Writing Fiction

Off Topic
41

I own my own production company starting from the ground up. I went to college for the creative arts and I write novels and screenplays. The best thing you can do IMO is get a college education. I’m not saying you can’t write successfully without one, but it really helped me out.

Writing is something that always came easy to me. I remember when I was in college I wrote a musical script in a couple of days…first draft of course but it was a painless process to me. When everything was finally done (music took much longer)the musical debuted in front of a crowd of 400+ and got really good reviews.

Basically what I’m saying is writing is a process that anyone can do. How well you do it though is up to you. Do ideas come easily to you? Do your words seem to float from your head straight to the page? Or are you someone who looks at everyday life and ideas come to you from experience? First process for any writer to be successful IMO is find what works for THEM. Its like finding out how you learn. I have a photographic memory and I also learn from doing something myself. Knowing that I was able to do certain things in college to Help myself do better on exams based on how I learn. (Flashcards doing problems over and over etc) Writing is the same way…you have to recognize YOUR process.

Dialouge is very tricky to me. You have to know every single detail about your character in order to know how they would respond or talk in general. Where is that character from? What history does he have? IF your character has a cockney accent a russian accent or such, their dialect, and rhythm of speech will change. Is your character very educated? If so they might speak in a “High” speech.

EXAMPLE:
“Billy! Boy! Put down that toy! You know how I get when you do something wrong!”
“Billy, Son, put the toy back where it belongs. I get very upset when you misbehave in public.”

Can you tell the difference between the two tones? Each character has a history and a background but they convey the same message to their son. By the way they speak can you tell what sex they are? This is something thats very important as well. Dialogue is also about RHYTHM. Based on your character are the words short and choppy? Or do they flow with elegance?

EXAMPLE:
“You say I have a history of Violence? I say I have a Violent history of accosting people.”
“Violence is not about what I do, Its about who I do it to.”
“Yeah violent? I’m violent. Who wants to know?”
“Hell yes, I’m very violent”

Another example of RHYTHM. Whether its short and choppy or long and elagant with complex words doesn’t matter. Why is your character talking this way? Pay attention to each sentence and how certain words/letters are repeated to make the sentence flow in it’s own way.

42

[quote]Professor X wrote:

[quote]Brother Chris wrote:

Nice avatar there, sir. Why exactly did you cut your head off?[/quote]

Brand New hair style.

You are so 2009.[/quote]

Bring back the fro.

When I said “Anybody with a jheri curl looks better with their head cut off” I didn’t think you’d take it literally.

43

"They’re fancy talkers about themselves, writers. If I had to give young writers advice, I would say don’t listen to writers talk about writing or themselves. "

Lillian Hellman

44

I am writer. That is my Vocation, but not my career.

I can’t help you ‘write ‘good’ dialogue.’ No one can. Writing is highly Aesthetic, and Individual. Thus in the final analysis writing is very nebulous. The ‘Science of Writing’, is really just imitation and or repetition, of previous Work(s).

Work(s) of the past and present, and future, are really just Expressions. These Expressions, begin however, inside the writer, and come from their Perception(s).

Originality of Perception(s) and Expression(s) is I think what you mean by ‘good writing’ OP.

‘Good’ however, can mean many things in many contexts.

Whom is telling you, this dialogue is ‘bad’, BTW?

Is everything being rejected?

Just 'cause you get rejected shit tons, does not mean you need to change. Maybe just wait for a ‘new’ market to surface, or the current one(s) to shift its interests just enough.

You also must wrestle with this; ‘Whom do I need to please more, myself or the world?’

Be honest, it’s okay if you are ‘Called’ to please as many people as possible, and in a sense have no overshadowing individual persona, in your work, but are instead the ‘voice of a people.’

If writing is ‘complete’ when you are merely published, I don’t think I can be of much use to you. I mean, I guess I could help you ‘write to your market’, however that’s nothing I do myself, and it’s nothing I would help someone do. It’s against my Aesthetic Philosophy.

I am willing to go back in forth with you about this stuff. You could PM me some of your Work, and I’ll be happy to tell you what I think, but I am a strange one, even for a writer…

Any ways, hit me back with any questions about whatever in writing, it is my Souls Work. I MUST write, and it’s great to have some writers here, as I am not a social person…

45

[quote]Yo Momma wrote:
"They’re fancy talkers about themselves, writers. If I had to give young writers advice, I would say don’t listen to writers talk about writing or themselves. "

Lillian Hellman

[/quote]

Solid advice.

46

[quote]Yo Momma wrote:
"They’re fancy talkers about themselves, writers. If I had to give young writers advice, I would say don’t listen to writers talk about writing or themselves. "

Lillian Hellman

[/quote]

That’s a nice quote. Some writers contributed more to their world, in fixins than in the meat. Hellman is one, to me any ways. Some of here observations about writing, and so forth, please more than anything she ever produced artistically.

Said quote is taken, out of context of her work and life, etc, and inserted quixotically here for no apparent reason. It might be enough to kill the thread though…

47

Like I said…anyone can write. You just have to find YOUR own process

48

[quote]Antares wrote:
I can’t help you ‘write ‘good’ dialogue.’[/quote]

Then STFU and GTFO.

49

[quote]Antares wrote:

[quote]Yo Momma wrote:
"They’re fancy talkers about themselves, writers. If I had to give young writers advice, I would say don’t listen to writers talk about writing or themselves. "

Lillian Hellman

[/quote]

That’s a nice quote. Some writers contributed more to their world, in fixins than in the meat. Hellman is one, to me any ways. Some of here observations about writing, and so forth, please more than anything she ever produced artistically.

Said quote is taken, out of context of her work and life, etc, and inserted quixotically here for no apparent reason. It might be enough to kill the thread though…[/quote]

The quote is not out of context. The reason is apparent.

50

[quote]FrozenNinja wrote:
Like I said…anyone can write. You just have to find YOUR own process[/quote]

And yet some can write better than others.

And some can write much better than others.

And some can’t write for shit.

51

As mentioned, get “On Writing” by Stephen King. It’s the best guidebook for fiction writing, bar none (“Story” by Robert McKee is also decent, but IMO he spends too much time dissecting existing works. He’s also never had any of his stories sold, aside from his book on how to get stories sold.)

On Writing can be read in an afternoon, as a third of the book is about King’s recovery from getting nailed by a minivan and can be skipped over. A few points he makes…

1.) You can turn from a “good” writer to a “very good” writer, but not from a “bad” writer to a “good” writer. You either have some innate level of competency, or you don’t. I myself am a horrible artist, and no amount of study or practice could make me good…I just don’t have the gift.

2.) Write what you’re good at. He mentions that his hero, H.P. Lovecraft, was a great horror writer but absolutely terrible at writing dialog…so he made his books exposition-heavy and barely made his characters talk.

3.) Avoid adverbs: This is such awesome advice, it should be mentioned twice. Avoid adverbs. The mark of a shitty writer is flinging adverbs all over the page. They should be used like jalapeno peppers are used in cooking…sparingly and carefully. You want your reader you create their own vision of the story you’re telling, and with too many adverbs it’s like you’re trying to force them to see things a certain way.

4.) Most of what you write will be shit: The term King uses is “Kill your babies”. It’s not like Conrad, Hemingway or Dostoevsky wrote their masterpieces from beginning to end, with words flowing perfectly from their brains to the paper. They likely threw away 20 pages for every 2 that made print. Just focus on writing…you can worry about the editing later. It’s much easier to write 20 pages, sleep and separate the wheat from the chaff the next morning than to sit down and write 2 perfect pages.

52

[quote]PimpBot5000 wrote:
4.) Most of what you write will be shit: The term King uses is “Kill your babies”. It’s not like Conrad, Hemingway or Dostoevsky wrote their masterpieces from beginning to end, with words flowing perfectly from their brains to the paper. They likely threw away 20 pages for every 2 that made print. Just focus on writing…you can worry about the editing later. It’s much easier to write 20 pages, sleep and separate the wheat from the chaff the next morning than to sit down and write 2 perfect pages. [/quote]

Great point.

I got a book once… “Great Short Stories” or something. I recognised every writer featured. They were all critically acclaimed, and I had (and still have) great admiration for most of them.

All of the stories were crap, without exception. They weren’t even entertaining.

They all wrote a lot of good stuff, and a lot of crap.

53

I do not recall, but I heard The Element of Style is S.O.P.

54

[quote]PimpBot5000 wrote:
As mentioned, get “On Writing” by Stephen King. It’s the best guidebook for fiction writing, bar none (“Story” by Robert McKee is also decent, but IMO he spends too much time dissecting existing works. He’s also never had any of his stories sold, aside from his book on how to get stories sold.)

On Writing can be read in an afternoon, as a third of the book is about King’s recovery from getting nailed by a minivan and can be skipped over. A few points he makes…

1.) You can turn from a “good” writer to a “very good” writer, but not from a “bad” writer to a “good” writer. You either have some innate level of competency, or you don’t. I myself am a horrible artist, and no amount of study or practice could make me good…I just don’t have the gift.

2.) Write what you’re good at. He mentions that his hero, H.P. Lovecraft, was a great horror writer but absolutely terrible at writing dialog…so he made his books exposition-heavy and barely made his characters talk.

3.) Avoid adverbs: This is such awesome advice, it should be mentioned twice. Avoid adverbs. The mark of a shitty writer is flinging adverbs all over the page. They should be used like jalapeno peppers are used in cooking…sparingly and carefully. You want your reader you create their own vision of the story you’re telling, and with too many adverbs it’s like you’re trying to force them to see things a certain way.

4.) Most of what you write will be shit: The term King uses is “Kill your babies”. It’s not like Conrad, Hemingway or Dostoevsky wrote their masterpieces from beginning to end, with words flowing perfectly from their brains to the paper. They likely threw away 20 pages for every 2 that made print. Just focus on writing…you can worry about the editing later. It’s much easier to write 20 pages, sleep and separate the wheat from the chaff the next morning than to sit down and write 2 perfect pages. [/quote]

Great post. I love to write, but the more good writing I read, the more realize, “Wow, I ain’t shit.”

In a good way.

OP,

You need to be fucking prolific. You need to just write even when you don’t think you’re “on.” You may have a “hit rate” of, say, 20%, but you won’t know if that 20% will come in one chunk over the course of 10,000 words, or if you’ll have to write 100,000 words and the first 5% and last 15% are “money.”

Follow?

The problem with most “writers” is that they play copy cat. They THINK they have to stuff a sentence with metaphors and adjectives and end up posing and therefore losing credibility with an enthusiastic reader. Stay away from fluff.

Beyond grammar and syntax you should really learn the art of word choice.

I highly recommend picking up the “Best American…” series: Best American Travel Writing, Best American Sports Writing, Best American Magazine Writing. A lot of the stuff is non-fiction but they are literary pieces - you could learn a lot from reading them.

Good to see some writers on here. Much respect for the craft.

55

From my editing professor:

  1. Good book on modern grammar:

Diana Hacker’s Bedford Handbook; also, Scott Rice’s Right Words, Right Places. Hacker’s book is a really basic grammar handbook. Scott’s is a more sophisticated discussion of grammatical forms as CHOICES that have particular effects.

  1. Editing book:

Richard Lanham’s Revising Prose.

  1. Punctuation book:

Eats, Shoots & Leaves by Lynn Truss

  1. Elements of Style by Strunk & White

Also good is Zinsser’s On Writing Well.

56

Never use a twenty-five-cent word when a ten-cent word will do.

â?? Mark Twain

Robert Heinlein kept a counter attached to the space bar on his typewriter to ensure he was paid properly for all his works. lol.

57

Formula: 2nd Draft = 1st Draft - 10%

58

When do you professional writers write?

Do you have a designated writing area?

What kind of atmosphere do you create to write?

59

[quote]Brother Chris wrote:
When do you professional writers write?

Do you have a designated writing area?

What kind of atmosphere do you create to write?[/quote]

I write at my desk in the magazine’s office. I stare at a bunch of pseudo-hipster, anti-bro culture (I mean ACTIVELY anti-bro) wannabe beatnik fags all over the room. My editor is really cool though, and some of the chicks are pretty hot and usually they don’t mind if I play a lot of INXS and James Brown. I’m convinced that every time one of the chicks there makes eye contact with me or refers to me by name this is a clear sign they want to sit on my face and then my dick.

I am also convinced that my overtly alpha aura, combined with my loud and frequent retelling of whatever “gun fun” I had that weekend (they’re all a bunch of anti-gun fags too) intimidates them all.

Only with this sort of outlandsih behavior in the office can I pump up my ego enough to convince myself that whatever I write is pure fucking gold. I work up in my head that I am a supremely more talented writer than any of the other writers (I am) and that whatever I write is infinitely better than anything they could ever dream of writing. This gets me so full of myself and my talents that I tend to get a little…experimental with how I write because I become so convinced everything I write is the shit.

I think the net effect is that what I write ends up, at worst, being unique compared to everyone else’s drivel and at best really is pure fucking gold. But all of this really stems from this incessant pressure I feel to deliver Every Single Week No Matter What. I live in constant fear of Writer’s Block as well, and I’ve had it bad. One week I wrote a column that was nothing but the word “areola” written over and over in various fonts about 800 times. Naturally, the title was “Writer’s Block”. Truth be told, while I think I am a very good writer, I am motivated in part by a gnawing fear that I am the only one who thinks I am any good.

Of course, I have total autonomy regarding what I write. I have my own column that I can write 800-1000 words every week in any style I want and about anything I want. My only rule, that I impose upon myself, is that no one read my shit, get to the end of it and say “so what?”. Unless it’s something written purely for humor’s sake, in which case I hope they’re laughing more at the fact that someone actually had the balls to write what it is I have written more than the actual humor itself.

For instance, after a couple of rapes on one of the bike paths near the college here, I wrote a column about them. But not some bullshit “why does this happen, we need more police” thing. I wrote about how I had fantasized about being a real-life vigilante and that I was already halfway there because I am sexually-frustrated, I can run really fast and I have all of these things that I proceeded to list off, ranging from a Joe Montana jersey to nunchuks to a chainsaw to a shitload of fireworks to polarized snowboarding goggles to smelling salts.

I went on to write about some fictional scenario where I saved a woman and so on and concluded by asking what’s to stop any other concerned citizen from doing the same. No joke, the next week there really was some “vigilante” arrested after beating the shit out of a couple punks with a baseball bat who had tried to jump some kid on that very bike path.

I also get to interview some cool musicians/groups. I’ve interviewed Richard Patrick from Filter a couple times, Nas, Snoop, Lamb of God, Andre Nickatina, Tech Nine, Insane Clown Posse, Puddle of Mud, Wynton Marsalis, Static-X, Dropkick Murphys, Del tha Funky Homosapien, a couple porn stars, and I also got to spend the weekend with a bunch of strippers under the guise of doing an article about a night in the life of a stripper in a small college town. Fucked one of them too.

I get to go to any concert in town that I want for free and if there’s assigned seating, I usually get good seats. I used to hate doing it and would only interview people if they were really big names playing in town (Nas was my first) but once I realized that all the musicians don’t mind talking about drugs, I loved it. For some reason, not that many people who interview just come right out and ask them “so, let’s get down to brass tacks here: what kind of drugs are you on?” or “what kinds of groupies do you prefer to bang and what sort of drugs should they bring with them?”

I’m rambling here. What motivates me to write is A) a paycheck B) seeing my name is print and knowing that people out there are reading it (this has led to my name being very recognizable in town, which hasn’t always been a good thing) C) a constantly looming deadline D) I like writing. I like to hear my own voice, and writing is just another way for me to hear it.

I’ll admit, there’s a lot of ego involved too. It’s what I’m good at and I enjoy the fact that I am the most widely-read writer in the magazine and my columns regularly get more emails/letters (both positive and negative) than all the other writers combined each week.

I can write anywhere that I can plug my laptop in and like I said, I create an atmosphere in which I fucking loathe everyone around me for being forced to sit in their less-than-worthy presence and am fully convinced in my overwhelming ability. This can have horrific consequences on my personal relationships with these people, but I make sure not to affect this attitude at all outside of the office. I think they all understand that I’m kind of a character anyways.

I would advise other writers to not worry about the setting in which you write, as long as it’s conducive to writing prolifically. If you can write anywhere, like me, then great. If you have to write in one location, great. But the location isn’t going to be what makes or breaks your writing. Shit, I’ve written columns sitting on my roof shooting off fist-sized mortars and/or bottle rockets every few minutes and I’ve written shit in my little home office space at four in the morning after drinking way too much coffee.

I’ve had to wake up in the middle of the night to take a piss, realized that I won’t have time to get to the office to do my column the next day and had to sit down and write it right then and there before I forgot.

60

[quote]DBCooper wrote:

[quote]Brother Chris wrote:
When do you professional writers write?

Do you have a designated writing area?

What kind of atmosphere do you create to write?[/quote]

I write at my desk in the magazine’s office. I stare at a bunch of pseudo-hipster, anti-bro culture (I mean ACTIVELY anti-bro) wannabe beatnik fags all over the room. My editor is really cool though, and some of the chicks are pretty hot and usually they don’t mind if I play a lot of INXS and James Brown. I’m convinced that every time one of the chicks there makes eye contact with me or refers to me by name this is a clear sign they want to sit on my face and then my dick.

I am also convinced that my overtly alpha aura, combined with my loud and frequent retelling of whatever “gun fun” I had that weekend (they’re all a bunch of anti-gun fags too) intimidates them all.

Only with this sort of outlandsih behavior in the office can I pump up my ego enough to convince myself that whatever I write is pure fucking gold. I work up in my head that I am a supremely more talented writer than any of the other writers (I am) and that whatever I write is infinitely better than anything they could ever dream of writing. This gets me so full of myself and my talents that I tend to get a little…experimental with how I write because I become so convinced everything I write is the shit.

I think the net effect is that what I write ends up, at worst, being unique compared to everyone else’s drivel and at best really is pure fucking gold. But all of this really stems from this incessant pressure I feel to deliver Every Single Week No Matter What. I live in constant fear of Writer’s Block as well, and I’ve had it bad. One week I wrote a column that was nothing but the word “areola” written over and over in various fonts about 800 times. Naturally, the title was “Writer’s Block”. Truth be told, while I think I am a very good writer, I am motivated in part by a gnawing fear that I am the only one who thinks I am any good.

Of course, I have total autonomy regarding what I write. I have my own column that I can write 800-1000 words every week in any style I want and about anything I want. My only rule, that I impose upon myself, is that no one read my shit, get to the end of it and say “so what?”. Unless it’s something written purely for humor’s sake, in which case I hope they’re laughing more at the fact that someone actually had the balls to write what it is I have written more than the actual humor itself.

For instance, after a couple of rapes on one of the bike paths near the college here, I wrote a column about them. But not some bullshit “why does this happen, we need more police” thing. I wrote about how I had fantasized about being a real-life vigilante and that I was already halfway there because I am sexually-frustrated, I can run really fast and I have all of these things that I proceeded to list off, ranging from a Joe Montana jersey to nunchuks to a chainsaw to a shitload of fireworks to polarized snowboarding goggles to smelling salts.

I went on to write about some fictional scenario where I saved a woman and so on and concluded by asking what’s to stop any other concerned citizen from doing the same. No joke, the next week there really was some “vigilante” arrested after beating the shit out of a couple punks with a baseball bat who had tried to jump some kid on that very bike path.

I also get to interview some cool musicians/groups. I’ve interviewed Richard Patrick from Filter a couple times, Nas, Snoop, Lamb of God, Andre Nickatina, Tech Nine, Insane Clown Posse, Puddle of Mud, Wynton Marsalis, Static-X, Dropkick Murphys, Del tha Funky Homosapien, a couple porn stars, and I also got to spend the weekend with a bunch of strippers under the guise of doing an article about a night in the life of a stripper in a small college town. Fucked one of them too.

I get to go to any concert in town that I want for free and if there’s assigned seating, I usually get good seats. I used to hate doing it and would only interview people if they were really big names playing in town (Nas was my first) but once I realized that all the musicians don’t mind talking about drugs, I loved it. For some reason, not that many people who interview just come right out and ask them “so, let’s get down to brass tacks here: what kind of drugs are you on?” or “what kinds of groupies do you prefer to bang and what sort of drugs should they bring with them?”

I’m rambling here. What motivates me to write is A) a paycheck B) seeing my name is print and knowing that people out there are reading it (this has led to my name being very recognizable in town, which hasn’t always been a good thing) C) a constantly looming deadline D) I like writing. I like to hear my own voice, and writing is just another way for me to hear it.

I’ll admit, there’s a lot of ego involved too. It’s what I’m good at and I enjoy the fact that I am the most widely-read writer in the magazine and my columns regularly get more emails/letters (both positive and negative) than all the other writers combined each week.

I can write anywhere that I can plug my laptop in and like I said, I create an atmosphere in which I fucking loathe everyone around me for being forced to sit in their less-than-worthy presence and am fully convinced in my overwhelming ability. This can have horrific consequences on my personal relationships with these people, but I make sure not to affect this attitude at all outside of the office. I think they all understand that I’m kind of a character anyways.

I would advise other writers to not worry about the setting in which you write, as long as it’s conducive to writing prolifically. If you can write anywhere, like me, then great. If you have to write in one location, great. But the location isn’t going to be what makes or breaks your writing. Shit, I’ve written columns sitting on my roof shooting off fist-sized mortars and/or bottle rockets every few minutes and I’ve written shit in my little home office space at four in the morning after drinking way too much coffee.

I’ve had to wake up in the middle of the night to take a piss, realized that I won’t have time to get to the office to do my column the next day and had to sit down and write it right then and there before I forgot.[/quote]

So you sit down to pee?