Well, Paul. Bravo, for revealing your ancestery. I agree that there are alot of ignorant Americans. But, and this is a large but, our elite are more erudite than any other group in the history of the planet. Nearly everything you use or do on a day to day basis can be linked back to our great minds. We continue to expand the boundaries of what is possible. No other country even comes close. Does it strike you that nearly every country in the world sends their brightest minds to be educated in America. Does it also surprise you that many of these great minds choose to stay? Do we force them to stay? No. Name another country where so many immigrants die in dangerous border crossings or on the high seas to escape their dictatorial or monarchial regimes. Give me another example, please, of a country whose intellectual elite are more productive or more creative. Pal, if you don’t think there are plenty of arrogant and ignorant Germans you are sorely mistaken. Don’t even think of getting up on your German(European) high horse. There is much in the current actions of the German people and government that is reprehensible. Not to mention past transgressions. I suggest you make up your mind about your current political, economic, and social loyalties. The European snobbery does not go over well here. Here in America we admire action, not pointless name-calling and insults. We are a culture that worships champions and innovators.
Interesting stuff. I agree with the idea that European nations were influenced greatly by the French Revolution. And it is likewise correct that there are few governments that are direct mirrors of the US and more that look like that of modern day Britain. But consider this – these nations resemble the government, both in its freedoms and its ideals, of the United States than they do ANYTHING that came out of the French Revolution. The result of the French Revolution was a period of anarchy, then two separate totalitarian states. I have read the same things that you have about the French Revolution, how it shook the world and presaged a new era and all that. I never have understood this. Any nation which instituted a government that resembled the bloody mess the French created at the end of the nineteenth century would be in for real trouble. Now if you say the French Revolution and mean this to refer to the INTELLECTUAL revolution – Locke, de Tocqueville, etc., and the thinkers that influenced both the American and the French Revolutions – then I can agree to some extent. These men had a great hand in creating the ideas which led to the first truly successful modern democracy. But this wasn’t France, and I think it a mistake to lump their influence in with the French Revolution and say that’s where their ideas bore fruit. The concepts of personal freedom, limited government, liberty, fraternity, equality etc. took a big shit in France for many terrible years after the Revolution, and steamed away quite successfully in the US. Those representative governments that have lasted for any amount of time since 1776 will have have had to – of necessity – adopted many concepts which were FIRST instituted effectively by the Americans. And no, I don’t mean they had to have a congress and a president and two parties. I mean real freedom of speech, widespread enfranchisement, religious freedom, things like that.
To bring the argument back to the original point, Viktor claimed that democracy was invented by the Greeks, not the Americans. I would argue that while the Greeks, Romans, Vikings, Swiss etc. all had some sort of representative government before America, as Lightandfluffy pointed out, the US was the FIRST to create a democracy as we now use the word.
I really found some of the information that you posted about government support interesting. In light of that and some of the other sources that I read, I definitely have a different stance in regards to the funding of athletes. I agree much more with the Aussie who wrote that page that I sent you my last post.
Finally, shame on you for your “Ugly Americans” talk. You are going back to the route of the ADD, ignorant, loud, whatever American. That is horseshit, and after all this reasoned debate for you to come out with a ridiculous statement like this… really disappointing. Don’t you find it ironic that you insult the Americans as ignorant by yourself making an ignorant and silly statement. Especially living here, you should be chagrined at having made such a statement. My personal experiences in Europe since I was a child actually say quite the opposite – with few exceptions, I would say that Europeans LIKE Americans. And we are nowhere near the top of the list in ugliness, in any sense of the word.
Answer me this – if we are so ignorant, and ugly, and bad… Why are we doing so well? Why are we so rich? Why is our language spoken around the globe? Why is our culture spreading so quickly and rankling people so much? Why are there decade-long waiting lines to legally enter our country? Why do our enemies have to resort to cowardly attacks against unarmed citizens instead of taking us on head-on? Why is our old constitition still working after all these years? Why do we continue to pour out such innovation year in and year out? Why do so many governments depend on us (including, may I add, the EU. ie. asking us for $50 billion to bail them out of their economic woes the week after Sept. 11)? Why do countries automatically turn to us when the shit hits the fan if we are so ignorant? Why do so many countries measure their successes by our own? Indeed, what brought you yourself to the USA?
I do not hold up the USA as a perfect model for all others. We very definitely have our problems and our shortcomings. We are not the best at every single thing. It really bothers me to hear people complaining about us like some dumb thoughtless bully. Consider our position historically. Compared to all the other powers that have had anything remotely approaching our current level of relative power, we are simply REALLY goddamned nice. Our culture spreads because people BUY it, not because we impose it on them.
To make dumbfuck statements like :“No wonder Americans are not liked, they’re all dumb and ignorant”… That is as disgusting as it is untrue. No wonder there is so much resentment – if we’re ignorant and uncouth and all that, what does that make the rest of the world?
I wish you a very bad evening and a horrific training injury for such stupidity.
Well, now that the arms have been pulled back I can talk in a softer tone. In truth, I don’t particularly like to watch soccer but it was fun to play during PE while I was in high school. Don’t care to watch baseball either but I’ll play it on occasion. Golf is really my most hated viewing sport. I’ll take soccer over that any day. Just so you know where I’m coming from. Anyways, best of luck to all of the countries in the tournament. Later.
Viktor, wow. That was terrible and full of falsehood. Where to start?
I am unsure of what you were trying to say about the funding. If you’d like a more detailed debate, you are going to have to settle for my thread with Paul-Martin. He has good solid evidence and interesting viewpoints about this subject, traits which you do not share.
The idea that America is not good at anything outside of its own country… Astounding. Instead of me trying to tackle that one as a whole, could you just give some examples so that I can prove you completely and totally wrong? Please, no cheating by using “Gee the Americans really can’t make a good Afghan rug or real Swiss cheese or French wine.” Give me a field of human endeavor and I will explain to you, with references, why we are at least “good” at it.
Your assertion that the Greeks have a continuous democracy – that is truly amazing. All this time, I thought the Greek pseudo-democracy never made it past Alexander (well over two thousand years ago) and didn’t reappear until after the withdrawal of the Turks a century or two ago. And I thought that when they finally did institute a democracy it had much more in common with the current US/Western European governments than it did with that of 4th century Athens. Gee, you have given me alot to think about… This is exactly why I included the history lesson in my last post to you. You apparently need it. (Leave the history to Paul-Martin, please. You are only making yourself look bad.)
You are not reading my reasoning correctly on the slalom skiing bit. I in no way denigrate the accomplishments of other countries. I don’t think like this, and never have. In fact, I find your statement that Americans are negative and ruin it for ourselves quite humorous. I had the pleasure to live in Europe for a time. I would say that largest difference between the US and European countries is our very optimism, and our can-do attitude. We approach a problem by saying “How can this be overcome?”, and have the viewpoint that whatever it is we can fix it. Many Europeans misconstrue this as arrogance, and unreasonably so. As my erudite uncle once told me, “It ain’t braggin’ if you can do it.”
Please explain to me what you think the word “pride” means. I take pride, Viktor, because in some small way, America is what it is DIRECTLY BECAUSE of me. I am all those things: “happy, lucky and greatfull”. Again, I don’t know about your country, but I make an effort every single day. I am politically active and active in my community. So how dare you say that I cannot take pride in the country that I work every day to mold? Are you somehow suggesting that only my ancestors who came here before this was even a country are the only ones who have a right to feel proud of it? I invite you to visit some day and see why that is a poor idea.
Maybe there is a cultural divide about saying things that are offensive. If somebody’s theories can’t be found offensive wherever it is that you are from, let me give you a Theory of my own: “Based on Viktor’s input, I can make the sweeping generalization that Viktor’s home country has poor schooling in history, reasoning, and english.” I hope you are not offended by my opinion.
I sense some complaint that I am not providing a point-by-point refutation of your arguments. If you would like to join the debate with the big boys, we are going to have to lay down some ground rules. Firstly, sentences must end with periods and begin with capitol letters. Secondly, I can usually figure out your spelling, but sometimes I can’t. Are you a Magyar speaker? Do you need help finding a good online English-Magyar dictionary? I can help. If you tell me where you are from or what language you speak maybe I can help you find an on-line resource. Thirdly, and most importantly, try to use reason and back-up. By just making outrageous statements, you make it hard to have a reasonable debate. If you don’t abide by these rules than you can’t expect a response.
When somebody accuses me of being “stoopid”, I don’t consider a harsh response unwarranted. I really enjoy and value the input from non-Americans on this board, but come on. I would not go onto a Spanish Web page and start throwing around insults about the stupidity and ignorance of its hosts and participants in badly broken, almost un-readble Spanish and not expect to hear about it.
Jochen, I had no intention of joining this thread before the America-bashing started. I played soccer competitively for 14 years and loved it. I also played American football for 6 years and enjoyed it even more. In my experience living in and visiting Europe I always loved the enthusiasm everyone seemed to have for soccer. Personally, I think soccer is like baseball or weightlifting – tremendous fun to do, dreadful to watch.
It could have been an interesting discussion despite your inflammatory lead-off, and in some cases it was. But you know what? I am getting tired of being beat over the head with how everyone else dis-likes or resents or loves to one-up the Americans. Especially when these people are talking out of their ass – “Oh I met one American tourist or saw an American on a TV show, and he was an arrogant ignorant ass so they must all be like that.” You may think it’s funny but in the media and at university here we are constantly chided with how the rest of the world thinks we are jerks and stupid and by the way can I have some money and send my kids to study there and buy a Big Mac, you un-cultured oafs?
Especially when, by and large, we are so damn live-and-let live about just about everything. Jochen, give me one example of a historical super power that has been as hands-off as us – Britain, China, Rome, Russia, the Mongols, France, Nazi Germany – we don’t compare. If we were any of these great empires we wouldn’t have brooked any nonsense. “Oh you don’t like us France? How about we march in and make you all eat Quarter Pounders and learn english? Germany has a policy difference? Tell it to the 101st Airborne. Saddam has biological weapons? An A-Bomb for him! Taiwan complains? Defend yourselves!” Of course not, we don’t think like that. We are a nation of immigrants, so whatever our pride in our own country we still have respect for people of all nationalities. Or, we are too busy and stressed working to spend time getting angry about what the Bundestag is up to. The fact remains that we would much rather trade with free people than conquer, so it pisses a lot of us off to be called Imperialist morons. Especially by the Europeans, who most Americans claim descent from and who a lot of us identify with. Hell, ask the average Joe on the street what he thinks about France and he will probably say “Good people, pretty language. They’re our friends. My aunt is French. Good wine.” If you listen to the media you get the impression that if you asked a Frenchman the same thing, he would say “I spit on the Americans, the bastards brought McDonalds into Cannes and they make us buy their poor excuse for cuisine and for some reason we find ourselves buying their other products too.” Just stop it. Or say somthing nice – we do it ALL THE TIME about Europe here.
There were a lot of stupid posts on here, but only a few “Stars and Stripes Forever” comments and those almost all after people had started in on us about our alleged ignorance or incompetence. I’m not defensive, I’m just sick of being told what a bad person I am for silly reasons. Mix the constant anti-American beating from our chattering classes in with post-September 11 feelings, and you have a pretty bad situation to come in making anti-American comments on an American Website and not expect to hear about it.
p.s. I won’t even touch the ‘commie’ thing, stop watching 80s’ re-runs.
How could anyone not like soccer…??? Low scores, ties, that game has it all…
Well Bobby joe you sound like a well rounded, intellegent, non-redneck individual, time for the A-material was it??. So you mention the dark history of Germany and want a reaction like it’s the first time anybody has said this to me, yeah I cried my eyes out all night and contemplated my excistance, NOT!
The German generation which I am a part of had no part in the war or any involvement with the nazi party so I cannot feel guilty nor can the country for the acts of it’s ancestors. We certianly aren’t the only country with a dark past are we!, I could go on but i’d be stooping to your low hill billy level for which I refuse to do. I am German and proud of it as I see my country move away from the past and towords a bright future with America our strong and much respected allies.
P.S - If your gonna post these sub-intellegent views don’t post your name as Bobby-Joe beacuse we all know you live in the woods somewere in the south and like to rape city boys when their on your turf. I await your response Bobby-Joe but you have neither the humour or intellect to offend me so give it your best shot!
Remember me guy’s?, the bastard who started this whole thing but it hasn’t been an entirely bad experience on the whole. I’m still getting some nasty comments despite my conceding my arguement. Truth is I have nothing against Americans or the American people I was just a little heavy handed with my banter and some of you didn’t like this. Apart from a few real pricks(Bobby Joe AKA the hill-billy) you guys seem intellegent and a few portrey some excellent historical knowledge which blew me away. As for Germany many aspire to Americans and our t.v is baring many simularities to yours which probably isn’t a bad thing(love the Simpsons) except we like a lot of football.
Many of you guys are patriotic as am I so you stick up for your country and rightly so,I suppose it’s like the old cliche ‘If you’ve got it flaunt it’. There is no debating America is the worlds super power and leading light in the field of freedom and opportunity but this is exactly why many nations despise America you’ve got what they want my freinds!
Jealousy is one powerful emotion and probably the fruits of all hatred but you Americans will just have to live with it beacuse it comes with the job of being the best. Besides you have much of Euorpe (England, Germany etc) in your corner fighting for freedom as stated by our leaders to stamp out these extreamest bastards, were allies for christ sakes so lets act like it!(I too must take this advice).
Soccer is something America doesn’t excell at and I hope it stays this way beacuse of the things you say about it but again they are just opinions. Our cultures are expressed through sport and it’s clear the U.S isn’t naturally inclined to soccer I don’t think too many will argue with this so lets end that particualr debate.
It’s hard for me to speak seriosuly beacuse I like to joke around and it’s good to get the blood boiling with a political debate once in a while. However the gloves have come off reasontly and it’s time for me to stop fooling around making fun of the American way so once again I apologise it’s clear you country means everything to you as it does me.
One thing we have achived is to quash unfair sterotypes as you have demonstrated intellegence and histoical knowelge and I HOPE I have quashed the heartless German bastard lacking a GSOH.
In all this we have lost track of our one thing in comman, our love for muscle and bodybuilding so in actual fact we are brothers/sisters in iron if not in blood.
Jochen in Germany (big motherfuka)
We’re comparing medal counts?! That is absolutely pathetic. And if anybody is offended by that, just remember that my dad can beat up your dad.
Herr kraut, before you hurl more insults to the hillbillies, let me remind you that we made great contributions in stopping the fascist horde from taking over the world. Sargent York, from Tenneessee, single handedly captured over 100 krauts in WWI and Audrey Murphy, from Arkansas, wasted hundreds in WWII.
I might add that my grand dad proudly served in the 97th airborne during WWII and he’s told me that the kraut chicks would sell their bodies for…a chocolate bar. Did a GI screw your mom/grandmom for chocolate and that’s why you hold this pathological hatred towards the USA? Or is the complete defeat you suffered the reason that more than 50 years later you still entertain these revanchist fantasies which you display vicariously through this board? Do you still dream that you, the aryan super race, someday will rule the world?
My spelling and grammer suck (kinda like your team)I know. I’m better with numbers than letters , you know like 3-1 USA. Oh yeah the bitch just happens to be Portuguese. Not that I think all Portuguese women are bitches.GOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOAAAAALLL!!
Nice try hillbilly but as I said I couldn’t give two shits in a sandstorm about the past beacuse it’s just that the past. If every countryman worried about the past and acts of thier ancestors they wouldn’t be able to sleep at night and Germany is far from the only guilty party. We live in a completly different age now so why should I give a shit.
Why do you insist on talkin about the past boby?, is it beacuse you have no fututre skinning pigs on your daddys farm??. Or isn’t the prospect of marriying your brother (Billy-Joe) particualry appealing? Keep um comin Bobby coz your about as offensive as an episode of the golden girls!
Sorry bro that previous post was meant for restless.
The only prick around here is you and you ain’t my brother!!!
Ten out of ten for perseverence Bobby-booby but you lack in substance big time. You do however speak some truth as you point out we are not brothers and my rectum thinks itself bloody lucky!!
You are always making references to homosexual anal sex. You seem obsessed by it. Are you a closet homosexual? Is that what you like, which explains it is all you ever talk about? I have nothing against gays but I do hate krauts like you. And I repeat, you are not my brother or my bitch!!! You also think you are funny and you are not. I’ll come back with more for you later.
Q: How do you get a German out of the bath?
A: Turn on the water.
An English prisoner of war was held by the Germans. The Englishman was shot all over the place, and okay until one day when the German told him, “Englander,your arm is infected with gangrene vee must cut it off.”
The English prisoner said, “Well, okay, but could you drop it over England when you go bombing?”
The German replied, “Ya, that vill not be a problem.”
A few weeks later the German tells the Englishman that they have to cut his other arm off. The Englishman says, “Well, could drop it over England like you did last time?”
“Ya, that vill be done,” says the German.
The next day the German tells him that they have to cut his leg off. Once again the Brit says, “Well, could you do the same as before?”
The German replies, “Vhy, ya.”
The next the German tells him they have to cut his other leg. “Well,” begins the Brit, “could you just…”
The German snapped, “No! We think you are trying to escape!”
Q: What’s the difference between a German and a shopping trolley?
A: A shopping trolley has a mind of its own.
Q: What is the difference between the Dresden bombing and Germany’s best comedian?
A: Only the first one can make you smile.
Heard about the new German-Chinese restaurant? The food is great, but an hour later, you’re hungry for power.
Q: Have you heard about the new German microwave ?
A: It’s got ten seats inside.
Why do women love German footballers?
Because they’re on top for 90 minutes and still
come second.
Knock Knock
Who’s there?
Gestapo
Gestapo who?
Ve Vill ask ze Questions!
ha ha ha !!!
We surender
Oooo, touched a nerve hillbilly?? why else would you demenstrate your awsome sense of humour with your repitoir of old German jokes, scraping the barrel a bit ain’t ya??
And yes I am homosexual and the thought of you and Billy-Joe, two toothless, cross-eyed hillbillies in the sack with the family pet was so arousing I had to wack one out.
Anyway i’m board with this shit and i’ve got better things to do than spend the rest of my life trading insults with dumb hillbillies.
By all means continue your posts i’m sure everybody loves old German jokes from the 1950s. However i’m sorry to say I won’t be able to share the laughter beacuse their is only so much my sides can take so for medical reasons I must pull out. So i’m off to spread the fascist word and campign to reinstate the Nazi party beacuse we in Germany are still in the 1950s like Bobby’s joke book! I’m aware certain hillbillies take me literally so prepare for more hilerious posts my freinds, enjoy!