Here’s an example of what I consider to be good music.
[quote]dday wrote:
The only music I truly can’t stand is newer rap, you know the guys who seem to have nothing better to say then, yea…uhhh…yea…uhhhh…bitches…huh…money. I like all other rap, Cube, Dre, Snoop, Eminem these guys have talent. [/quote]
your in kcmo. you should listen to your local underground rappers. they have talent. they just dont get a chance.
underground rap and coutry. yes i secretly like country
[quote]LarryDavid wrote:
jasmincar wrote:
LarryDavid wrote:
jasmincar wrote:
LarryDavid wrote:
jasmincar wrote:
DSmolken wrote:
Let me start off by saying I think it’s hilarious that you quoted me saying you wouldn’t be able to explain your interest in Zappa without calling someone stupid and proceeded to post this:
“(more like you don’t get it, it flies above you)”
See? I read you like a book.
ok first of all if you don’t get it that doesnt mean you are stupid, that means you don’t get it. You don’t get art, so what? That doesnt imply anything else.
And as for the comment “You just know if something is weak or not”, no you just know when you find something is weak. How is it that hard to get that your opinion is not the law of what is art and what isn’t?
I don’t get what you are saying but I’ll rephrase what I said: there is music that you find weak. Even if I listen 1000time to britney spears I will still hear the same thing. I understand what is going on but I dont find it thrilling. If you think listening 1000time to a -I IV V I- will make it special and that you will find it thrilling the 1000 time you are wrong.
So your idea of powerful music is something that is respected on an “intellectual” level.
no. but you can find great music when the people who likes quality stuff like it. First I listened to zappa.It was a musical revelation. Then I heard zappa liked varese, stravinski, penderecki and I searched that stuff. It was great too. Music is a big business and what happens in the media is bullshit.
Fine, then you should know that a hell of a lot of music critics who work with popular music seem to like the Beatles, the Rolling Stones, Eminem, and Kanye West.
I don’t care what the critic says. I mean who are these guys? I dont follow what they say in the paper. I am my own judge and I find these artist weak
Critics are just part of the industry of selling things.And critics didnt like zappa first album ‘‘freak out!’’. I dont care, it was a quality piece of work.
I don’t like to use critics as a scale of what is good music, but since you mentioned “intellectual”, why not. Here’s the wikipedia page for the Pazz & Jop End of the year list for best albums:
Look at who won two straight years in 04 and 05. Seems like intellectuals who have no doubt listened to far more music than you and continue to listen to far more music every week than you do appreciate this stuff. Maybe since their music just “flies above you”.
this stuff is a joke. I dont follow that
Your description of why you like Frank Zappa is fine by me. I don’t look for complex structure or anything else you mentioned in my music, and improvisational abilities don’t matter that much to me. Maybe that’s why I don’t like Frank Zappa? You have a different criteria for what makes good music, and there’s nothing wrong with it. But using that criteria to call other music not art, just because you don’t appreciate that art, is incredibly shortsighted. I haven’t complained about anyone liking certain artists, just defended a few.
hummmm. If you don’t like complex art then maybe you just don’t like art. It is like if you like better a child drawing instead of a picasso painting. But it is the same thing, it only depends of the criteria. incredibly shortsighted.
I prefer music that has immediate AND long term appeal.
So you mean something that you can enjoy now and that you could find something else after lots of listen? Eminem, kanye west and whoever you named don’t fit in that category
So do “the masses”. If they don’t want to sit and listen to something that is so complex they have to get out of their comfort zone that’s fine. That’s their right.
sure. It is also your right to be uncultivated, uneducated, and to sit on your ass all and to not train.
See unlike you, I don’t assume the masses are stupid. And music that touches the masses and moves them is indeed powerful. Any artist that can get by this barrier to make a point or message, or express themselves or make clever music makes POWERFUL MUSIC. That’s how I choose to define it, that seems to be how the “intellectuals” in the link I provided seem to define it. It’s HARD to make music that is both immediately appealing and worth repeated listening
The mass take what you give them. They don’t choose. Do you really think that everyone listen the thousands of stuff then unanimely choose this and that song? no. the industry choose one image, one sound and market it nationwide. People take it and every year they give themselves trophy. Like I said if you don’t get it it doesnt make you stupid. It only means that you dont get it.
and I am in no way linked with those cultural critics. I dont read them, I dont follow them. If I listen to what I listen now it is because of hours of searching the internet and curiosity. The quality stuff stand out by itself.
When an artist gets popular I don’t assume he/she got there by capitalizing on dumb people, I try to figure out what the work has that appeals to other people. Just try to figure out what the successful people are doing and why they’re good, it’s a good attitude to have in life.
Pop music is marketed as if it was already popular. then everyone follows it because everyone allegedly did.I can give you any piece of crap with a good image, push it into all store and you will assume that it’s there because it is good. Then you’ll buy it. that’s how it works
This isn’t me not leaving my comfort zone, I do that whenever there is an artist I find that is really popular that I haven’t heard much of.
lol!! see above.
Staying in one’s comfort zone is bristling at the world when they don’t appreciate the same music as oneself. I didn’t like the Beatles or Kanye West initially. They seemed too simple at first, but then I thought harder. Maybe you should get out of your comfort zone and listen to those guys again, it’ll be better in the long term. The long term. Got it?
that’s bullshit. You want to make me believe that you liked really sophisticated stuff and that finally you choosed kanye over that. hahahaha. So if I focus really hard on something simple on the radio like everyone do finally it will reveal it’s hidden value? HAHAHAHA
Are you like this with film and TV? What kind of movies do you like? I ask this for a reason.
Im not very into movie and tv. But I liked Koyaanisqatsi by Philip Glass alot because it is like a movie and a musical composition in one.
And you mentioned Frank Zappa and described his musical abilities but failed to get into his lyrics or the conceptual side of his work. I’m not a fan, but a lot of his admirers seems to mentione this stuff with equal fervor, and yet you didn’t mention it all. If I were like you and didn’t respect that different people like different music for different reasons, I’d be tempted to say you didn’t get him yourself and had no right to appreciate him, and that you didn’t know enough about him to speak on his work. [/quote]
FZ himself said he doesnt have an interest in lyrics. His lyrics are funny and a great satire but it’s not music. I like music. When you’ll get a real thrill from music then you’ll understand that it is all that matters.And you’ll understand what is the difference between kanye and stravinski. But I dont think it will ever happen in your life.
I dont like art because of the intellectual analysis over it. You really don’t know what it’s like to get a powerful thrill from art? That is too bad for you.
and also how to fuck do I do to insert yellow text in someone else post?
[quote]jasmincar wrote:
FZ himself said he doesnt have an interest in lyrics. His lyrics are funny and a great satire but it’s not music. I like music. When you’ll get a real thrill from music then you’ll understand that it is all that matters.And you’ll understand what is the difference between kanye and stravinski. But I dont think it will ever happen in your life.
I dont like art because of the intellectual analysis over it. You really don’t know what it’s like to get a powerful thrill from art? That is too bad for you.
[/quote]
Care to address the other points I made?
Now it’s not my intelligence, it just that I can’t “get a real thrill from music”. That and you said you don’t care about lyrics, thereby eliminating a bunch of artists whose strength lie in lyrics from your definition of art. I wonder if the other guys who like to impose their criteria on other people would agree with that, considering that might be what they value. You’re so dismissive of so many elements of music that others appreciate and yet I’m the one who need to get out of my comfort zone. So when you judge artists, including the ones I named you ignore lyrics completely?
You mentioned ‘intellectual’ first. I merely pointed out that people who look into music in an intellectual manner [and much more ‘seriously’ than you could ever aspire to] seem to favour my view over yours, and that you probably shouldn’t use intelligence as an argument as to why I don’t like the same music as you. Don’t backtrack now, you brought up that word ‘intellectual’, and now that it doesn’t help you you don’t do that? Please.
As for the last part of your post, I won’t dignify it with a response.
Please either make a better effort at a rebuttal, or don’t bump this thread again. If this thread reaches the second page of the forum no one will see what happened to you.
[quote]jasmincar wrote:
and also how to fuck do I do to insert yellow text in someone else post? [/quote]
Don’t bother, those were just smart ass comments anyway.
Simple, you can’t prove you get my favourite music, and I would never try to do the same for yours. You’re not winning this, and the air of superiority your empty posts come with don’t help.
[quote]LarryDavid wrote:
jasmincar wrote:
and also how to fuck do I do to insert yellow text in someone else post?
Don’t bother, those were just smart ass comments anyway.
Simple, you can’t prove you get my favourite music, and I would never try to do the same for yours. You’re not winning this, and the air of superiority your empty posts come with don’t help.[/quote]
instead of pointing out what is empty in those post you just dismiss them. I guess the argumentation is over. Think about that
[quote]LarryDavid wrote:
jasmincar wrote:
Care to address the other points I made?
Now it’s not my intelligence, it just that I can’t “get a real thrill from music”. That and you said you don’t care about lyrics, thereby eliminating a bunch of artists whose strength lie in lyrics from your definition of art. I wonder if the other guys who like to impose their criteria on other people would agree with that, considering that might be what they value. You’re so dismissive of so many elements of music that others appreciate and yet I’m the one who need to get out of my comfort zone. So when you judge artists, including the ones I named you ignore lyrics completely?
You mentioned ‘intellectual’ first. I merely pointed out that people who look into music in an intellectual manner [and much more ‘seriously’ than you could ever aspire to] seem to favour my view over yours, and that you probably shouldn’t use intelligence as an argument as to why I don’t like the same music as you. Don’t backtrack now, you brought up that word ‘intellectual’, and now that it doesn’t help you you don’t do that? Please.
As for the last part of your post, I won’t dignify it with a response.
Please either make a better effort at a rebuttal, or don’t bump this thread again. If this thread reaches the second page of the forum no one will see what happened to you.[/quote]
I did address the other point it is just that they are in grey. ‘‘Now it’s not my intelligence’’ where did I said that you lacked intelligence for not getting it? Yeah I find pretty dumb to listen to pop music as there is so much stuff more uplifting but in fact it doesnt say anything about your intelligence.
Music is the organisation of sound. Lyrics in themselves are not music.If they are said in a musical manner it can become music. I like music. yeah when I judge artist I ignore lyrics. I dont care about them. I like music. Music is the organisation of sound.It gives thrill Do I need to say it another time?
When I am talking about intellectual I meant that it’s in your head.There is the thrill. there is no criteria or whatever for an musical idea to express itself. composer have that thing that pop out independently of criteria and they write it with little dots on paper. It is intellectual in that way.
I dont give a shit about the ‘‘expert’’ you are talking about that supposedly view stuff as intellectually and are of your opinion.
Now you don’t know what to address at my other points so you won’t ‘‘dignify’’ them with a response?lol. And you want me to stop because your point are clearly better? lol again
Hollywood Undead. They’re from “the streets”.
You’re right I missed some quotes. Sorry about that.
[quote]jasmincar wrote:
ok first of all if you don’t get it that doesnt mean you are stupid, that means you don’t get it. You don’t get art, so what? That doesnt imply anything else.
[/quote]
No, you shouldn’t make the assumption that I don’t get your music when I just don’t like it.
[quote]jasmincar wrote:
I don’t get what you are saying but I’ll rephrase what I said: there is music that you find weak. Even if I listen 1000time to britney spears I will still hear the same thing. I understand what is going on but I dont find it thrilling. If you think listening 1000time to a -I IV V I- will make it special and that you will find it thrilling the 1000 time you are wrong.
[/quote]
But what exactly makes your opinion on music better than mine? That you could just flat out say I’m wrong?
[quote]jasmincar wrote:
no. but you can find great music when the people who likes quality stuff like it. First I listened to zappa.It was a musical revelation. Then I heard zappa liked varese, stravinski, penderecki and I searched that stuff. It was great too.
[/quote]
But supposedly that’s what the critics are, people who like good quality music. But since they don’t agree with you they don’t like good music, and therefore they are illegitemate, right? What makes you someone who likes great music? You have nothing to show you are smarter than these people. When I linked to that poll and referred to critics, I even said I don’t like doing this, but since you invited it.
[quote]jasmincar wrote:
I don’t care what the critic says. I mean who are these guys? I dont follow what they say in the paper. I am my own judge and I find these artist weak
Critics are just part of the industry of selling things.And critics didnt like zappa first album ‘‘freak out!’’. I dont care, it was a quality piece of work.
this stuff is a joke. I dont follow that
[/quote]
Ignoring that part about them being in the industry selling things, the rest of what you said is fine. But then why should YOU be the arbiter of what passes as art? What do you have that they don’t? This is really helping my argument that you have no better right to decide whats art and what’s not than someone else.
[quote]jasmincar wrote:
hummmm. If you don’t like complex art then maybe you just don’t like art. It is like if you like better a child drawing instead of a picasso painting. But it is the same thing, it only depends of the criteria. incredibly shortsighted.
[/quote]
Or maybe art that’s not complex structurally or in a tanglible way may be complex conceptually? Not all art is like a picasso painting. A lot of Pop Art comes to mind. Oh wait I forgot, YOU decide what’s art not anyone else. You’re damn right it depends on the criteria of the person experiencing the art. Nothing shortsighted about that.
[quote]jasmincar wrote:
So you mean something that you can enjoy now and that you could find something else after lots of listen? Eminem, kanye west and whoever you named don’t fit in that category
[/quote]
Now you get to tell me what I can’t enjoy after a bunch of listens? I know myself well, I can definitely say that I enjoy those two artists work after a lot of listens.
[quote]jasmincar wrote:
The mass take what you give them. They don’t choose. Do you really think that everyone listen the thousands of stuff then unanimely choose this and that song? no. the industry choose one image, one sound and market it nationwide. People take it and every year they give themselves trophy. Like I said if you don’t get it it doesnt make you stupid. It only means that you dont get it.
and I am in no way linked with those cultural critics. I dont read them, I dont follow them. If I listen to what I listen now it is because of hours of searching the internet and curiosity. The quality stuff stand out by itself.
Pop music is marketed as if it was already popular. then everyone follows it because everyone allegedly did.I can give you any piece of crap with a good image, push it into all store and you will assume that it’s there because it is good. Then you’ll buy it. that’s how it works
[/quote]
No the music industry cannot force an artist too sustained fame like you seem to think. Marketing is not nearly as powerful as you say it is. You really think that if people heard something and didn’t like it they’d still pay for it when the album came out. And go and see the act live? Especially now when you can hear artists stuff for free before buying. And if all these people really needed was exposure to other artists, the past decade has done just that. The internet has opened the doors for any artist to get big. But have you seen the artists that do get big without traditional media help? Most of them are rappers or artists that fit into that pop mold you hate so much.
[quote]jasmincar wrote:
that’s bullshit. You want to make me believe that you liked really sophisticated stuff and that finally you choosed kanye over that. hahahaha. So if I focus really hard on something simple on the radio like everyone do finally it will reveal it’s hidden value? HAHAHAHA
[/quote]
See, you say this, but then I have to listen real hard to the stuff you recommend. See, you really aren’t in the same group as those cultural critics. They have readers to answer to, you are clearly in your first real argument over this stuff.
I listen to Hip hop, country, r&b, classical music, 70’s, 80’s. Pretty much anything. Always have an open mind to music…no matter what genre. But I mostly listen to the first three listed. =P
[quote]jasmincar wrote:
I did address the other point it is just that they are in grey. ‘‘Now it’s not my intelligence’’ where did I said that you lacked intelligence for not getting it? Yeah I find pretty dumb to listen to pop music as there is so much stuff more uplifting but in fact it doesnt say anything about your intelligence.
[/quote]
For fuck’s sake you just said it’s “pretty dumb” to listen to pop music. Just now ^. This is why it gets frustrating and I skimmed over the last post you made and missed some points.
[quote]jasmincar wrote:
Music is the organisation of sound. Lyrics in themselves are not music.If they are said in a musical manner it can become music. I like music. yeah when I judge artist I ignore lyrics. I dont care about them. I like music. Music is the organisation of sound.It gives thrill Do I need to say it another time?
[/quote]
Again, you dismiss lyrics as a whole as not being a part of music. If I were like you and liked to impose my ideas of what matter on others, I’d use that and say you had no right to talk about pop music. But I won’t, and you shouldn’t question my taste either.
[quote]jasmincar wrote:
When I am talking about intellectual I meant that it’s in your head.There is the thrill. there is no criteria or whatever for an musical idea to express itself. composer have that thing that pop out independently of criteria and they write it with little dots on paper. It is intellectual in that way.
I dont give a shit about the ‘‘expert’’ you are talking about that supposedly view stuff as intellectually and are of your opinion.
[/quote]
…so it’s not intellectual. It’s just in your head, something you feel. How is that intellectual again? See definition one below:
As for the critics I get it, if they view things similarly to ME instead of YOU they aren’t intellectual. I only brought them up since you mentioned ‘intellectual’. I didn’t know you didn’t know what the word meant. for that I apologize sincerely :).
[quote]jasmincar wrote:
Now you don’t know what to address at my other points so you won’t ‘‘dignify’’ them with a response?lol. And you want me to stop because your point are clearly better? lol again[/quote]
No, it’s just your points are so full of hypocrisy and bad English it’s hard to read. All of your points boil to to:
a)You think your views are better than anyone else’s no matter what, and
b)You don’t know what intellectual means and still use it to make arguments
But I’m nice so I ended up replying anyway.
LarryDavid wrote:
You’re right I missed some quotes. Sorry about that.
jasmincar wrote:
ok first of all if you don’t get it that doesnt mean you are stupid, that means you don’t get it. You don’t get art, so what? That doesnt imply anything else.
No, you shouldn’t make the assumption that I don’t get your music when I just don’t like it.
If you don’t like it entirely that means you don’t get it. If you don’t like this guy and you like this guy in particuliar that means you get it. But if you don’t like serious music as a whole that means you don’t get it.
jasmincar wrote:
I don’t get what you are saying but I’ll rephrase what I said: there is music that you find weak. Even if I listen 1000time to britney spears I will still hear the same thing. I understand what is going on but I dont find it thrilling. If you think listening 1000time to a -I IV V I- will make it special and that you will find it thrilling the 1000 time you are wrong.
But what exactly makes your opinion on music better than mine? That you could just flat out say I’m wrong?
You have to read what you said before so you can see how you are wrong
jasmincar wrote:
no. but you can find great music when the people who likes quality stuff like it. First I listened to zappa.It was a musical revelation. Then I heard zappa liked varese, stravinski, penderecki and I searched that stuff. It was great too.
But supposedly that’s what the critics are, people who like good quality music. But since they don’t agree with you they don’t like good music, and therefore they are illegitemate, right? What makes you someone who likes great music? You have nothing to show you are smarter than these people. When I linked to that poll and referred to critics, I even said I don’t like doing this, but since you invited it.
look I don’t follow any critics. I am sure they know alot of music but all those awards show are bullshit. The goal of the record company is to get every year a big motherfucker hit album that they can sell. So there is the award show who says that this album is the best and that you have to buy it. They hope also that you will buy other stuff on the side.
again you are playing on the ‘I think I am smarter’’ and all that stuff. Why dont you stay on what I write?
jasmincar wrote:
I don’t care what the critic says. I mean who are these guys? I dont follow what they say in the paper. I am my own judge and I find these artist weak
Critics are just part of the industry of selling things.And critics didnt like zappa first album ‘‘freak out!’’. I dont care, it was a quality piece of work.
this stuff is a joke. I dont follow that
Ignoring that part about them being in the industry selling things, the rest of what you said is fine. But then why should YOU be the arbiter of what passes as art? What do you have that they don’t? This is really helping my argument that you have no better right to decide whats art and what’s not than someone else.
pop music is clearly a product made to sell. It is not art. It is a product. musical entertainment.If you don’t see that you are really blind. I don’t like every kind of art but I recognize it as art.
jasmincar wrote:
hummmm. If you don’t like complex art then maybe you just don’t like art. It is like if you like better a child drawing instead of a picasso painting. But it is the same thing, it only depends of the criteria. incredibly shortsighted.
Or maybe art that’s not complex structurally or in a tanglible way may be complex conceptually? Not all art is like a picasso painting. A lot of Pop Art comes to mind. Oh wait I forgot, YOU decide what’s art not anyone else. You’re damn right it depends on the criteria of the person experiencing the art. Nothing shortsighted about that.
it is still complex. It is organised in a way to make you experience a thrill. If the thrill is good that means the art is good.
jasmincar wrote:
So you mean something that you can enjoy now and that you could find something else after lots of listen? Eminem, kanye west and whoever you named don’t fit in that category
Now you get to tell me what I can’t enjoy after a bunch of listens? I know myself well, I can definitely say that I enjoy those two artists work after a lot of listens.
Yeah you enjoy it the same way as you enjoyed it the first time. The same crappy thrill.
jasmincar wrote:
The mass take what you give them. They don’t choose. Do you really think that everyone listen the thousands of stuff then unanimely choose this and that song? no. the industry choose one image, one sound and market it nationwide. People take it and every year they give themselves trophy. Like I said if you don’t get it it doesnt make you stupid. It only means that you dont get it.
and I am in no way linked with those cultural critics. I dont read them, I dont follow them. If I listen to what I listen now it is because of hours of searching the internet and curiosity. The quality stuff stand out by itself.
Pop music is marketed as if it was already popular. then everyone follows it because everyone allegedly did.I can give you any piece of crap with a good image, push it into all store and you will assume that it’s there because it is good. Then you’ll buy it. that’s how it works
No the music industry cannot force an artist too sustained fame like you seem to think.
Sometime they fail. maybe the image doesnt fit enought, the music doesnt sound like something people already heard, not cool enough…It is still marketed the same way.
Marketing is not nearly as powerful as you say it is. You really think that if people heard something and didn’t like it they’d still pay for it when the album came out. And go and see the act live? Especially now when you can hear artists stuff for free before buying.
People don’t do much research. They take what they are given in a very tiny range of choice. how come do you name ‘‘artist’’ such as eminem, kanye west, and those people that are visible now? You don’t know music from the 50’s 60’s or 70’s or of another century. You never searched. oh yeah those guys are really good and the next popular one will be even better we’ll forget about these guys
And if all these people really needed was exposure to other artists, the past decade has done just that. The internet has opened the doors for any artist to get big. But have you seen the artists that do get big without traditional media help? Most of them are rappers or artists that fit into that pop mold you hate so much.
that support my point. People take what they are given and dont do any research. Most people don’t even get art in the musical form
jasmincar wrote:
that’s bullshit. You want to make me believe that you liked really sophisticated stuff and that finally you choosed kanye over that. hahahaha. So if I focus really hard on something simple on the radio like everyone do finally it will reveal it’s hidden value? HAHAHAHA
See, you say this, but then I have to listen real hard to the stuff you recommend. See, you really aren’t in the same group as those cultural critics. They have readers to answer to, you are clearly in your first real argument over this stuff.
You said that you like these guys better than the hard stuff now you say you have to listen to the hard stuff? You say I am in my first real argument over this stuff, I say that you don’t know anything about music but you like to argue
[quote]LarryDavid wrote:
jasmincar wrote:
I did address the other point it is just that they are in grey. ‘‘Now it’s not my intelligence’’ where did I said that you lacked intelligence for not getting it? Yeah I find pretty dumb to listen to pop music as there is so much stuff more uplifting but in fact it doesnt say anything about your intelligence.
For fuck’s sake you just said it’s “pretty dumb” to listen to pop music. Just now ^. This is why it gets frustrating and I skimmed over the last post you made and missed some points.
jasmincar wrote:
Music is the organisation of sound. Lyrics in themselves are not music.If they are said in a musical manner it can become music. I like music. yeah when I judge artist I ignore lyrics. I dont care about them. I like music. Music is the organisation of sound.It gives thrill Do I need to say it another time?
Again, you dismiss lyrics as a whole as not being a part of music. If I were like you and liked to impose my ideas of what matter on others, I’d use that and say you had no right to talk about pop music. But I won’t, and you shouldn’t question my taste either.
music is organised sound. composing is the act of organising sounds. If you don’t think it is that you are really clueless. It is not my idea it is . What is music for you? Something that has a drum and a guitar and lyrics that rhyme? It is not a fucking question of taste it is a fact.
jasmincar wrote:
When I am talking about intellectual I meant that it’s in your head.There is the thrill. there is no criteria or whatever for an musical idea to express itself. composer have that thing that pop out independently of criteria and they write it with little dots on paper. It is intellectual in that way.
I dont give a shit about the ‘‘expert’’ you are talking about that supposedly view stuff as intellectually and are of your opinion.
…so it’s not intellectual. It’s just in your head, something you feel. How is that intellectual again? See definition one below:
inÃ?·telÃ?·lecÃ?·tuÃ?·al [Ã?¬nt’l Ã?©kchoo Ã??l]
adjective
- relating to thought process: relating to or involving the mental processes of abstract thinking and reasoning rather than the emotions
- intelligent and knowledgeable: having a highly developed ability to think, reason, and understand, especially in combination with wide knowledge
- for intelligent people: intended for, appealing to, or done by intelligent people
intellectual pursuits
however you call the process of creating music, it is still what it is and you clearly don’t know how it is made.
As for the critics I get it, if they view things similarly to ME instead of YOU they aren’t intellectual. I only brought them up since you mentioned ‘intellectual’. I didn’t know you didn’t know what the word meant. for that I apologize sincerely :).
what the fuck are you talking about. You bring stuff that I didnt said, you assume thing I don’t think then you talk about the critics even if I never read any…trying to win the argumentation without a point…
jasmincar wrote:
Now you don’t know what to address at my other points so you won’t ‘‘dignify’’ them with a response?lol. And you want me to stop because your point are clearly better? lol again
No, it’s just your points are so full of hypocrisy and bad English it’s hard to read. All of your points boil to to:
a)You think your views are better than anyone else’s no matter what, and
b)You don’t know what intellectual means and still use it to make arguments
But I’m nice so I ended up replying anyway.
a) the same could be said of you even if you don’t have any musical education and culture
b) I was trying to bring a concept of creating that I qualified of intellectual and now you arenitpicking over the words without even trying to refute the whole concept. You are not trying to prove any point you are only trying to win an argumentation.
Totally skipping all the posts. Country is awesome, that is, OLD COUNTRY. Not this pop country bullshit that sucks.
REAL COUNTRY: Johnny Cash, Hank Williams Sr., Patsy Cline, Lefty Frizzell, Johnny Horton, Bob Willis, Buck Owens, Marty Robbins, Ray Price, Porter Wagoner.
Seriously, so many people love pop rock (or any rock) and pop country, but can’t appreciate the music of these folks listed above, and others like Elvis, Jerry Lee, Wanda Jackson, Bill Haley & The Comets, Buddy Holly, Carl Perkins, etc.
[quote]PB Andy wrote:
Totally skipping all the posts. Country is awesome, that is, OLD COUNTRY. Not this pop country bullshit that sucks.
REAL COUNTRY: Johnny Cash, Hank Williams Sr., Patsy Cline, Lefty Frizzell, Johnny Horton, Bob Willis, Buck Owens, Marty Robbins, Ray Price, Porter Wagoner.
Seriously, so many people love pop rock (or any rock) and pop country, but can’t appreciate the music of these folks listed above, and others like Elvis, Jerry Lee, Wanda Jackson, Bill Haley & The Comets, Buddy Holly, Carl Perkins, etc.[/quote]
x2
Also love some good rock a billy and psych-billy, especially live.
off topic: am I the only one who finds it annoying when people quote pages of shit, I mean who can read all that shit.
For fucks sake use the quotes properly or just respond entirely outside the quotes.
[quote]jasmincar wrote:
If you don’t like it entirely that means you don’t get it. If you don’t like this guy and you like this guy in particuliar that means you get it. But if you don’t like serious music as a whole that means you don’t get it.
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I like serious music as a whole, you just don’t like the same serious music as I do, or just don’t appreciate it the same way. My problem is you deciding what counts as serious music. you don’t. You only decide what you like and appreciate. <–You’re only response to this has been to tell me that I have to learn to appreciate it. I turned that around and said maybe you had to learn to appreciate my music, and you laughed.
And again using your reasoning that you have to get this serious music the right way to like it you’re not ready to appreciate Frank. Based on your understanding of the English language you aren’t ready to fully understand your Frank Zappa like his other fans seem to. You dismissed his lyrics and concept saying he doesn’t care about them and you don’t either, but according to his OTHER ADMIRERS (never mind the critics) who show similar tastes to yourself and should be considered able to ‘get art’ by yourself they are one of his strong suits. So they themselves would tell you you didn’t get it, and I’m sure many of these people experience a similar ‘thrill’ that you don’t when listening to the musical aspects of his work alone.
[quote]jasmincar wrote:
no. but you can find great music when the people who likes quality stuff like it.
look I don’t follow any critics. I am sure they know alot of music but all those awards show are bullshit. The goal of the record company is to get every year a big motherfucker hit album that they can sell. So there is the award show who says that this album is the best and that you have to buy it. They hope also that you will buy other stuff on the side.
again you are playing on the ‘I think I am smarter’’ and all that stuff. Why dont you stay on what I write?
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That’s why I specifically picked something done by the critics that has no ties to the award shows or promotion of albums. The Pazz & Jop poll is not an award show, it’s a poll of critics that most music industry people don’t really give a shit about. Look at the albums that won those polls, not all of them were big sellers anyway.
Again, you keep mentioning things about some people being better suited to appreciating this stuff, and then turning away from critics who appreciate music for a living. The only reason you do this is because they don’t like the same music as you. I did not like bringing the critics into the argument, you keep attacking me for doing this even though you were the one espousing this belief that some people are more qualified listeners than others and you appreciate something on an ‘intellectual’ level, which as it turns out you didn’t understand.
Maybe by your own standards, they GET pop music in way you haven’t LEARNED to? Just using your own words here.
[quote]jasmincar wrote:
pop music is clearly a product made to sell. It is not art. It is a product. musical entertainment.If you don’t see that you are really blind. I don’t like every kind of art but I recognize it as art.
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No, this is that close-mindedness I keep talking about. Who says you can’t sell art? Just tell me why you can’t sell something that someone has put work into as a piece of art. Art can definitely be a product and you do not have the right to tell artists that their work is not art because they can sell their work easily.
[quote]jasmincar wrote:
hummmm. If you don’t like complex art then maybe you just don’t like art. It is like if you like better a child drawing instead of a picasso painting. But it is the same thing, it only depends of the criteria. incredibly shortsighted.
Or maybe art that’s not complex structurally or in a tanglible way may be complex conceptually? Not all art is like a picasso painting. A lot of Pop Art comes to mind. Oh wait I forgot, YOU decide what’s art not anyone else. You’re damn right it depends on the criteria of the person experiencing the art. Nothing shortsighted about that.
it is still complex. It is organised in a way to make you experience a thrill. If the thrill is good that means the art is good.
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Great, then if something is conceptually complex then maybe you should realize that those lyrics you so conveniently ignore may add concept to the music you find so simple. And given your understanding of the word ‘intellectual’ I would question your ability to understand these lyrics in their entirety even if you tried. This isn’t to be rude, it’s just that.
[quote]jasmincar wrote:
Yeah you enjoy it the same way as you enjoyed it the first time. The same crappy thrill.
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No I’ll enjoy a good pop song that packs a message and is cleverly made on repeated listens. But again you said you don’t like lyrics, and your understanding of the Enlgish language seems to be the source of this disregard for the words. Sorry but a lot of the new thrills that come on those songs are from the lyrics, since many use music as a means of personal expression, just like a lot of other art.
[quote]jasmincar wrote:
People don’t do much research. They take what they are given in a very tiny range of choice. how come do you name ‘‘artist’’ such as eminem, kanye west, and those people that are visible now? You don’t know music from the 50’s 60’s or 70’s or of another century. You never searched. oh yeah those guys are really good and the next popular one will be even better we’ll forget about these guys
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No people do a lot of research, it’s just their tastes lead them to appreciate artists that express thing that they are familiar with. Again, you do not have a complete grasp of the English language, and seeming don’t like lyrics anyway.
I won’t go so far as to say you don’t get pop music since you said you listen for the music alone. But I will say you don’t get why other people get that music and have no right to calim they don’t get art because of that. The lyrics are a part of the art, you choose not to appreciate the dynamics of lyrics and music together. Fine, but if others do and choose their music accordingly, don’t claim they don’t get art. They just like art that your don’t like. That’s been my point entirely.
[quote]jasmincar wrote:
that’s bullshit. You want to make me believe that you liked really sophisticated stuff and that finally you choosed kanye over that. hahahaha. So if I focus really hard on something simple on the radio like everyone do finally it will reveal it’s hidden value? HAHAHAHA
See, you say this, but then I have to listen real hard to the stuff you recommend. See, you really aren’t in the same group as those cultural critics. They have readers to answer to, you are clearly in your first real argument over this stuff.
You said that you like these guys better than the hard stuff now you say you have to listen to the hard stuff? You say I am in my first real argument over this stuff, I say that you don’t know anything about music but you like to argue
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The line where I said “but then I have to listen to the real hard stuff you recommend”, was sarcasm. VERY SIMPLE SARCASM. Again, there seems to be a language barrier here between this and your misuse of the word intellectual (damn near using that word for the opposite of what it meant). This is why you so handily don’t want to accept that lyrics to add an element to pop music, and use that to denounce it’s status as art. But then why judge other people who choose to appreciate the music for it’s lyrics AS WELL. You have trouble with English, so you listen to music by English artists for the music alone. No one told you that you didn’t appreciate art, all I said was that you had no right to tell other people they didn’t.
And Frank Zappa seems to be a very sarcastic, ironic person too. There’s a good chanced you have ignored a large part of what his music was about, whether he put an effort into it or not. But I never told you you didn’t get it, other than saying by the stndards you place on others you would be considered someone who didn’t get it. I personally think it’s fine that you like him without understanding his lyrics.
The fact that you couldn’t understand a simple sarcastic comment should open your eyes to what you may be missing in pop music. And if you aren’t taking that into account, you shouldn’t tell people they are not qualified to appreciate art. That idea could easily be turned around on you since you have trouble with the English language and still judge music that is heavily dependent on the words. Maybe you’re not qualified to appreciate the art that is pop music?
Dude wtf is that Goatbomb shit?
[quote]jasmincar wrote:
LarryDavid wrote:
jasmincar wrote:
I did address the other point it is just that they are in grey. ‘‘Now it’s not my intelligence’’ where did I said that you lacked intelligence for not getting it? Yeah I find pretty dumb to listen to pop music as there is so much stuff more uplifting but in fact it doesnt say anything about your intelligence.
For fuck’s sake you just said it’s “pretty dumb” to listen to pop music. Just now ^. This is why it gets frustrating and I skimmed over the last post you made and missed some points.
[/quote]
You ‘forgot’ too adress this point inside the quotes. Get back to me on this.
[quote]jasmincar wrote:
Music is the organisation of sound. Lyrics in themselves are not music.If they are said in a musical manner it can become music. I like music. yeah when I judge artist I ignore lyrics. I dont care about them. I like music. Music is the organisation of sound.It gives thrill Do I need to say it another time?
Again, you dismiss lyrics as a whole as not being a part of music. If I were like you and liked to impose my ideas of what matter on others, I’d use that and say you had no right to talk about pop music. But I won’t, and you shouldn’t question my taste either.
music is organised sound. composing is the act of organising sounds. If you don’t think it is that you are really clueless. It is not my idea it is . What is music for you? Something that has a drum and a guitar and lyrics that rhyme? It is not a fucking question of taste it is a fact.
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So now you’ve called me clueless. See the point above about you questioning the intelligence of others.
POP MUSIC can and does take lyrics into account, and yes it is a form of art. See my earlier post for more points on why you shouldn’t be denounce people who appreciate lyrics as unable to appreciate art.
[quote]jasmincar wrote:
however you call the process of creating music, it is still what it is and you clearly don’t know how it is made.
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No you first mentioned ‘intellectual’ and said you appreciated music this way and I didn’t. Intellectual appreciation is something involving abstract though and reasoning…NOT something emotional. You then described the emotional response you got, how you ‘just feel it’ ‘in your head’. That is not intellectual, that’s emotional. If how you appreciate this music is emotional, then who gave you the right to tell other people that the way they ‘feel’ about a song is wrong? And how can you claim to be better qualified to appreciate art when your going by feelings, which is what a lot of other people do.
And on a greater point, you don’t have a strong grasp of the English language. You then dismiss the lyrics in pop and proceed to judge it on melodies and rhythms, when of course they are simpler. Which is fine, that’s your choice. But then you tell other people who do understand English and do pay attention to the lyrics that they can’t appreciate that music as art. They appreciate it in a different way than you; it’s still art even if you don’t appreciate it as much.
You were the first one to mention appreciating music on an intellectual level. My only mistake was not knowing you had a language problem and were using the word to mean the opposite of what it does.
[quote]jasmincar wrote:
a) the same could be said of you even if you don’t have any musical education and culture
b) I was trying to bring a concept of creating that I qualified of intellectual and now you are nitpicking over the words without even trying to refute the whole concept. You are not trying to prove any point you are only trying to win an argumentation. [/quote]
a) You’re right I value my opinions over those of others. But I don’t assume people don’t appreciate art just because they don’t agree with me, and I don’t assume people like certain music because they are more stupid than me. You brought up certain people being better qualified to appreciate music, and got angry when I used your point to bring up critics (something I wouldn’t do otherwise). The part in bold is the most important.
b)I’m not nitpicking over words, you clearly don’t know what the word ‘intellectual’ means. Yet you based most of your argument around it, that ‘intellectual’ level that you appreciate music on, that I don’t. And then you described something EMOTIONAL, not INTELLECTUAL. That’s not nitpicking. Or does your definition of ‘intellectual’ matter more than mine because I used a dictionary and you, posting from Quebec are more qualified to GET the English language than I am. LOL, that air of superiority I mentioned earlier really shines through.
I know you don’t pay attention to the words in English songs, but please pay attention to the words in your English posts, and mine too.