Well…soccer guys get little money when compared to other professional athletes…and the captain of the high school soccer team doesn’t usually get the hottest cheerleader. Ever hear of Football (gridiron)… Hence, soccer does not attract our best athletes. By the way…how is the U.S. doing in the World Cup…Bizitch?
Paul-Martin, I stand corrected. Our government funnels literally DOZENS of dollars a year to military athletes particpating in sports that DIRECTLY improve their soldiery. However, if this is somehow supposed to equal the Ministry of Sport that so many successful Olympic competing countries have, which funnel millions into training and support for their athletes, guess again. Why have the Russians fallen from pre-eminence in the Olympics? Is it because they suddenly became un-athletic since the collapse of the USSR? Not at all. It is because, directly, their Ministry of Sport or their equivalent stopped pouring millions into sports research, development, training, etc. This is something that we simply do not do, which is why the best most researched athletic coaches have names like Zatsiorsky instead of Smith.
Just out of curiousity, Paul, how many of those athletes were our best? According to the sites that you quoted, less than six people in these programs even qualified for the Olympic TRYOUTS. Are these programs available to non-military personnel? No. Do they support sports like curling, pole-vaulting, olympic weight lifting, gymnastics, figure skating? No. Do they represent large sums of money? No. Does this disprove my point – that defeating the US in sport isn’t any special accomplishment, especially given the low priority that we as a nation accord to the Games? Not at all. I think that it is unfair to make statements like “the US took second place in their own winter Olympics, so they’re not good at anything outside of their own country.” If the US opened a Department of Sport like many other countries have with a tiny budget – which for us would be larger than many countries’ entire budgets – we would dominate at least as much as the USSR did. As it is, most of our athletes work at places like the Home Depot and train in their spare time instead of going to some federal training facility. For example our current world record holder in the 100 m dash was flipping burgers in McDonalds before he managed to land a corporate sponsor.
All I have to say is, EAT IT PORTUGAL! USA #1!
Just going to debate you on some of your points. Hope this formats correctly and doesn’t run together like my last post.
“It must really rankle you that ‘uncultured, ignorant’ Americans are doing so damn well in everything (except soccer and slalom snow skiing).”
Actually, in many studies, especially in the areas of health care, quality of life, education, infant mortality, life expectancy, etc., the United States scores lower than many EU countries. By the way, it’s not the “ignorant, uncultured” Americans who are doing so well in the world. It’s those of us who realize that success in life isn’t accomplished by resting on our laurels and running other people down.
“However, PRACTICAL, LONG-LASTING democracy was invented and established here. The voting, participating demos of ancient Greece was only a fraction of the population of the city states in question. Huge swaths of the population were disenfranchised.”
The ideas behind the American political system were influenced to a large extent by the thoughts of European thinkers, Locke in particular. At our country’s founding the entire country was not enfranchised, as blacks, Indians, women, non-land owners, Catholics, and people from many other groups were routinely prevented from exercising a right to vote.
I’m not an expert on medieval political history, but I think you’ll find that the Althingi in Iceland was the first national assembly in post-Roman Europe. Some information can be found at http://www.arctic.is/islandia/government/althingi.html
The Swiss have a long history of democratic rule, again I’m not an expert, but I know they’ve had a Diet respresenting the various cantons since at least the 15th or 16th century, perhaps back into the 13th.
“In any case Viktor, there is not nor will there ever be a functioning modern state which tries to copy the practice of the Greeks. As much as it must rankle you, they model themselves willingly or unwillingly after the US INNOVATIONS of the 18th century.”
Actually, most modern European states have been influenced by the Napoleonic Code and the French Revolution, not by American innovations.
Americans have a lot of things in which we take pride, but we take it a step (or eight or ten) too far and boast about how great and wonderful the United States is and how much better we are than everybody else. Surprisingly, most people don’t like us getting in their faces and running them down, constantly saying how much better the United States is. Anton Myrer describes the American attitude beautifully in “Once an Eagle,” where he writes, “‘Well, we’re a grand and glorious nation, but it strikes me we’re all a little naive - we think if we pick the other fellow up and dust him off and shake hands, we can all wander into the corner saloon and tell one another what swell guys we are.’” (247) Sorry, it doesn’t work that way.
I simply can not believe that some idiots STILL hold to the pathetic belief that soccer WILL catch on in this wonderful land. I could give you sooooo many reasons why kids (yes Amercan kids too) play soccer. Everything from the expense to the fact that it is just another form of baby sitting to the MISTAKEN belief that it is safer then other sports (moms love the idea of their kids not getting hit) to ect… but the FACT remains that it has been the “fastest growing sport” amoung children in this country for over 25 years and still, NO ONE CARES. When these kids grow up they DO NOT WATCH IT!!! Hell, alot of girls are pom pom girls when they are kids but but no one cares to see “pro” pom pom girls for their athletic ability (just T&A). Do you know what the most popular participation sport in this country is (let me say that I don’t consider it a sport but by definition it is)? billiards!! I bet espn doesn’t get great rateings when it is on (even though it is STILL on more then soccer and I bet it still gets better rateings).You like it fine, but I still say it is a third world sport.
So the U.S beat Portugal and suddenly you think your good well I got new for ya, it’s was a collosal flooke. Portugal have been off form since 2000 and thier best player Louis Figo has been playing in the champions league all season (something American players don’t do)and said himself he is fatiguied. Poland ans Korea will have you no problem and even if you do get to the second round you will get hammered by an elite side. That is what the 1st round does, it filters out the crap and you better hope the U.S don’t slip through otherwise your nation will get embaressed by a severe hammering by one of the better nations. It would make my day if England get drawn against the U.S the whole nation would be rubbing their hands and we could have a right ol knees up in the pub when we kick your ass. But sadly we have to play ‘real’ football teams like sweeden and Argentina.
Dude, you started the thread and had to make a comment that you knew would offend some people. And now that you don’t want to take insults after you’ve made some the thread is a pile of horse shit. Or should I say that you can’t take a joke. I absolutely hate it when people like yourself make a joke directed at others and then can’t take it when those people say something back to you. You pussy out of it and say,“Oh, it was just a joke. Lighten up.” Oh, I almost forgot. Ask and you shall receive:
Oh, say can you see, by the dawn’s early light, what so proudly we hailed at the twilight’s last gleaming? Whose broad stripes and bright stars, through the perilous fight, o’er the ramparts we watched, were so galantly streaming? And the rockets’ red glare, the bombs bursting in air, gave proof through the night that our flag was still there. O say, does that Star Spangled Banner yet wave o’er the land of free and the home of the brave?
Accusing someone of poor grmmar or spelling is the lamest come back at this kind of forums. Especially since Viktor is not native english speaker. The guys come to this website from all over the world, many of us have little time and type in a hurry, understandably making spelling errors. And what is this self righteous arrongand bullshit that ‘I can give you a sample in your mother tongue that is better than your English’ are you speaking perfectly every human language?
Paul-Martin, great post. Allow me to respond. The point about the French Revolution is well taken, and I am well aware of the various interplays. However, the reason why we allow ourselves such pompous labels like The Shot Heard Round the World when referring to the outbreak of the Revolutionary War is that the US did it FIRST. You will recall that the French Revolution took place some time AFTER the American Revolution. While we were definitely influenced by the same thinkers, the fact is is that when America won its freedom, France was a still a monarchy (thus the English amazement that the French King would support the anti-monarchial Patriots during the Revolution). I would argue that it was a two way relationship, but that still the French Revolution borrowed tremendously (and, I might add, unsuccessfully) from the Americans. The French Revolution led to anarchy and then a totalitarian state before it led to democracy. The modern French democracy as we know it did not emerge until the 1940’s.
Your point about Iceland and Switzerland is a non sequiter for two reasons. I think that you would find that upon further research the Swiss Confederation, for the majority of its history, offered much less representation than the 4th century Greeks. Part of my own family is descended from one of the hundreds of PRINCES that participated in the Diet for so long. As to Iceland, all the Vikings had their Things and Thingmotes, where votes occurred, but that is even more of a stretch than saying modern democracy was invented by the Swiss. You will notice that only the most powerful men (landed, wealthy, male) were allowed into the Althingi until 1874. I am not trying to shit on the many accomplishments of the Icelanders, but I would be interested if you could find a single shred of evidence that any father of any modern democracy outside Iceland itself took the Althingi into account.
Your point about enfranchisement is also well-taken. However, in a historical sense, I would argue that despite the lack of voting rights for certain groups, the US was leaps and bounds ahead of the Greeks in terms of enfranchisement. I think that you would have been hard-pressed to find a Greek who have uttered something to the effect that it’s pretty obvious that all men are created equal. We made it a guiding principle of our government, and while admittedly it has taken time and struggle, it is more evident now than ever before. The Greeks, on the other hand, were notorious for their xenophobia and condescension towards non-Greeks, and certainly almost never allowed them into their government.
As to our being ranked below other countries in various measures, so what? I don’t recall saying that “it must rankle you that we are the BEST at everything.” Yes, some countries have less poor people, better health care, and so on. However, even the most ardent America hater has to admit that we do pretty damn well for ourselves.
Finally, you are absolutely off-base to chide me for boastfulness. I did not chime in on this thread, you will remember, until the Anti-American sentiment had reached a fever pitch. I am not the type of person to beat somebody over the head with my pride, but when some nitwits make outrageously incorrect statements about my country I feel no remorse about educating them. You’ll note that I did not jump on right away and say “You all suck, America rulez” but am only responding to unfounded criticism: we are not stupid, or ignorant, nor do we have ADD, we don’t play only the sports that we dominate, we ARE good at things outside of our own country, we do NOT want to conquer the world etc. etc. Looking forward to your reply.
Woohoo, more material to debate.
“Our government funnels literally DOZENS of dollars a year to military athletes particpating in sports that DIRECTLY improve their soldiery. However, if this is somehow supposed to equal the Ministry of Sport that so many successful Olympic competing countries have, which funnel millions into training and support for their athletes, guess again. Why have the Russians fallen from pre-eminence in the Olympics? Is it because they suddenly became un-athletic since the collapse of the USSR? Not at all. It is because, directly, their Ministry of Sport or their equivalent stopped pouring millions into sports research, development, training, etc.”
Somehow I suspect that the amount of funding going to our soldiers is a little more than dozens. Dozens of millions perhaps. As for directly improving their soldiering, do you know what MOS these athletes have? I can almost guarantee you it’s not something related to ground combat or anything else that would require an equivalent amount of physical exertion. As for the Russians’ fall from pre-eminence, that can be explained by the simple fact that the Soviet Union broke up into numerous republics. The total medal count in the Summer Olympics from 1960 on, USSR figures first, USA figures second: 1960: 103-71; 1964: 96-90; 1968: 91-107; 1972: 99-94; 1976: 125-94; 1980 and 1984 boycotted by one of the two; 1988: 132-94; 1992 (CIS and the three Baltic Republics) 119-108; 1996: 122 (of which Russia took only 63)-101; 2000: 156 (of which Russia took 88)-107. As you can see, the former Soviet Republics, combined, are doing better than they were before the fall of communism. The Russians haven’t collapsed in the Winter Olympics either. The combined former Soviet Republics totals peaked in 1994 with 31 medals, dropping to 23 in Nagano, and 20 in Salt Lake City. The United States, which hadn’t collected any more than 13 medals in a Winter Olympics in the past 40+ years, suddenly won 34. Whether or not this was a one-time fluke remains to be seen in 2006.
“how many of those athletes were our best? According to the sites that you quoted, less than six people in these programs even qualified for the Olympic TRYOUTS. Are these programs available to non-military personnel? No. Do they support sports like curling, pole-vaulting, olympic weight lifting, gymnastics, figure skating? No. Do they represent large sums of money? No.”
True, some of these athletes were not our best, but others, such as the bobsledders, were among our top athletes. Search the Army web page for Olympic Team, Olympic Athletes, etc. and you’ll find dozens of links to various articles. Most of the PDF files wouldn’t open on my computer because of an internal error in Acrobat Reader so I only posted the few that did open. Check out the World Class Athlete Program for the Army at http://www.armymwr.com/portal/recreation/sportandfitness/program/ Currently it only shows wrestling, track & field, biathlon, and bobsled, although I know other sports such as shooting are also supported. The military as a whole currently supports 22 different sports (http://armedforcessports.dtic.mil/) As for the money, I suspect that support of military sports is fairly well financed, perhaps not compared to other defense expenditures, but it’s not exactly peanuts either.
“If the US opened a Department of Sport like many other countries have with a tiny budget – which for us would be larger than many countries’ entire budgets – we would dominate at least as much as the USSR did. As it is, most of our athletes work at places like the Home Depot and train in their spare time instead of going to some federal training facility.”
http://www.olympic-usa.org/about_us/documents/2000annualreport/pg54_71.pdf
From this website: “The United States Olympic Committee (the “Committee”) was incorporated by Congress for the purpose of establishing national goals for amateur athletic activities and to aid and encourage the attainment of those goals.” This annual report also states that 75% of Olympic athletes used the Olympic Training Centers.
http://www.imagesofcolorado.com/olympic1.html
http://www.photosport.com/arcootc/arcootc.htm
http://www.olympic-usa.org/about_us/contactinfo.htm
No, they’re not federal training facilities, as is evidenced by the USOC’s financial report. However, training facilities in other countries are not nationalized either. Since you used Germany as a previous example, let’s see how the NOK gets its funding. From http://www.nok.de/komitee.php : it states that it is funded through “die Beiträge der Mitglieder; Einnahmen aus der Lotterie GlücksSpirale"; wirtschaftliche Maßnahmen, insbesondere durch Vergabe von Lizenzen für die Nutzung von Rechten, die es besitzt."
Not a mention of government funding. In fact, your previous quote from the BMI “’The Federal Minister of the Interior promotes sports. The success of Germany’s top athletes would not be possible without financial support’,” is grossly misleading. By placing these two sentences together (would you like to link the exact web page?) it gives the appearance of federal funding, which is not in fact the case. The financial support comes from private organizations, but the fact that the BMI states that financial support is imperative gives the mistaken impression that it is the BMI doing the funding.
Don’t believe everything you hear on TV. While the rest of the world watches the Olympics, we hear sob stories about the incredible hardships so and so went through to make it to the Olympics. These people are not the majority of our Olympians, but the media blows everything so far out of proportion that we think that every Olympian overcame tremendous obstacles to make it to the Olympics. It’s just not the case.
P.S.
“Just out of curiousity, Paul, how many of those athletes were our best?”
The name is Paul-Martin, you had it right in the first paragraph. This is another pet peeve of mine. The only Americans who ever get it right are those who have double names themselves. Very few Europeans mess this up, mostly just the ones who speak English.
HAHAHA. USA beats Portugal and the favorites score on their own net. Stupid fucks. I love it. My wife works with a loud mouth big assed Portuges bitch and all she talks about is Futball, blah, blah. She’s not running her yap now. I also live in the Portugese part of Toronto and it’s strangely quiet today. Maybe soccer’s not so boring afterall.GOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOAAAAAAAALLLLL!!
One of the suppositions in your argument is that democracy or republican government is inherently superior to monarchy. I disagree with that, as I presently am unsure whether democratic government or constitutional monarchy is better. My examples of Switzerland and Iceland were meant to show that democratic ideas aren’t invented by any one people, but rather that they are ideas which have existed throughout history. As for Iceland, even if the representatives to the Althingi were the most powerful men in their region it doesn’t make the government any less democratic. As long as the people assented to their representatives it’s democratic. Again, I’m not an expert, so I don’t know what the case really was. I also never claimed that the Swiss invented the modern idea of democracy; to do so would be ludicrous. It would be equally ludicrous to claim that the United States invented the modern idea of democracy. Democratic ideas have been in existence for thousands of years, plus there isn’t a single country in Europe which has adopted the US model.
Although the American Revolution occurred before the French Revolution I don’t believe that it had any more than a minor effect on the goings on in France, nor was it the first anti-monarchical revolution. The Swiss formed their confederation in 1291, the Flemings revolted in the 16th century, as did the German farmers. The Puritans overthrew the English monarchy in the mid-17th century. It was only a matter of time before the same revolutionary fever would sweep through France, and the conditions happened to be beneficial to the Revolution in the years following the war in America. The fact that so much money was spent by the French to defeat the British may very well have been one of the causes that led to the unhappiness with the government that caused the revolution.
The French support of the British was no surprise, as they had always sought to defeat the British in the New World. Nor were the colonists uniformly anti-monarch. Many remained loyal to the king, and many who fought against him fought against his injustices and corruption, not against the idea of a monarch.
Most Americans are stupid. A quarter of all American adults can’t point out the US on a world map. I’m sorry, but that’s just pathetic. Then when you consider the “ugly Americans” you encounter everywhere you go in Europe it shouldn’t really be that surprising that the world doesn’t hold America in high regard.
It’s Portuguese, you dumbass. And it was the worst i ever saw my country playing. To lose to the USA, what a damn shame…
Paul-Martin, while we are on the issue of pet peeves, it is not necessary to re-quote everything that I said for the posts. I doubt if anybody (except hopefully Viktor) is even paying any attention to us, so I think that I can easily follow you. As for your name, I hope you don’t give yourself an ulcer over that. You live in a culture where the overwhelming majority of people have a single first name, so you may just as well not get upset over it.
In any case, I also went to the NOK Website. You are absolutely correct, federal funding is on the DECLINE in Germany for their Olympic athletes. However, from their page: “During the past decades, the Federal Foreign Office and the Federal Ministry for Economic Co-operation and Development have supported the international development co-operation of German sport by making considerable contributions from their cultural funds.” These are the very first two sentences on their funding page. The quotes I used from www.bund.de in my example were also CONSECUTIVE un-edited sentences used to describe the ministry of sport. Also, from the same page: “In view of increasing demands and costs, German sport requests the Federal Government to supply adequate funds in the future. Above all, the Ministry for Economic Co-operation and Development should again participate in international aid programmes, as it has, in the opinion of the sports bodies, a major responsibility for the funding of many project programmes”. Your contention that they are not federally supported at all is incorrect, but it looks as they cut their budgets they will adopt a stance which is closer to what you say.
I am not sure why you brought up the USOC or the Olympic training facilities in the US? As they are not government organizations, as you note, they have little to do with the debate.
Members of the military have brought in 12 medals since the end of the draft in the early 1970’s, the vast majority of them coming in shooting and “other martial sports”, although a few have come in non-martial sports as you say. I stand corrected about the costs though – US taxpayers chipped in almost $5 million for the military medalists to subsidize their training while on duty. Is a military-only, sport limited Olympic program analagous to a nationwide Ministry of Sport, though?
I was curious to read the numbers that you posted about the former Soviet medals. However, I would like to do a little more reading before I fully reply. I found that Ukrainian athletes are actually paid 20 000 - 50 000 dollars depending on the medal won by its athletes. The Russians spend at least as much as the US on their Olympic athletes, despite their relatively poor economy. All of the former Soviet Republics maintain a Sports Department or the equivalent thereof, which are charged with taking care of the Olympic athletes. http://www.the5rings.com/medalpop.htm
Check out this link and tell me what you think. While you posted a lot of good information, I have (yet) to change my mind – if the US instituted an entire branch of government to encourage and fund athletes, we would win a whole lot more medals than we do. As it is, I still say it is no special accomplishment to outdo the Americans in the Olympics, and certainly nothing to brag about.
Well, Paul. I refuse to call you Paul-. Hypenated names are symptomatic of people who refuse to take a stand. What happens if you keep hyphenating names generation after generation? Your name becomes too long for people to pronounce and you end up being friendless as well as sackless. So surprise me and take a stand. Tell me what country you are from. Tell me your ancestery. Don’t just rip on the United States. Let’s have ourselves a little comparison.
Don’t be obtuse about our funding of athletes. If we funded them properly, no one else would stand a chance. As it is, our AMATEUR, athletes tend to finish 1st or 2nd most of the time. Can you imagine if we developed a whole class of PROFESSIONAL ATHELETE?!? (See the United States basketball performances in the last several Olympics for an example)
Now for God’s sake, how can you use Switzerland or Iceland as any sort of example. Do you think they are, or have ever, been major players on the world stage? I don’t think Madison had any Swiss writings or Icelandic sagas on his mind when he was writing the Constitution. For Heavens sake, Switzerland refused to participate in the good versus evil struggle that was WWII. I am part Swiss and believe me, I don’t trumpet that around very often. Iceland at least had the good graces to offer her help in the struggle against Hitler.
Our founding fathers were influenced by the theories of European thinkers. However, they did what those erudite gentleman were unable to do, they made the theory into a reality. We hashed out an absolutely wonderful governemnt WHILE fighting the most powerful nation on earth. The French Revolution was one of the first of the American-inspired triumphs of democracy. Remember, that the French citizenry, and soldiers had been deeply influenced by the example of the Americans. If you don’t believe me, read the various journals or writings of the time. Please also remember the dates of the respective revolutions. Our independence day was July 4th, 1776. The storming of the Bastille occurred on July 14th, 1790. So no more stupidity about how the French Revolution inspired our revolution. Also remember that the Greek “Democracy” was more theoretical than actual. By the way Paul, I like how you use various sources to back up what you say. I’d rather debate with someone who tries to prove what they say.
Ryan my freind did you ejaculate when you were singing the national anthem? thought so!(o.k last gag) When I said lighten up is was serious but at the risk of sounding an ass I will concede and say that my remarks would have rubbed some of you the wrong way and so apolgise. I am fed up with trading insults although it was funny at the time now it has got a little outta hand. If we insist on continuing bashing our heads against brick walls with these debates this thread will go on forever. I ask that all parties withdraw thier arms beacuse it’s clear there is no right or wrong answer to these heated political debates just opinions. Germany is surrendering once again but with a sense of humour to show we aren’t all heatless bastards, I hope I have done my country justice as you certainly have!
Peace out.
To LightandFluffy:
Paul-Martin is my first name. It’s kind of like John Paul, Billy Bob, Mary Knox, etc., just with a hyphen. Did someone out there say Americans aren’t ignorant? 
I’m from the DC area, have lived here my whole life, except for my junior year abroad when I lived in Germany. I’m half German, half American, and an American citizen.
Most athletes in the Olympics are amateurs, or at least that was the original purpose behind the Olympics and the reason people such as Jim Thorpe got their medals stripped for being professionals. Needless to say that’s been relaxed somewhat. Plus if you take a look at the Olympic training center sites and the USOC website you’ll see that there’s quite a lot of money going to fund Olympic athletes.
Iceland has never been a major player on the world stage, but it played a vitally important role in WWII in keeping the shipping lanes in the North Atlantic open to Allied shipping, and in the Cold War for keeping an eye on Soviet fleet movements. The Swiss have contributed mercenary soldiers to conflicts throughout Europe over the centuries, as they were fierce fighters and good marksmen. The only remnant today is the Swiss Guard at the Vatican. Since the Congress of Vienna declared Switzerland’s permanent neutrality in 1815 Switzerland has remained neutral in every European conflict. Anyone who doesn’t respect that should be ashamed of themselves.
Madison and Jefferson may not have had Iceland and Switzerland in mind when they and others brainstormed about what type of government they would form, but they were without a doubt influenced by Locke, Rousseau, and ancient Greece and Rome.
The French on their part kept the American revolution in mind, and it undoubtedly affected the behavior of the French revolutionaries, although I don’t believe it was the primary intellectual force behind the Revolution. And if you’d read my posts more carefully you’d see that I never claimed the French Revolution came before the American one, quite the opposite in fact.
To redman_vw:
First of all, the funding pages you quoted refer to funding of international sport development in Third World countries, not to the training of Olympic athletes in Germany.
Your link was pretty interesting. I agree that Russia and other Eastern Bloc countries fund their athletes moreso than Western countries, although I heard a few years ago that Pepsi had stepped in to help out the Russian Olympic Team. As to whether or not the US would win more medals with more funding, that’s debatable. I think the US needs to fund amateur athletics better, but in order to win more medals you need to find athletes to compete in these events. Most people compete in basketball, baseball, and football, and don’t even bother attempting to learn other sports. The big three bring in TV revenue, alumni support, etc. so that all the funds go to those sports. By the time it comes around to sports like track, we get the scraps from the table. Then you have Title IX, which has led to sports programs being axed at college campuses across the nation, and all of a sudden the future of sports in America isn’t looking as rosy.
I have a therory that krauts love soccer beacuse they are boring people, like soccer, and closet homos who get their jollies watching those wimpy, fairy soccer players. That’s why a fuhrer was elected in that country because they need a srong hand to put them in their place. Furthermore, you guys are nothing but bloodthirsty, barbarian savages that exterminated 6 million innocent helpless jews. Respond to this, ha ha
First, there is no need to justify the fact you speek more than one language, nor that you dont speek mine. also no need to defend yourself for being happy to be american in work, play, and travels. . “It must really rankle you that “uncultured, ignorant” Americans are doing so damn well in everything (except soccer and slalom snow skiing). mmm i dont remember saying you were “uncultured or ignorant”, not to harp on one point, but read what is there not what you think. my opinion that america is not good at anything outside your own country is a really broad, sweeping remark. but for the most part i believe it. now before attack me for it,
when i say that americans are not good at anything outside your own country, its too much of a broud statement isnt it? . It must really rankle you that “uncultured, ignorant” Americans are doing so damn well in everything (except soccer and slalom snow skiing). well that is right along the same lines of what i said, is that to imply that Europeans are only good at those two things? or america is just not good at them? even if it is the later you have no right to defend yourself against what i say, then to turn around and use the same methods to suport yourself. Greece is where Democracy was born and still lives today, i guess that is as practical, and long lasting as you can get- to stand the test of time. i have no problem that it was established in america, i havent said otherwise. the only reason i even brought it up in the first place is because someone said that it was “our form of government has transformed the planet” as if there should be a “made in america” stamp on it and continued to tell me what he has to be proud of. which is strange because the same guy claims to speek, read, and write Greek, so would have recogniced “democracy” in that case. apart from that i didnt critisize your government, and am not going to start. so no, the history lesson doesnt “rankle” me. and i dont know why you felt like you had to provide it. as far as being proud of being a american citizen, like i said, unless you made an effort, you didnt have any control over it. i didnt say you should be ashamed of it, i used the words “happy, lucky and greatfull”. so why are you trying to defend yourself when im not taking swings at you. happy, lucky and greatfull are good things you know. but there is nothing to be proud of because/if you had no control over it, being a good citizen though is somthing you can take pride in if that is the case. my point about funding has been debated just by the fact that you mentioned it and didnt have anything to say, Paul-Martin, i think has picked up where i left off, and has more to say and can put it far, far better then i could. “the first post was just and opinion, nothing offencive in it, unless people are insecure”. I quote: " have a therory that Americans hate soccer beacuse…” yes he did just have an opinion, he said it himself, he had a THERORY… as far as the rest being offencive, “Americans hate soccer beacuse they are no damn good at it and only watch sporting events if they can win um, please correct me if i’m wrong. Anyway any soccer fans speak up it is the world cup you know and U.S.A are involved although not for very long as usual, ha ha” well that is the same for all countries, world series, Africa isnt going to care, Comonwelth Games, america isnt really going to care for the most part. are you that sensitive that you find it that offencive, esspecially when it applies to all countries.???. thank you very much Bubba Smith, wheather it is me speaking english or an american speaking Magyar, get over it, you dont get thanked, nor should you for doing somthing that is expected of you, and english is expected on this board. you denote yourself by making such petty critisisims. Light and Fluffy, just fuck off, you are making yourself look stoopid, Redman and Paul-Martin are at least keeping their argument on a integigent level, you on the otherhand are limitted to attacking a persons name. school yard stuff, hu? in this cas 3 is a croud, plus you are making yourself look like a halfwitt, especially compared to Paul-Martin. america fucks things up for itself, for who ever is interested in the World Cup i hope you enjoy it.
Viktor, Viktor, Viktor. Tsk, Tsk, Tsk. If I was your mother, I’d send you to bed without any supper for the nasty things you said about my country and me. However, you still haven’t told me what country you live in. What’s the matter? Are you worried that your country will pale by comparison? Remember that I am just a foolish American. There is nothing to be afraid of.