from him! Am thinking of starting this program now as i think i need a balanced program rather than just going to the gym n doing what i feel like doing! Any advice for a first timer to the WS4SB type program?
Thanks.
Barrs, the best advice I think you can get for this program is; write everything down.
Seriously. Keep a log and track what you are doing and review what you have done. That way, you can figure out what works for you. It takes some time with playing around with different exercises but it pays off. Just know, the program works if you put in the effort. You will eventually find what works the best for you.
Have fun with this program!
Arioch,
thanks for the advice, i will do just that! Should be interesting and give me some direction now! Thanks again!
[/quote]
Are you the Gaelic Footballer? I play Aussie rules and the two sports are similar in many ways, obviously due to the International Rules series. I have found the WSFSB has helped my game strength and athletic wise and I’d say it will do the same for you in your chosen sport.
Stick to the program and it’s guidelines and as it has already been said, keep everything written down. Some exercises are winners for some and losers for others. The beauty part of the program is you tailor it to yourself and with experience you can do it very well.
Enjoy. It definitely beats turning up and doing whatever you feel like.
[quote]Johnny Drama wrote:
FightingScott wrote:
Johnny Drama wrote:
FightingScott wrote:
Nate Dogg wrote:
FightingScott wrote:
Oh, remember when I said that you could use Olympic lifts instead of jumps on the Dynamic Effort Day? Bad Fucking Idea. I’m convinced now that WS4SB needs no tinkering.
LOL! Did you have a bad experience?
Not that I would recommend the Olympic lifts over jumping exercises, but they can be used (if done before max-effort lifts) with the right volume.
It just totally fucked up my attempts at Bench Press the next day since every posterior muscle on my body was throbbing.
I think they can be added to the Westside Template on the DE day very well. I used to do them instead of the speed lifts on the lower day and get good results. I’m not sure where you could put them on the WSFSB program.
On the DE Day.
I don’t see the difference between how it wouldn’t work for WS4SB or WSB templates. I can’t see how it would work at all. If I could put a day in between DE Legs and ME Upper Body its a possibility but with my life that just wouldn’t work.
I substituted it in for the Speed exercise. I didn’t lift my 3rm x 9 sets. I did the same principles for the Clean as I would have for the box squat. 60% of the 1rm for 9 sets of 3. It worked well for me.[/quote]
Were you cleaning 60% of your squat or 60% of your clean? I hate to tell you this but cleaning 60% of your 1RM for 3 reps probably isn’t doing shit.
[quote]FightingScott wrote:
Were you cleaning 60% of your squat or 60% of your clean? I hate to tell you this but cleaning 60% of your 1RM for 3 reps probably isn’t doing shit.
[/quote]
Sure it is! Have you read anything by Zatsiorsky or Verkhoshanksy?
Renegade Training uses the focus lifts with 45-65% of your 1RM to develop speed and strength.
Using 60% of your 1RM for cleans, snatches, squats and other lifts does serve a valuable purpose. Remember, even Westside principles use lower percents on DE days.
FYI:
Zatsiorsky - Rate of force development, rather than absolute force itself, is the crucial factor in successful athletic performance
Verkhoshansky - An extraordinary development of absolute strength has a negative influence on speed.
Siff - Verkoshansky and colleagues has established that excessive maximum strength training can impair speed-strength and technical skill.
Siff - Considerable research has established that voluminous strength loading is detrimental to the technique of the weightlifting movements and punching speed in boxing.
Were you cleaning 60% of your squat or 60% of your clean? I hate to tell you this but cleaning 60% of your 1RM for 3 reps probably isn’t doing shit.
[/quote]
Thinking back it was probably more like 60-80% of my 1rm. My clean improved so it must have been doing something.
[quote]Johnny Drama wrote:
handthatfeeds wrote:
I don’t want to do this program for strength purpose , I want to do it for hypertrophy , and size.
How often should I rotate between squats and deadlifts on my lower max day?
I think this program is better for strength and athletic performance before size. There are a few programs that are better for size but won’t help you much in the strength department.[/quote]
WS4SB is probably one of the best programs for size if you’re a drug free lifter. It’s pretty much the same as any Dual-Factor Hypertrophy program. Break it down.
Monday - 1 DE Lower Movement and a bunch of bodybuilding-style set-reps
Tuesday - 1 Max Effort Movement and a bunch of bodybuilding-style set-reps
Thursday - 1 ME Lower Movement and a bunch of bodybuilding-style set-reps
Friday - 1 A Bunch of bodybuilding-style set-reps
If you want to do WS4SB for a bodybuilding show, then cycle breathing squats of 15-20 reps and high-rep Romanian Deadlifts as your primary move on DE days instead of doing Jumps. Now it’s no longer WS4SB. It’s a Bodybuilding Routine. All thats left is to always go for the 5RM instead of the 3RM on ME days.
Were you cleaning 60% of your squat or 60% of your clean? I hate to tell you this but cleaning 60% of your 1RM for 3 reps probably isn’t doing shit.
Thinking back it was probably more like 60-80% of my 1rm. My clean improved so it must have been doing something.[/quote]
Squatting 60% of your Max to develop speed is way different than Cleaning 60% of your max. The Clean, and any other Olympic Lift, must be done very quickly in order for the lift to be completed. If you do it slowly, it’s a partial ROM upright row with a lot of cheating. If your max Clean is slow, you’re doing it wrong. The Squat, on the other hand, doesn’t need to be as fast as the clean in order for the lift to be completed. The bar on your max squat shouldn’t move as fast as it does on your max clean.
Squatting Dynamically will teach you to make a slow lift faster.
The only way you can Squat Dynamically is with a low weight. You can’t learn bar speed on a box squat with 85% of your max.
Olympic Lifts are Always Dynamic. Lifting 60% on the clean isn’t teaching you to lift the bar faster as much as it’s teaching you to clean easy weights.
Doing Cleans with 80% of your max will make your #s move. Doing Cleans with 60% of your max will make you weaker. Furthermore, if you’re really trying to be Dynamic on your 60% Cleans and move the bar as fast as you can, then the bar should be going above your collarbone or maybe above your head.
WS4SB is probably one of the best programs for size if you’re a drug free lifter. It’s pretty much the same as any Dual-Factor Hypertrophy program. Break it down.
Monday - 1 DE Lower Movement and a bunch of bodybuilding-style set-reps
Tuesday - 1 Max Effort Movement and a bunch of bodybuilding-style set-reps
Thursday - 1 ME Lower Movement and a bunch of bodybuilding-style set-reps
Friday - 1 A Bunch of bodybuilding-style set-reps
If you want to do WS4SB for a bodybuilding show, then cycle breathing squats of 15-20 reps and high-rep Romanian Deadlifts as your primary move on DE days instead of doing Jumps. Now it’s no longer WS4SB. It’s a Bodybuilding Routine. All thats left is to always go for the 5RM instead of the 3RM on ME days. [/quote]
I’ve found programs like Thib’s OVT yielded better results for myself and my mates in terms of lean mass gains. WSFSB has been great, don’t get me wrong, but I do think there are better programs for size out there.
This is the best program, in my opinion, for improving athletic performance, increasing lifting numbers and hypertrophy all mixed in one.
Squatting 60% of your Max to develop speed is way different than Cleaning 60% of your max. The Clean, and any other Olympic Lift, must be done very quickly in order for the lift to be completed. If you do it slowly, it’s a partial ROM upright row with a lot of cheating. If your max Clean is slow, you’re doing it wrong. The Squat, on the other hand, doesn’t need to be as fast as the clean in order for the lift to be completed. The bar on your max squat shouldn’t move as fast as it does on your max clean.
[/quote]
You’re right. The movement is done fast regardless of what weight you are using where the bench and the squat typically aren’t as fast as they are performed in the the DE days.
Agree. I shouldn’t have said 60% because now that I think back to it, it would have been more like 80%.
[quote]
Doing Cleans with 80% of your max will make your #s move. Doing Cleans with 60% of your max will make you weaker. Furthermore, if you’re really trying to be Dynamic on your 60% Cleans and move the bar as fast as you can, then the bar should be going above your collarbone or maybe above your head. [/quote]
I dunno. I think a guy working with 60% could improve. The DE day isn’t supposed to be getting up near maximal effort and 80% plus would be getting towards that point. That said, Oly lifts are not intended in the Westside Programs so this is more just a discussion about where they would fit best if at all.
I think Oly lifts have a place in athletic development. At the moment I am enjoying just sticking to the program and making gains without too much tinkering.
[quote]Johnny Drama wrote:
barrs1985 wrote:
Arioch wrote:
barrs1985 wrote:
hi guys,
Have you seen some serious progress on this program? I am a huge fan of Defranco and hav learned alot from him! Am thinking of starting this program now as i think i need a balanced program rather than just going to the gym n doing what i feel like doing! Any advice for a first timer to the WS4SB type program?
Thanks.
Barrs, the best advice I think you can get for this program is; write everything down.
Seriously. Keep a log and track what you are doing and review what you have done. That way, you can figure out what works for you. It takes some time with playing around with different exercises but it pays off. Just know, the program works if you put in the effort. You will eventually find what works the best for you.
Have fun with this program!
Arioch,
thanks for the advice, i will do just that! Should be interesting and give me some direction now! Thanks again!
Are you the Gaelic Footballer? I play Aussie rules and the two sports are similar in many ways, obviously due to the International Rules series. I have found the WSFSB has helped my game strength and athletic wise and I’d say it will do the same for you in your chosen sport.
Stick to the program and it’s guidelines and as it has already been said, keep everything written down. Some exercises are winners for some and losers for others. The beauty part of the program is you tailor it to yourself and with experience you can do it very well.
Enjoy. It definitely beats turning up and doing whatever you feel like.
[/quote]
Yes i am, thats good to hear so! Im quite looking forward to this now, have a game at the weekend but hope to start monday or tuesday! Will no doubt have a few more questons once im into it!
thanks again!
quick question guys my cousin from poland came here to stay and he is strong as an ox and pretty big, he loves the elitefts.com website and he wants to start a powerlifting program, he found 2 starting programs
[quote]remixpaul wrote:
quick question guys my cousin from poland came here to stay and he is strong as an ox and pretty big, he loves the elitefts.com website and he wants to start a powerlifting program, he found 2 starting programs
so i was talkin to my cousin andhe said he would try skinny bastards by DeFranco with me after he does the 9 week program by Dave Tate, the only way he would try skiny bastards by DeFranco if after the 9 week program he does he wants to see who is stronger by having a contest, biggest bench, squat and deadlift … we will see how that goes haha
now for my question, he looked over the 9 week program and he switched around the ME excersizes and came up with these and told me to post it on the forums and if the excersiezes are a good choice …
weeks 1-3
ME lower - switch goodmornings with deadlifts
ME upper - switch board press with narrow incline bench press
weeks 4-6
ME lower - leave it the same
ME upper - switch floor press with wide grip bench press
weeks 7-8
ME lower - leave it the same
ME upper - leave it the same
Yes i am, thats good to hear so! Im quite looking forward to this now, have a game at the weekend but hope to start monday or tuesday! Will no doubt have a few more questons once im into it!
thanks again! [/quote]
If you are in the thick of your season it might be worth just doing the in-season sessions prescribed in the WSSFSB 3 manual. It depends how seriously you take your sport. I couldn’t imagine doing anything more than 3 days a week during the season. The body is just too battered and sore from the running.
Correct me if I’m wrong but one of the main concepts of Westside Barbell is that the ME exercises are changed every 3 weeks. There are reasons behind this and I don’t know how you have not realised this yet.
Is WS4SB good for an beginner/intermediate lifter? Does it provide enough frequency/time for the body to grow off of the lifts properly? I ask because the lifts seem to switch up do fast. And there are so many exercises and sets in a workout.
[quote]Der Candy wrote:
Is WS4SB good for an beginner/intermediate lifter? Does it provide enough frequency/time for the body to grow off of the lifts properly? I ask because the lifts seem to switch up do fast. And there are so many exercises and sets in a workout.[/quote]
It’s a great program for the beginner/intermediate lifter. I fucked around for too many years doing my own shit due to a poor education in the beginning from a bodybuilder. Getting into WSFSB is a great start and will point the person in question in the right direction for years to come.
In regards to the amount of exercises and sets in a workout, read the first post of this thread and click on the links. They should answer your questions.
