back on topic,
this guy seem to do alright on back on chest same day.
intensemuscle.com/15169-lhs-powerbuilding-routine.html
[quote]alit4 wrote:
back on topic,
this guy seem to do alright on back on chest same day.
intensemuscle.com/15169-lhs-powerbuilding-routine.html[/quote]
I think you missed it…but I know I have already written that I have trained that way before. I quit for several reasons, the most important being the weight I use now hindering the ability to go all out on the second muscle groups trained in the same session.
The other reason is that I train about 6 days a week and training back and chest on the same day means I can’t train biceps, triceps or even shoulders in some cases afterwards because all of those groups come into play when training chest and back. therefore, unless I am only training a couple time a week, it would screw up my ability to train as frequently as I do and still make further progress.
[quote]Professor X wrote:
alit4 wrote:
back on topic,
this guy seem to do alright on back on chest same day.
intensemuscle.com/15169-lhs-powerbuilding-routine.html
I think you missed it…but I know I have already written that I have trained that way before. I quit for several reasons, the most important being the weight I use now hindering the ability to go all out on the second muscle groups trained in the same session.
The other reason is that I train about 6 days a week and training back and chest on the same day means I can’t train biceps, triceps or even shoulders in some cases afterwards because all of those groups come into play when training chest and back. therefore, unless I am only training a couple time a week, it would screw up my ability to train as frequently as I do and still make further progress.[/quote]
alit4, the esteemed Professor has his own entrenched way of doing things, and it’s more or less useless to argue with him. What works for him works for him. That being said, 90% of what he stands for and what he preaches on this site, I agree with. There is a reason he is big.
There are ways to effectively manage a split working chest and (upper) back on the same day, even for a more advanced trainee. Professor X will never agree to this, even if I spelled out exactly how it could be done, so I dropped out of this conversation a few days back. But rest assured it can be done.
[quote]forlife wrote:
Sentoguy wrote:
How was it methodically controlled between the two training types?
Did you strap on thousands of dollars worth of equipment to know exactly how much energy you were expending during every single workout that you did and eat according to that? Did you use the scale to measure progress and then adjust calories based on that? How was this done?
I increased caloric intake as my caloric expenditure increased, based on rough estimates. Not perfect, but the ratio was pretty consistent across both splits and TBT.[/quote]
Again though, how did you gauge your caloric expenditure/needs, what were your estimates based on? And how do you determine the difference between the energy expenditure necessary for splits compared to TBT?
Your argument up until now seems to be that you got better results from TBT than on splits using the same caloric intake (or ratio, whatever that means).
Again, my argument is that unless you were actively tracking your bodyweight (or some other concrete method of tracking muscular gains) and using that to adjust your caloric intake, or using some really sophisticated methods of determining energy expenditure (which I doubt was the case), all that your little experiment really tells you is that your TBT routine requires less calories to be in a surplus from than the splits that you were doing.
It doesn’t tell you that TBT is superior to splits for building muscle.
[quote]doubleh wrote:
Professor X wrote:
alit4 wrote:
back on topic,
this guy seem to do alright on back on chest same day.
intensemuscle.com/15169-lhs-powerbuilding-routine.html
I think you missed it…but I know I have already written that I have trained that way before. I quit for several reasons, the most important being the weight I use now hindering the ability to go all out on the second muscle groups trained in the same session.
The other reason is that I train about 6 days a week and training back and chest on the same day means I can’t train biceps, triceps or even shoulders in some cases afterwards because all of those groups come into play when training chest and back. therefore, unless I am only training a couple time a week, it would screw up my ability to train as frequently as I do and still make further progress.
alit4, the esteemed Professor has his own entrenched way of doing things, and it’s more or less useless to argue with him. What works for him works for him. That being said, 90% of what he stands for and what he preaches on this site, I agree with. There is a reason he is big.
There are ways to effectively manage a split working chest and (upper) back on the same day, even for a more advanced trainee. Professor X will never agree to this, even if I spelled out exactly how it could be done, so I dropped out of this conversation a few days back. But rest assured it can be done.[/quote]
I would never agree to what? I know what I can get away with long term from trying it. I know that training those two groups on the same day REDUCES the effectiveness of training both. If YOU can get away with it, more power to you. You dropped out of the discussion because you tried to tell me that I should go back to barbells even though I saw much more growth doing dumbbells and then doing the HS machines.
I never could train back and chest same days.
I tried,and if i got a good work out with one I was too tired to get a decent weight out on the other part.
I would do back and shoulders and the I would do legs then I would do chest and arms. this seemed to work best for me.
[quote]Sentoguy wrote:
Again, my argument is that unless you were actively tracking your bodyweight (or some other concrete method of tracking muscular gains) and using that to adjust your caloric intake, or using some really sophisticated methods of determining energy expenditure (which I doubt was the case), all that your little experiment really tells you is that your TBT routine requires less calories to be in a surplus from than the splits that you were doing.
[/quote]
I actively tracked bodyweight and lifts. I calculated calories burned, and tracked calories spent. I didn’t use sophisticated methods to do it, nor do I claim my results would meet scientific standards. All I know is that I saw better results under TBT than splits.
That doesn’t mean I wouldn’t go back to splits at some point. For all I know, the improvement was from significantly changing my training routine, rather than having anything to do with the routine itself. I might see another significant jump by changing back to splits at some point.
I was just answering the OP’s question about whether training back/chest in the same day can be an effective routine. For me, the answer is YES.
The fact is, its easy to find 100 heavily muscular individuals who use splits but its difficult to point out even a dozen heavily muscular individuals who use exclusively TBT. I think this is the root of my belief of why training exclusively with TBT forever is foolish, especially if one wants to reach their genetic maximum.
[quote]forlife wrote:
I was just answering the OP’s question about whether training back/chest in the same day can be an effective routine. For me, the answer is YES.[/quote]
Well, I can’t argue with that. Until one gets to the point where they are using some seriously heavy weights I agree that it can be effective.
[quote]Sentoguy wrote:
forlife wrote:
I was just answering the OP’s question about whether training back/chest in the same day can be an effective routine. For me, the answer is YES.
Well, I can’t argue with that. Until one gets to the point where they are using some seriously heavy weights I agree that it can be effective.[/quote]
Yeah, I thought it would be too much volume - as I like to throw in 4 or 5 exercises for the back alone - to do both on the same day, but I actually have been enjoying it.
Of course, I am nowhere near moving seriously heavy weight.
[quote]Professor X wrote:
alit4 wrote:
back on topic,
this guy seem to do alright on back on chest same day.
intensemuscle.com/15169-lhs-powerbuilding-routine.html
I think you missed it…but I know I have already written that I have trained that way before. I quit for several reasons, the most important being the weight I use now hindering the ability to go all out on the second muscle groups trained in the same session.
The other reason is that I train about 6 days a week and training back and chest on the same day means I can’t train biceps, triceps or even shoulders in some cases afterwards because all of those groups come into play when training chest and back. therefore, unless I am only training a couple time a week, it would screw up my ability to train as frequently as I do and still make further progress.[/quote]
understood.
i was just trying to get thread back on topic. as interesting as sentoguy and forlife’s argument is, i was looking for more debate on the back/chest issue.
[quote]Josh Rider wrote:
The fact is, its easy to find 100 heavily muscular individuals who use splits but its difficult to point out even a dozen heavily muscular individuals who use exclusively TBT. I think this is the root of my belief of why training exclusively with TBT forever is foolish, especially if one wants to reach their genetic maximum. [/quote]
I agree that “its easy to find 100 heavily muscular individuals who use splits but its difficult to point out even a dozen heavily muscular individuals who use exclusively TBT”. But ,not counting old people doing machine circuits, i dont know (personally) even 1 person who trained exclusively with full body workouts. And the only guys i know who used it are fighters (even them dont use it most of the time). So its hard to compare.
That being said, i think if one’s primary interest is growth split routines are better. I just dont agree with notion most have here that full body workouts leads to no results, are wuss workouts etc… Its not optimal, or specific, but it still can work if one train hard and eat right.
I’m not what one would consider “heavily muscular”, but i was able to put 40lbs of muscle ,without ever stoping martial arts/cardio or doing a “bulking” diet, doing mostly(not exclusivly) full body workouts. So it isnt that bad.
Understand that i’m not giving advice (as i think there is a lot people here who acomplished more and know more than me) or saying tbt is the only way to go (even because, as i said earlier, i’m using mostly split routines lately), i’m just sharing what i experienced. My only point is that when people actually try, they see that it can work despite of it lack of popularity.
[quote]MaddyD wrote:
I never could train back and chest same days.
I tried,and if i got a good work out with one I was too tired to get a decent weight out on the other part.
I would do back and shoulders and the I would do legs then I would do chest and arms. this seemed to work best for me.
[/quote]
Interesting, the last paragraph basically describes one of yates’ old splits… I like that one, too.
For bodybuilding i cannot see this working optimally, i always did chest and biceps, and that was because if you put enough intensity into chest then your pretty much done on heavy things like rows.
In strength where mass gain and chest size are not relevant, chest day wouldn’t be the same, therefore training upper back wouldn’t be as much of a problem.
[quote]Sagat wrote:
That being said, i think if one’s primary interest is growth split routines are better. I just dont agree with notion most have here that full body workouts leads to no results, are wuss workouts etc… [/quote]
No one has written that it leads to NO results. I doubt a program exists where you simply can not grow any muscle unless it involves the avoidance of eating or of using heavy weight.
The point is, why the hell would someone looking to make the most progress use a routine that is AVOIDED by nearly every really huge muscular guy in the country?
I could see if this were some “half and half” deal where there are a large number of people with 20" arms using TBT…BUT THAT IS NOT THE CASE.
I mean, shit, I am still waiting on even 5 examples of people who got really big after starting really skinny using that routine exclusively.
It is like some of you are arguing for this based on nothing but the opinion of some author and not because it really makes sense in the real world.
[quote]Professor X wrote:
It is like some of you are arguing for this based on nothing but the opinion of some author and not because it really makes sense in the real world.[/quote]
Yeah, you know, like Democ… ahh, nevermind… 
[quote]Professor X wrote:
Sagat wrote:
That being said, i think if one’s primary interest is growth split routines are better. I just dont agree with notion most have here that full body workouts leads to no results, are wuss workouts etc…
No one has written that it leads to NO results. I doubt a program exists where you simply can not grow any muscle unless it involves the avoidance of eating or of using heavy weight.
The point is, why the hell would someone looking to make the most progress use a routine that is AVOIDED by nearly every really huge muscular guy in the country?
I could see if this were some “half and half” deal where there are a large number of people with 20" arms using TBT…BUT THAT IS NOT THE CASE.
I mean, shit, I am still waiting on even 5 examples of people who got really big after starting really skinny using that routine exclusively.
It is like some of you are arguing for this based on nothing but the opinion of some author and not because it really makes sense in the real world.[/quote]
When did i say i’m basing my opinion in some author? Now, i dont even know what are you disagreeing with…
[quote]Josh Rider wrote:
The fact is, its easy to find 100 heavily muscular individuals who use splits but its difficult to point out even a dozen heavily muscular individuals who use exclusively TBT.
I think this is the root of my belief of why training exclusively with TBT forever is foolish, especially if one wants to reach their genetic maximum. [/quote]
I think training any particular method forever is foolish. As with nutrition, it is advantageous to keep your body guessing.
[quote]forlife wrote:
Josh Rider wrote:
The fact is, its easy to find 100 heavily muscular individuals who use splits but its difficult to point out even a dozen heavily muscular individuals who use exclusively TBT.
I think this is the root of my belief of why training exclusively with TBT forever is foolish, especially if one wants to reach their genetic maximum.
I think training any particular method forever is foolish. As with nutrition, it is advantageous to keep your body guessing.[/quote]
It’s not about keeping your body guessing though, it’s about providing your body with the stimulus/nutrients that produce a specific adaptation (in this case muscle mass).
If I go out and run a marathon today, and then try a powerlifting meet tomorrow, and then play some pick-up games of basketball the next day, wrestle the next, and do a diving competition the next my body is going to be guessing the whole time. But that’s not going to result in anything even closely resembling an optimal muscle building program.
I know some authors are big on sayings like “everything works, but nothing works forever”, “muscle confusion”, and “preventing adaptation to a program” (one of my personal pet peeves) and reading such things severely overcomplicates training in young impressionable newbie’s minds and often times leads to mistakes like “training ADD”, or thinking that you need to totally re-write your program every (insert arbitrary period of time).
The truth is that this building muscle thing is really pretty simple, and if you want a specific type of adaptation, you must provide the body with a specific type of stimulus.
If your program doesn’t provide that specific type of stimulus, then no matter how much your muscles are guessing, it’s won’t be an optimal muscle building program. If it does, then there really is no reason to change it (unless you hit a legitimate plateau, that isn’t the result of needing to eat more), and even then, minor changes are better than major ones in most cases.
BTW, this is more of a rant on the general subject than specifically directed towards any one person in particular.
[quote]Professor X wrote:
doubleh wrote:
Professor X wrote:
alit4 wrote:
back on topic,
this guy seem to do alright on back on chest same day.
intensemuscle.com/15169-lhs-powerbuilding-routine.html
I think you missed it…but I know I have already written that I have trained that way before. I quit for several reasons, the most important being the weight I use now hindering the ability to go all out on the second muscle groups trained in the same session.
The other reason is that I train about 6 days a week and training back and chest on the same day means I can’t train biceps, triceps or even shoulders in some cases afterwards because all of those groups come into play when training chest and back.
therefore, unless I am only training a couple time a week, it would screw up my ability to train as frequently as I do and still make further progress.
alit4, the esteemed Professor has his own entrenched way of doing things, and it’s more or less useless to argue with him. What works for him works for him. That being said, 90% of what he stands for and what he preaches on this site, I agree with. There is a reason he is big.
There are ways to effectively manage a split working chest and (upper) back on the same day, even for a more advanced trainee. Professor X will never agree to this, even if I spelled out exactly how it could be done, so I dropped out of this conversation a few days back. But rest assured it can be done.
I would never agree to what? I know what I can get away with long term from trying it. I know that training those two groups on the same day REDUCES the effectiveness of training both. If YOU can get away with it, more power to you. You dropped out of the discussion because you tried to tell me that I should go back to barbells even though I saw much more growth doing dumbbells and then doing the HS machines.
[/quote]
I never said that at all. I just said you might be surprised at how HS strength correlates to barbell stength. It’s 2 different worlds.
I’m saying you would never agree that training chest and back on the same day can be as or more effective than spltting them up. Doing so does not reduce the effctiveness of either, if you do it correctly. It’s not about “getting away” with anything, it’s about optimal results. Right? You preach this all the time.
If you get optimal results splitting them as you say you do, fine. But I have a problem with you dismissing anyone who does things a little differently. This isn’t a TBT vs splits debate; anyone who’s done this long enough knows splits are superior. It’s more along the lines of how to structure the split.
I have found I’ve gotten better results from training them on the same day. Volume is not the only stimulus to consider for optimal growth.