Would You Vote to Bomb Iran?

[quote]Cuso wrote:
So let me get this straight:

1). No hard evidence of nukes in Iran.
2). Iraq may have moved their chemical WMD program into Syria.
3). Syria has threatened to use said WMD in case of intervention from outside forces.
4). Lets go bomb Iran.

snafu[/quote]

The discussion regarding Iraq’s WMD being moved to Syria had nothing to do with Iran, except to refute the red herring that there were no WMD in Iraq, and thus the intelligence on Iran is suspect. In hindsight, it’s pretty obvious what happened to the WMD except to the two far ends of the political spectrum: (1) Bush-lackies who can’t believe he let such a stupid thing happen and (2) red-diaper doper babies who think Saddam was just a cuddly teddy bear that mean Americans attacked. In short, the intelligence was correct. What the idiots in charge (Bush) did was delay and fart around until it was too late.

Regarding Iran and it’s nulear efforts:

  1. They’ve said they want to build bombs to nuke Israel.
  2. They have test-fired missles whose purpose is to carry a large warhead.
  3. They are a country that flares (burns) natural gas (the cheapest source of electricity) because they have so much it gets in the way of oil production. They need nuclear power (the most expensive form of electricity) like they need sand.
  4. They are enriching uranium to a very high point. You do this to make bombs, not electricity.
  5. They built a facility to blow up a nuke
  6. They’ve been testing shaped charges for an implosion device

Several non-US groups have determined that Iran is persuing nukes. For example:

The IAEA

http://www.armscontrol.org/issuebriefs/The-IAEAs-Iran-Report_Assessment-and-Implications

[quote]thethirdruffian wrote:

[quote]Cuso wrote:
So let me get this straight:

1). No hard evidence of nukes in Iran.
2). Iraq may have moved their chemical WMD program into Syria.
3). Syria has threatened to use said WMD in case of intervention from outside forces.
4). Lets go bomb Iran.

snafu[/quote]

The discussion regarding Iraq’s WMD being moved to Syria had nothing to do with Iran, except to refute the red herring that there were no WMD in Iraq, and thus the intelligence on Iran is suspect. In hindsight, it’s pretty obvious what happened to the WMD except to the two far ends of the political spectrum: (1) Bush-lackies who can’t believe he let such a stupid thing happen and (2) red-diaper doper babies who think Saddam was just a cuddly teddy bear that mean Americans attacked. In short, the intelligence was correct. What the idiots in charge (Bush) did was delay and fart around until it was too late.

Regarding Iran and it’s nulear efforts:

  1. They’ve said they want to build bombs to nuke Israel.
  2. They have test-fired missles whose purpose is to carry a large warhead.
  3. They are a country that flares (burns) natural gas (the cheapest source of electricity) because they have so much it gets in the way of oil production. They need nuclear power (the most expensive form of electricity) like they need sand.
  4. They are enriching uranium to a very high point. You do this to make bombs, not electricity.
  5. They built a facility to blow up a nuke
  6. They’ve been testing shaped charges for an implosion device

Several non-US groups have determined that Iran is persuing nukes. For example:

The IAEA

http://www.armscontrol.org/issuebriefs/The-IAEAs-Iran-Report_Assessment-and-Implications

[/quote]

The trouble is that we have a gutless president who is afraid to act. He’d rather let maniacs get nukes instead of harm his election chances.

We need someone like Reagan. The rats all run when they hear a MAN’S step intstead of a bowing and scraping worm’s.

[quote]Headhunter wrote:

The trouble is that we have a gutless president who is afraid to act. He’d rather let maniacs get nukes instead of harm his election chances.
[/quote]

I think you make a mistake to assume he’s on “our” side at all, at least emotionally.

He clearly self-identified with the radicals of the arab/muslim world.

You can see it with his Fruedian slip of “my muslim faith.” Or, if you prefer his direct statement, he flat-out stated in his biography, if things became ugly, he would “stand with the muslim world.”

That’s a direct quote. I take him at his word.

[quote]thethirdruffian wrote:

  1. They’ve said they want to build bombs to nuke Israel.

[/quote]

No “they” did not.

The speech is still online.

Go read it.

There are days when I am utterly amazed that people will cling to any nonsense that is roughly 10 seconds of a search away from being debunked.

Oh well…

[quote]orion wrote:
There are days when I am utterly amazed that people will cling to any nonsense that is roughly 10 seconds of a search away from being debunked.

Oh well…[/quote]

…for example, where you repeatedly deny the obvious?
http://tnation.T-Nation.com/hub/DrSkeptix#myForums/thread/4471991/
(and pages following)

[quote]thethirdruffian wrote:

I think you make a mistake to assume he’s on “our” side at all, at least emotionally.

He clearly self-identified with the radicals of the arab/muslim world.

You can see it with his Fruedian slip of “my muslim faith.” Or, if you prefer his direct statement, he flat-out stated in his biography, if things became ugly, he would “stand with the muslim world.”

That’s a direct quote. I take him at his word.[/quote]

I agree. Obama reserves and has expressed a particular contempt for Christianity and the bible, 20 years of Reverend Wright’s rambling conspiratorial sermons not withstanding. However he holds a deep infatuation with the religion of peace(call to prayer most beautiful sound in the world!) His fluency in Arabic, a childhood spent banging his head on the ground and his mysterious sojourn in Pakistan at the height of the Soviet War all held him in good stead. Obama understands and relates to Islam in a way that no other president ever could or would.

[quote]DrSkeptix wrote:

[quote]orion wrote:
There are days when I am utterly amazed that people will cling to any nonsense that is roughly 10 seconds of a search away from being debunked.

Oh well…[/quote]

…for example, where you repeatedly deny the obvious?
http://tnation.T-Nation.com/hub/DrSkeptix#myForums/thread/4471991/
(and pages following)[/quote]

If that is Ahmadinejad is a holocaust denier thread, granted, however this man has been maliciously misinterpreted so often that you could make a killing if you bet that what was reported that he said was a complete fabrication every single time.

You might be wrong once or twice, but being 90% right is reason enough to have a default position.

Plus, to find that actually took me some time, the “wipe Israel off the map” nonsense takes, literally seconds.

The official translation is online.

[quote]orion wrote:

[quote]DrSkeptix wrote:

[quote]orion wrote:
There are days when I am utterly amazed that people will cling to any nonsense that is roughly 10 seconds of a search away from being debunked.

Oh well…[/quote]

…for example, where you repeatedly deny the obvious?
http://tnation.T-Nation.com/hub/DrSkeptix#myForums/thread/4471991/
(and pages following)[/quote]

If that is Ahmadinejad is a holocaust denier thread, granted, … [/quote]

FINALLY!

“Any man is liable to err, only a fool persists in error.” (CIcero, and others.)

Now get to work on the other 90% of your production.

[quote]thethirdruffian wrote:

[3. They are a country that flares (burns) natural gas (the cheapest source of electricity) because they have so much it gets in the way of oil production. They need nuclear power (the most expensive form of electricity) like they need sand.

The IAEA

http://www.armscontrol.org/issuebriefs/The-IAEAs-Iran-Report_Assessment-and-Implications
[/quote]

Point 3…Maybe they are burning their embargoed NG and saving their oil for when the embargo is lifted. It’s cheaper to produce electricty by burning NG than Oil.

The ACA essay is inconclusive, and refers to past Iranian activities, which have been mostly discontinued. What everyone worries about are the research elements which are still active.

Admit it guys…it would be fun to bomb these nuke sites, kill all the vermin.

I would chuckle with delight as the smoke and flames rose over their bomb making facilities. Send 'em all to Hell…

[quote]DrSkeptix wrote:

[quote]orion wrote:

[quote]DrSkeptix wrote:

[quote]orion wrote:
There are days when I am utterly amazed that people will cling to any nonsense that is roughly 10 seconds of a search away from being debunked.

Oh well…[/quote]

…for example, where you repeatedly deny the obvious?
http://tnation.T-Nation.com/hub/DrSkeptix#myForums/thread/4471991/
(and pages following)[/quote]

If that is Ahmadinejad is a holocaust denier thread, granted, … [/quote]

FINALLY!

“Any man is liable to err, only a fool persists in error.” (CIcero, and others.)

Now get to work on the other 90% of your production.
[/quote]

The 90% were referring to the things Ahmadinejad allegedly said even though he never did.

If the western media and especially the US media report anything “shocking” he allegedly said it is most often a blatant lie.

[quote]Chushin wrote:

[quote]orion wrote:

[quote]DrSkeptix wrote:

[quote]orion wrote:
There are days when I am utterly amazed that people will cling to any nonsense that is roughly 10 seconds of a search away from being debunked.

Oh well…[/quote]

…for example, where you repeatedly deny the obvious?
http://tnation.T-Nation.com/hub/DrSkeptix#myForums/thread/4471991/
(and pages following)[/quote]

If that is Ahmadinejad is a holocaust denier thread, granted…
[/quote]

Whoa!

It only took 14 months for you to admit that I / we were right and you were wrong!

Well done!
[/quote]

I know why you are so impressed, because for this board that was lightning fast!

Small miracle that it happened at all!

[quote]Cuso wrote:

[quote]thethirdruffian wrote:

[3. They are a country that flares (burns) natural gas (the cheapest source of electricity) because they have so much it gets in the way of oil production. They need nuclear power (the most expensive form of electricity) like they need sand.

The IAEA

http://www.armscontrol.org/issuebriefs/The-IAEAs-Iran-Report_Assessment-and-Implications
[/quote]

Point 3…Maybe they are burning their embargoed NG and saving their oil for when the embargo is lifted. It’s cheaper to produce electricty by burning NG than Oil.

The ACA essay is inconclusive, and refers to past Iranian activities, which have been mostly discontinued. What everyone worries about are the research elements which are still active.[/quote]

That doesn’t make any sense. Natural gas is used to generate electricity. They have so much natural gas that they burn it to get rid of it.

Instead of using something essentially free and which they have plenty of (the natgas) to generate electricity, they chose to persue nuclear power, which is very expensive, dangerous, and the fuel for which they have to import.

Makes to sense, unless the real purpose is weaponry.

[quote]Cuso wrote:

[quote]thethirdruffian wrote:

[3. They are a country that flares (burns) natural gas (the cheapest source of electricity) because they have so much it gets in the way of oil production. They need nuclear power (the most expensive form of electricity) like they need sand.

The IAEA

http://www.armscontrol.org/issuebriefs/The-IAEAs-Iran-Report_Assessment-and-Implications
[/quote]

Point 3…Maybe they are burning their embargoed NG and saving their oil for when the embargo is lifted. It’s cheaper to produce electricty by burning NG than Oil.

The ACA essay is inconclusive, and refers to past Iranian activities, which have been mostly discontinued. What everyone worries about are the research elements which are still active.[/quote]

PUTRAJAYA, Malaysia – Iranian President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad said Thursday the solution to the Middle East crisis is to destroy Israel. In a speech during an emergency meeting of Muslim leaders, Ahmadinejad also called for an immediate halt to fighting in Lebanon between Israel and the Iranian-backed militant group Hezbollah.

“Although the main solution is for the elimination of the Zionist regime, at this stage an immediate cease-fire must be implemented,” he said.

Ahmadinejad, who has drawn international condemnation with previous calls for Israel to be wiped off the map, said the Middle East would be better off “without the existence of the Zionist regime.”

[quote]thethirdruffian wrote:

[quote]Cuso wrote:

[quote]thethirdruffian wrote:

[3. They are a country that flares (burns) natural gas (the cheapest source of electricity) because they have so much it gets in the way of oil production. They need nuclear power (the most expensive form of electricity) like they need sand.

The IAEA

http://www.armscontrol.org/issuebriefs/The-IAEAs-Iran-Report_Assessment-and-Implications
[/quote]

Point 3…Maybe they are burning their embargoed NG and saving their oil for when the embargo is lifted. It’s cheaper to produce electricty by burning NG than Oil.

The ACA essay is inconclusive, and refers to past Iranian activities, which have been mostly discontinued. What everyone worries about are the research elements which are still active.[/quote]

PUTRAJAYA, Malaysia – Iranian President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad said Thursday the solution to the Middle East crisis is to destroy Israel. In a speech during an emergency meeting of Muslim leaders, Ahmadinejad also called for an immediate halt to fighting in Lebanon between Israel and the Iranian-backed militant group Hezbollah.

“Although the main solution is for the elimination of the Zionist regime, at this stage an immediate cease-fire must be implemented,” he said.

Ahmadinejad, who has drawn international condemnation with previous calls for Israel to be wiped off the map, said the Middle East would be better off “without the existence of the Zionist regime.”

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/08/03/AR2006080300629.html[/quote]

Read the speech, it is still online.

[quote]Chushin wrote:

[quote]orion wrote:

[quote]Chushin wrote:

[quote]orion wrote:

[quote]DrSkeptix wrote:

[quote]orion wrote:
There are days when I am utterly amazed that people will cling to any nonsense that is roughly 10 seconds of a search away from being debunked.

Oh well…[/quote]

…for example, where you repeatedly deny the obvious?
http://tnation.T-Nation.com/hub/DrSkeptix#myForums/thread/4471991/
(and pages following)[/quote]

If that is Ahmadinejad is a holocaust denier thread, granted…
[/quote]

Whoa!

It only took 14 months for you to admit that I / we were right and you were wrong!

Well done!
[/quote]

I know why you are so impressed, because for this board that was lightning fast!

Small miracle that it happened at all!

[/quote]
So, basically, your argument is “At least I’m better than the Nazis.”[/quote]

There is a lot that could be said about PWI, but we never built no concentration camp.

Or highways.

So there.

Ah well, then I will post the speech AGAIN:

I thank God that I have had the opportunity to participate in the event today ?.

We need to examine the true origins of the issue of Palestine: is it a fight between a group of Muslims and non-Jews? Is it a fight between Judaism and other religions? Is it the fight of one country with another country? Is it the fight of one country with the Arab world? Is it a fight over the land of Palestine? I guess the answer to all these questions is ?no.?

The establishment of the occupying regime of Qods [Jerusalem]was a major move by the world oppressor [ the United States] against the Islamic world. The situation has changed in this historical struggle. Sometimes the Muslims have won and moved forward and the world oppressor was forced to withdraw.

Unfortunately, the Islamic world has been withdrawing in the past 300 years. I do not want to examine the reasons for this, but only to review the history. The Islamic world lost its last defenses in the past 100 years and the world oppressor established the occupying regime. Therefore the struggle in Palestine today is the major front of the struggle of the Islamic world with the world oppressor and its fate will decide the destiny of the struggles of the past several hundred years.

The Palestinian nation represents the Islamic nation [Umma] against a system of oppression, and thank God, the Palestinian nation adopted Islamic behavior in an Islamic environment in their struggle and so we have witnessed their progress and success.

I need to thank you for choosing this valuable title for the conference.

Many who are disappointed in the struggle between the Islamic world and the infidels have tried to spread the blame. They say it is not possible to have a world without the United States and Zionism. But you know that this is a possible goal and slogan.
[b]
Let?s take a step back. We had a hostile regime in this country which was undemocratic, armed to the teeth and, with SAVAK, its security apparatus of SAVAK [the intelligence bureau of the Shah of Iran?s government] watched everyone. An environment of terror existed. When our dear Imam [Ayatollah Ruhollah Khomeini, the founder the Iranian revolution] said that the regime must be removed, many of those who claimed to be politically well-informed said it was not possible. All the corrupt governments were in support of the regime when Imam Khomeini started his movement. All the Western and Eastern countries supported the regime even after the massacre of September 7 [1978] and said the removal of the regime was not possible. But our people resisted and it is 27 years now that we have survived without a regime dependant on the United States. The tyranny of the East and the West over the world must should end, but weak people who can see only what lies in front of them cannot believe this.

Who could believe that one day we could witness the collapse of the Eastern Empire? But we have seen its fall during our lives and it collapsed in such a way that we have to refer to libraries because no trace of it is left. Imam [Khomeini] said Saddam must go and he said he would grow weaker than anyone could imagine. Now you see the man who spoke with such arrogance ten years ago that one would have thought he was immortal, is being tried in his own country in handcuffs and shackles by those who he believed supported him and with whose backing he committed his crimes.

Our dear Imam said that the occupying regime must be wiped off the map and this was a very wise statement. We cannot compromise over the issue of Palestine. Is it possible to create a new front in the heart of an old front. This would be a defeat and whoever accepts the legitimacy of this regime [Israel] has in fact, signed the defeat of the Islamic world. Our dear Imam targeted the heart of the world oppressor in his struggle, meaning the occupying regime. I have no doubt that the new wave that has started in Palestine, and we witness it in the Islamic world too, will eliminate this disgraceful stain from the Islamic world. But we must be aware of tricks.
[/b]
For over 50 years the world oppressor tried to give legitimacy to the occupying regime and it has taken measures in this direction to stabilize it. About 27 or 28 years ago they took a major step and unfortunately one of the leading countries made a mistake which we hope will correct it.[an apparent reference to the peace treaty between Egypt and Israel].

Recently they [the Israelis] tried a new trick. They want to show the evacuation from the Gaza strip, which was imposed on them by Palestinians, as a final victory for the Palestinians and end the issue of Palestine with the excuse of establishing a Palestinian government next to themselves. Today, they want to involve Palestinians with mischief and trick them into fighting with one another over political positions so that they would drop the issue of Palestine.

They want to convince some of the Islamic countries that, since they evacuated the Gaza strip with good intentions, the legitimacy of their corrupt regime should be recognized. I hope Palestinian groups and people are aware of this trick.

The issue of Palestine is not over at all. It will be over the day a Palestinian government, which belongs to the Palestinian people, comes to power; the day that all refugees return to their homes; a democratic government elected by the people comes to power. Of course those who have come from far away to plunder this land have no right to choose for this nation.

I hope the Palestinian people will remain alert and aware in the same way that they have continued their struggle in the past ten years.

If we get through this brief period successfully, the path of eliminating the occupying regime will be easy and down-hill.

I warn all leaders of the Islamic world that they should be aware of this trick. Anyone who recognizes this regime because of the pressure of the World oppressor, or because of naiveté or selfishness, will be eternally disgraced and will burn in the fury of the Islamic nations.

Those who are sitting in closed rooms cannot decide for the Islamic nation and cannot allow this historical enemy to exist in the heart of the Islamic world.

A few comments:

a) this is the speech in the form of the translation the NY Times used originally.

b) the “wiped off the map” thing is still in there, even though it should have been clear from the start that there is no reason whatsoever to believe that this expression even exists in Farsi.

c) the context makes it clear that the “occupying REGIME” should, more correctly translated “vanish from the pages of time/history” as the Iranian Sha regime and the Eastern Empire (the Sowjet Union) has.

As far as I know both Russians and Iranians are still alive and well and nobody was physically wiped off anything, neither a map nor anything else even though those regimes are gone.