Anybody out there consider themselves a writer and know any good books or sites that contain good information on how to write fiction? Especially dialogue? I’m a good non-fiction writer. I can write good essays and similar things, however, I suck at fiction…which is a flaw since my goal is to be a published fiction writer haha My biggest weakness is dialogue though. Everything I try to write just sounds soooo cheesey. Anyone got any resources they wouldn’t mind sharing?
[quote]benos4752 wrote:
Anybody out there consider themselves a writer and know any good books or sites that contain good information on how to write fiction? Especially dialogue? I’m a good non-fiction writer. I can write good essays and similar things, however, I suck at fiction…which is a flaw since my goal is to be a published fiction writer haha My biggest weakness is dialogue though. Everything I try to write just sounds soooo cheesey. Anyone got any resources they wouldn’t mind sharing?[/quote]
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[quote]benos4752 wrote:
Anybody out there consider themselves a writer and know any good books or sites that contain good information on how to write fiction? Especially dialogue? I’m a good non-fiction writer. I can write good essays and similar things, however, I suck at fiction…which is a flaw since my goal is to be a published fiction writer haha My biggest weakness is dialogue though. Everything I try to write just sounds soooo cheesey. Anyone got any resources they wouldn’t mind sharing?[/quote]
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You will get the help you are looking for…Hope that helps
[quote]benos4752 wrote:
Anybody out there consider themselves a writer and know any good books or sites that contain good information on how to write fiction? Especially dialogue? I’m a good non-fiction writer. I can write good essays and similar things, however, I suck at fiction…which is a flaw since my goal is to be a published fiction writer haha My biggest weakness is dialogue though. Everything I try to write just sounds soooo cheesey. Anyone got any resources they wouldn’t mind sharing?[/quote]
I’m a writer.
What do you mean you suck at it? Do you mean your subjects suck, or that you don’t know what to write, or what? Or is it just dialogue that presents a problem?
My big thing with dialogue is that I don’t write shit that people wouldn’t really say. Don’t write it like it’s a soap opera, or try to make great leaping sentences- that’s what your background and all is for. Your dialogue should just be what the people are saying, and having it be said as you would tell somebody.
Read Hemingway, who is a master of telling a story nearly solely through dialogue. Also read people like Raymond Carver or Kerouac…also very good at dialogue.
A drill that helped me figure out what I wanted to do was to write things ONLY in dialogue. Take a conversation- mine was a conversation with my father about his own father dying, but it happened when both of us were a little tuned up.
Don’t explain it, don’t use any backstory, nothing, that’s not in quotes. Only what you two are saying. Once you’re done writing it, give it to somebody else and see if they can guess what your plotline was, or what was going on in your head. The closer that person comes, the better you’re doing.
Ask them what would have made things clearer, what parts or sentence muddled the perception and brought them off track, etc.
Really a good exercise.
fiction is just elaborate bullshit stories. I dont write them down but I tell them to people sometimes for entertainment purposes. also, do what fighting irish says, because no one wants to read a bunch of extra bullshit for no fucking reason.
[quote]benos4752 wrote:
Anybody out there consider themselves a writer and know any good books or sites that contain good information on how to write fiction? Especially dialogue? I’m a good non-fiction writer. I can write good essays and similar things, however, I suck at fiction…which is a flaw since my goal is to be a published fiction writer haha My biggest weakness is dialogue though. Everything I try to write just sounds soooo cheesey. Anyone got any resources they wouldn’t mind sharing?[/quote]
Like FightinIrish said, fiction writing mandates that you include some dialogue, unless you’re brave enough to attempt a story that has only one character in it. Dialogue is tough because for many people it is hard to write in a conversational tone, even when not writing dialogue.
Hemingway was a master at writing dialogue, but he also had a very minimalist approach to what he wrote. Lots of short, declarative sentences that, when stacked on top of each other, come across well as a conversation between two people. Although I wouldn’t say he’s a master at dialogue, or fiction in general, the dialogue by Hunter S. Thompson in Fear and Loathing in Las Vegas is excellently written. He has a knack throughout the book of adding a sentence or two or three to the end of a sentence from one of the characters (in this case representing the thoughts of Duke) that add emotion/feelings/mood to the conversation taking place.
Practice that when writing dialogue. Describe the look on the people’s faces as you go along, or their actions, the thoughts of the characters as the talking is going on, their surroundings, etc. It helps to create the scenario in the reader’s mind and helps them feel as if they are a part of the conversation.
Another thing about fiction is the pace/length of the sentences. I find that as the plot moves along, the sentences should kind of mimic the pace of what is unfolding. In order to build suspense (which is easier to do in third-person rather than first-person narrative, because you can show the reader what the main character cannot yet see) you should speed up the action a little bit by using shorter sentences that come across as rapidfire descriptions of what is happening. For more introspective, philosophical, descriptive, background info-giving and other such scenes, stretch it out a bit and use longer sentences that slow things down a bit.
Also, completely ditch everything you learned about formal writing. You can use runon sentences, you can say and this and that and this and that (as long as it evokes the mood you are going for; I find that this can help carry along action and create a bit of a sense of urgency when used correctly), sentence structure doesn’t matter that much. You are telling a story and it must be told the same way you might tell one in real life, but with more flourish and less formality. That is, you don’t speak with a sense of formality in real life.
Prose style is important as well, but this just comes with time. It also is heavily influenced by who you read. Although he can get a little longwinded at times, Norman Mailer has perhaps my favorite prose style. I heavily recommend reading An American Dream by Mailer. The prose is great. He describes things in this book in a very unique way, uses dialogue well and he varies the pace at which the action occurs. Another one by him that has a great prose style is Harlot’s Ghost. This book is a fucking whopper at about 1200 pages, but again, the style is exquisite. Also read his first novel, The Naked and the Dead, to see how his prose style had changed from his first novel in 1948 to An American Dream in 1965 and then Harlot’s Ghost in 1991. There is a major difference in the way he writes between TNATD and AAD and you can clearly see his growth as a fictional writer from one to the next.
Some other writers who you might want to check out specifically for their style:
Chuck Pahlaniuk (minimalist in nature, much like Hemingway, but his minimalism conveys a sense of nihilism that furthers the subject matters he covers)
Irvine Welsh (not afraid to put a shitload of slang in his writing)
Don DeLillo (he’s good at dialogue, but he’s also excellent at using first-person narrative to convey the thoughts of the narrator)
Joseph Conrad (his overall tone is a little “old-sounding”, but the way he describes things is excellent)
Graham Greene (another great one for dialogue, but he also moves the action along very quickly at times, such as The Quiet American or The Third Man, and is great at conveying suspense in a minimalist way, much like Hemingway)
Bret Easton Ellis (American Psycho is a heavily underrated book in my opinion. The way he conveys the disgust of Bateman toward everyone around him is perfect, and his dialogue is great at being two things at once, since Bateman in many ways is saying one thing and thinking another, or is saying something in one tone that really has a totally different meaning than the tone in which it is said. The book is also a lesson in the art of dark, dry humor.)
I also recommend a lot of the “New Journalists” from the 60’s-70’s. They wrote non-fiction, but used fiction-writing techniques to do so. Hunter S. Thompson expanded this technique (some say he created New Journalism and THEN expanded it) into Gonzo Journalism, in which the writer is not only using fiction techniques but has interjected himself into what is happening, thereby removing any objectivity and becoming a character himself. Some of the New Journalists to check out:
Michael Herr’s Dispatches (a non-fictional account of the Vietnam War)
The Electric Kool-Acid Test by Tom Wolfe
anything written in the mid to late 60’s by sportswriter Jimmy Breslin
George Plimpton
Joan Didion
Hunter S. Thompson, specifically Fear and Loathing in Las Vegas and Fear…on the Campaign Trail: '72, The Curse of Lono, Hell’s Angels (pre-Gonzo, early example of New Journalism) and anything out of The Great Shark Hunt
Pick up On Writing by Stephen King. Good read, should be helpful.
Another thing about fiction, if you plan on writing something of serious length, is to have a plan ahead of time. Write out a synopsis of the plot, then get specific. What will happen in each chapter? Write down a one-page bio of each character and how they are integral to the plot. How do they advance what is being said? What are you trying to say?
Many of the great novels say something about us as human beings, whether they say something about the times in which they were written (1984, Brave New World, American Psycho), the nature of mankind (A Clockwork Orange, Lord of the Flies) or something more specific, like the nature of death or relationships, or love or fear. Why is what you are saying important?
You don’t have to Say Something though. But again, what are you writing? A mystery? A suspense-thriller? A love story? A love story with a happy ending or a sad ending? Something totally bizarre? Remember, the speed and pace of what is written should further what is happening in the story. Identify something in the theme of the story that everyone can relate to and expand on this.
The narrative voice you use is important as well. Like I said earlier, suspense is better off in third person, whereas a book that has a lot of emotion in it may be better in firstperson. I find that dialogue is easier in first person, because you can get heavily into the thoughts of one character, rather than having to do so for multiple characters.
Is it a mystery or a thriller? Focus on the fear of the characters. We can all relate to fear, so we can become invested in the fear of the characters. If you’re writing about homosexuality, we can’t all relate to this, along with things like racial tension, traveling in a dangerous, foreign nation, having a child, having your heart smashed to pieces. These are all things that not everyone experiences, but there are things about these experiences that we can relate to. In this case, persecution, feeling out of place, fear, elation, apprehension and emotional pain.
Also, don’t be afraid to write in a non-linear way. You don’t have to start with chapter 1, then go to chp 2 and so on. Do you know how you want the book to end? Are there specific events that you want to have happen? Write this stuff in whatever order you want, and then fill in the gaps later. Or write it entirely chronologically and see where it takes you.
And don’t be afraid to let your influences show. It’s okay if people read your stuff and say “well, I can tell he’s into Hemingway” or “he must be a big fan of Faulkner” or “I can clearly see the influence of writers like Tolstoy in his subject matter”. Just don’t copy them. Let their styles help develop yours, rather than try to mimic their styles. What is it you like about your favorite writers? Identify these things and then use them to develop your own writing.
One last piece of advice: share what you write with other people, especially other well-read people. You don’t want to pander to the lowest common denominator, so disregard the advice of someone who reads one book every other year. Similarly, disregard the advice of someone who reads nothing but the latest bullshit from Sue Grafton or John Grisham or someone who only reads a very specific genre and hasn’t read and appreciated some of the classics. If they’ve read everything by Danielle Steele and have never heard of Dashiel Hammett or John le Carre, then don’t take your budding spy/mystery novel to them for advice or constructive criticism. Likewise, don’t take your love story to someone who’s favorite writer is Tom Clancy. Seek advice from other writers as well, but don’t share too much of one thing with them, because some will steal your ideas.
[quote]DBCooper wrote:
[quote]benos4752 wrote:
Anybody out there consider themselves a writer and know any good books or sites that contain good information on how to write fiction? Especially dialogue? I’m a good non-fiction writer. I can write good essays and similar things, however, I suck at fiction…which is a flaw since my goal is to be a published fiction writer haha My biggest weakness is dialogue though. Everything I try to write just sounds soooo cheesey. Anyone got any resources they wouldn’t mind sharing?[/quote]
Like FightinIrish said, fiction writing mandates that you include some dialogue, unless you’re brave enough to attempt a story that has only one character in it. Dialogue is tough because for many people it is hard to write in a conversational tone, even when not writing dialogue.
Hemingway was a master at writing dialogue, but he also had a very minimalist approach to what he wrote. Lots of short, declarative sentences that, when stacked on top of each other, come across well as a conversation between two people. Although I wouldn’t say he’s a master at dialogue, or fiction in general, the dialogue by Hunter S. Thompson in Fear and Loathing in Las Vegas is excellently written. He has a knack throughout the book of adding a sentence or two or three to the end of a sentence from one of the characters (in this case representing the thoughts of Duke) that add emotion/feelings/mood to the conversation taking place.
Practice that when writing dialogue. Describe the look on the people’s faces as you go along, or their actions, the thoughts of the characters as the talking is going on, their surroundings, etc. It helps to create the scenario in the reader’s mind and helps them feel as if they are a part of the conversation.
Another thing about fiction is the pace/length of the sentences. I find that as the plot moves along, the sentences should kind of mimic the pace of what is unfolding. In order to build suspense (which is easier to do in third-person rather than first-person narrative, because you can show the reader what the main character cannot yet see) you should speed up the action a little bit by using shorter sentences that come across as rapidfire descriptions of what is happening. For more introspective, philosophical, descriptive, background info-giving and other such scenes, stretch it out a bit and use longer sentences that slow things down a bit.
Also, completely ditch everything you learned about formal writing. You can use runon sentences, you can say and this and that and this and that (as long as it evokes the mood you are going for; I find that this can help carry along action and create a bit of a sense of urgency when used correctly), sentence structure doesn’t matter that much. You are telling a story and it must be told the same way you might tell one in real life, but with more flourish and less formality. That is, you don’t speak with a sense of formality in real life.
Prose style is important as well, but this just comes with time. It also is heavily influenced by who you read. Although he can get a little longwinded at times, Norman Mailer has perhaps my favorite prose style. I heavily recommend reading An American Dream by Mailer. The prose is great. He describes things in this book in a very unique way, uses dialogue well and he varies the pace at which the action occurs. Another one by him that has a great prose style is Harlot’s Ghost. This book is a fucking whopper at about 1200 pages, but again, the style is exquisite. Also read his first novel, The Naked and the Dead, to see how his prose style had changed from his first novel in 1948 to An American Dream in 1965 and then Harlot’s Ghost in 1991. There is a major difference in the way he writes between TNATD and AAD and you can clearly see his growth as a fictional writer from one to the next.
Some other writers who you might want to check out specifically for their style:
Chuck Pahlaniuk (minimalist in nature, much like Hemingway, but his minimalism conveys a sense of nihilism that furthers the subject matters he covers)
Irvine Welsh (not afraid to put a shitload of slang in his writing)
Don DeLillo (he’s good at dialogue, but he’s also excellent at using first-person narrative to convey the thoughts of the narrator)
Joseph Conrad (his overall tone is a little “old-sounding”, but the way he describes things is excellent)
Graham Greene (another great one for dialogue, but he also moves the action along very quickly at times, such as The Quiet American or The Third Man, and is great at conveying suspense in a minimalist way, much like Hemingway)
Bret Easton Ellis (American Psycho is a heavily underrated book in my opinion. The way he conveys the disgust of Bateman toward everyone around him is perfect, and his dialogue is great at being two things at once, since Bateman in many ways is saying one thing and thinking another, or is saying something in one tone that really has a totally different meaning than the tone in which it is said. The book is also a lesson in the art of dark, dry humor.)
I also recommend a lot of the “New Journalists” from the 60’s-70’s. They wrote non-fiction, but used fiction-writing techniques to do so. Hunter S. Thompson expanded this technique (some say he created New Journalism and THEN expanded it) into Gonzo Journalism, in which the writer is not only using fiction techniques but has interjected himself into what is happening, thereby removing any objectivity and becoming a character himself. Some of the New Journalists to check out:
Michael Herr’s Dispatches (a non-fictional account of the Vietnam War)
The Electric Kool-Acid Test by Tom Wolfe
anything written in the mid to late 60’s by sportswriter Jimmy Breslin
George Plimpton
Joan Didion
Hunter S. Thompson, specifically Fear and Loathing in Las Vegas and Fear…on the Campaign Trail: '72, The Curse of Lono, Hell’s Angels (pre-Gonzo, early example of New Journalism) and anything out of The Great Shark Hunt [/quote]
You and I, my friend, would get along famously.
Great fucking post, top to bottom. I hope you’re a teacher of writing. I could always just do it but could never teach it because I can’t understand how someone doesn’t have a voice. You seem to get it though.
[quote]DBCooper wrote:
And don’t be afraid to let your influences show. It’s okay if people read your stuff and say “well, I can tell he’s into Hemingway” or “he must be a big fan of Faulkner” or “I can clearly see the influence of writers like Tolstoy in his subject matter”. Just don’t copy them. Let their styles help develop yours, rather than try to mimic their styles. What is it you like about your favorite writers? Identify these things and then use them to develop your own writing.[/quote]
It’s funny you say this, because I can’t tell you how many people have read my stuff and go, “Ah, so you read a lot of Hunter S. Thompson huh?”
In all honesty, he is one of my favorites but the only book I ever read of his was “Hell’s Angels,” and that’s not fiction.
Point being- you’re going to mirror some people no matter what with your voice. While I don’t mind being compared to Bukowski or Carver or Thompson, I don’t want to sound just like them, so try experimenting as much as possible as well.
[quote]FightinIrish26 wrote:
[quote]DBCooper wrote:
And don’t be afraid to let your influences show. It’s okay if people read your stuff and say “well, I can tell he’s into Hemingway” or “he must be a big fan of Faulkner” or “I can clearly see the influence of writers like Tolstoy in his subject matter”. Just don’t copy them. Let their styles help develop yours, rather than try to mimic their styles. What is it you like about your favorite writers? Identify these things and then use them to develop your own writing.[/quote]
It’s funny you say this, because I can’t tell you how many people have read my stuff and go, “Ah, so you read a lot of Hunter S. Thompson huh?”
In all honesty, he is one of my favorites but the only book I ever read of his was “Hell’s Angels,” and that’s not fiction.
Point being- you’re going to mirror some people no matter what with your voice. While I don’t mind being compared to Bukowski or Carver or Thompson, I don’t want to sound just like them, so try experimenting as much as possible as well. [/quote]
Agreed. When it comes to the true heavyweights of literature, it’s going to be really hard to sound as good as them, but if you can identify what it is that makes them the heavyweights that they are, you can strive to have similar qualities in your own writing.
To me, unique words that Mailer uses to describe commonplace things carries a certain style with it that I enjoy. For instance, he refers to performing oral sex on a woman as worshipping at her chapel in An American Dream. I can’t remember where, but he refers to a relationship with a woman as an affiliation. If you’ve read him, you know what I mean.
With Ellis, I love the way he conveys a person’s deadpan response toward things within dialogue, which is especially evident in Bateman’s character in American Psycho. When Bateman walks into Paul Allen’s apt and says that he was on the verge of panic because he had a view of the park and the apt was clearly more expensive than his own perfectly conveys the backwards morals, disturbed and uber-materialistic nature of Bateman. Christian Bale played the part perfectly in the movie, in part because Ellis so beautifully portrays his psychosis throughout the book.
With Thompson, specifically in Fear and Loathing, I love the absurd nature of the characters and how their absurdity clarifies their bizarre senses of humor. The book is basically a comedy through and through, but it also Says Something; namely that there is a darkside to the whole “buy peace and understanding for $5 a hit” mentality that spawned the hippie generation. Rather than turn the book into something preachy and foreboding, which it intends to be, he uses humor to more interestingly Say Something.
When I write, I keep in mind these things. These influences come across in my own writing, but this is a good thing. If you’re trying to emulate some piece of shit writer like Sue Grafton, then you’re aiming too low. It’s kind of like what Mike Singletary always says: if you strive for perfection, knowing that you can’t reach it, you’ll settle for excellence when you fail to reach perfection. And excellence is good enough. For writing, hopefully you strive to be like the Big Ones, the ones who have come as close to perfection within their style that is possible. You’ll probably never be as good as Thompson or Hemingway or Conrad, but if you strive to be as good as them, and let them influence you, you can be excellent.
Find a reclusive, one-hit-wonder mentor who is willing to let you find your own words by starting with some of his.
Another thing about dialogue: It has to be used with purpose just like anything else written in fiction. Why are they talking? Is what is being said advancing the plot in some respect? Is it building the characters? If you can answer yes to the second or third question, then your reader will have a reason to care about what is being said. That goes a long, long way in enhancing your dialogue.
Remember, whatever the hell you’re writing about MUST resonate with the reader. They have to care about what happens, whether it’s where the plot is going, what will happen to the main character, etc. Otherwise, they won’t finish the book. So keep this in mind when approaching dialogue. Is it really necessary to have it at this particular junction, or can what is being said simply be explained without dialogue.
It’s very hard to write a book that is filled with dialogue without starting to sound redundant. Unless the book involves two main characters constantly interacting with each other, such as in Fear and Loathing, which is filled with dialogue. And for good reason. Duke and Dr. Gonzo spend virtually the whole book together so it’s mandatory that they have a lot of dialogue between them.
I don’t know much but I’d say many aspiring writers use too many adjectives and try to be too clever.
[quote]Nards wrote:
I don’t know much but I’d say many aspiring writers use too many adjectives and try to be too clever.[/quote]
I’ve always said that. Even some magazine writers do this… it’s a killer.
One of my professors always told us that when you’re done writing a couple thousand words, go back and chop 300 or so.
It seems like a bitch, but in reality there’s ALWAYS stuff that can be cut- like those useless adjevtives that just get too crazy.
Oh, and OP, read Dave Eggers. He is incredible with realistic dialogue and fitting it into the story.
He’s the best living writer. The guy does things with words that little make my head spin. If I became half the writer that guy is, I would be happy.
FightinIrish - what is your occupation? Journalist? Freelance writer? Fiction writer ? Non-fiction writer? Copy? I’m sure you do all of the above, but how do you earn a living from writing?
I’m a writer by both trade and hobby. Why would you want to join these ranks of insanity? Alas, if you cannot be deterred, welcome to the group, here’s your alcohol.
If you want to be a writer, above all else, you need to read a lot and you need to write a lot. If you have a seed of talent to nurture and grow with your hard work and dedication, these two things will turn your into a writer. Everything else–all the writing books and self-help manuals and classes–they’re fluff, good for entertainment and ideas, but they certainly will not turn you into a writer.
Read everything with the intent of figuring out HOW it works. Dig out a book’s soul.
New writers try to tell everything with metaphors and similes, adjectives and passive phrases. You need to use all four of these things sparingly. The imagination is most easily guided with short, punchy sentences. Drop in perfectly executed tidbits of info to guide the writer where you want they to be. Try to control their path and they will flounder. Passive phrases are the worst of the four. Editors and agents will toss your work aside if they get a face-full of passive phrases. Your work will seem slow and clunky. Kill passive voice.
Obey grammar laws until you KNOW that you know what you’re doing. There’s nothing worse than a writer who thinks they have the chops to purposely discard grammar rules. You need to know the functions of mechanics and hear the rhythm in the words before you can disregard good ol’ Strunk and White. Otherwise you risk looking like a hack who failed elementary school.
Write every day. If you want to put money in your bank account and food on your table by writing fiction, you are going to have to write even when you don’t feel like it, when you’re sick, when you’re grieving, when you’re given the opportunity to do something else, when you’re tired… you get the point.
Understand that publishing – big time publishing – is a ruthless game. I once lost a six-figure book deal because the editor who took on my book transferred to a different division and the new editor didn’t think my book would do well enough in the economic climate; one text message, and it was all gone. That’s how fast you can lose something. I know writers who have had publishing houses go bankrupt without them getting a dime of the money they’re owed. I know a writer right now who is owed a $50k check, and the publisher is doing everything they can to delay paying it until they file for bankruptcy, at which point the writer will get nothing. This isn’t a world for those who like a steady paycheck.
Pick a writer whom you adore – a good writer – and analyze his or her books until you can’t stand the sight of them. Get a highlighter and a pen and analyze the books until you’ve identified every quirk, every pattern, every consistency, every overlap. Write passages from those books so that you can feel how the words feel. Your brain, your fingers, will develop a recognition for your own pattern, the most common types of sentence structure you use. I’m sure you have, at times, had your fingers seemingly race ahead of your mind and say what you wanted to say before the words had formed in your head. When you write someone else’s words, you can feel their patterns, that’s the only way I know how to describe it. It’s like holding a painter’s brush while he paints. You might realize something your favorite writer does that you do not. You might discover that his way is better.
Don’t let other people read your book or story until you’ve gone over it at least once. Do not take amateurs words to highly, especially other wanna-bes in a classroom. You’ll get all kinds of nonsense, elitist phrasing, worthless criticism that ultimately does nothing more than make you doubt everything. When you’ve got a solid draft, give it to someone you know to be well read and give them a particular angle to focus on; the characters or the plot. If they try to look at the big picture, they’re only going to be able to give you generic advice or praise. Chip away at the small defects and the statue as a whole will look better.
I think, above all else, you need to make sure you have the skills to do this. I’m a firm believer that you need to have a foundation of talent upon which to place your hardwork; otherwise you’re toiling at futility. Someone with a donkey’s voice is never going to sound like Josh Groban or Celine Dion. Someone with a generic imagination, someone who can’t see the invisible things that make up life around you (the twitches of the face, the sensations of the wind, the inflections of voice), someone can’t hear the music in words, or someone with a little of all of these problems, cannot make themselves into a writer. You can only tone and train and expand upon the level of aptitude you inherently possess.