Working Chest and Back on Same Day

Training Bodybuilding
41

[quote]doubleh wrote:

Define “effective”. I have been training this way for years. At my peak condition I was a pretty lean 248 lbs. I am now considerably more than that, although not as lean. As I mentioned I would be very close to raw elite powerlifting #s if I cut some fat. I would imagine many people on this board could not claim the same.

I think you are missing my point. For a 1-bodypart-per-week split, with high volume - yes keeping up intensity for that type of session for TWO bodyparts would be difficult. But by cutting volume and increasing frequency it is not an issue. I’d say how many sets I do per bodypart, but we could get bogged down in semantics again by who defines what as a “set”.

Screw it, I’ll take a shot. I do 8-12 sets per bodypart that I count, usually between 3 different exercises. Some might consider 2-3 of those sets warm-ups.[/quote]

Just so you know, I wasn’t directing my post solely at you.

And I am talking about 1-bodypart-per-week with high volume so thats the perspective I’m speaking from (16-ish sets per major part not including warm up). Maybe I’d up the frequency for a lagging bodypart, but that’s getting away from this discussion.

42

[quote]IronDude17 wrote:
doubleh wrote:

Define “effective”. I have been training this way for years. At my peak condition I was a pretty lean 248 lbs. I am now considerably more than that, although not as lean. As I mentioned I would be very close to raw elite powerlifting #s if I cut some fat. I would imagine many people on this board could not claim the same.

I think you are missing my point. For a 1-bodypart-per-week split, with high volume - yes keeping up intensity for that type of session for TWO bodyparts would be difficult. But by cutting volume and increasing frequency it is not an issue. I’d say how many sets I do per bodypart, but we could get bogged down in semantics again by who defines what as a “set”.

Screw it, I’ll take a shot. I do 8-12 sets per bodypart that I count, usually between 3 different exercises. Some might consider 2-3 of those sets warm-ups.

Just so you know, I wasn’t directing my post solely at you.

And I am talking about 1-bodypart-per-week with high volume so thats the perspective I’m speaking from (16-ish sets per major part not including warm up). Maybe I’d up the frequency for a lagging bodypart, but that’s getting away from this discussion.[/quote]

Understood, I thought it was.

Yes, as you see I agree there. 16 working sets for chest and back the same day - I’ll go ahead and throw out the term “impossible” to maintain intensity through 32 freakin’ sets. Which is why i was careful to explain that volume must be dropped, and frequncy subsequently increased, to reap the benefits of such a split.

43

[quote]doubleh wrote:
Professor X wrote:
doubleh wrote:
Professor X wrote:
doubleh wrote:

Well, I do bench 400+ lbs, although sadly not for reps. But I am working on it.

Then you aren’t at the level of guys who DO lift that much for reps. I made that point because the strength level of someone who actually TRAINS with that much for several reps is far beyond that of the guy who has that as his one rep max.

Perhaps. No point in even arguing that line of reasoning, though. It’s not as if there’s some magic # you have to bench whereby it then becomes impossible to train back with the same intensity the same day. Fatigue and intensity are too subjective and vary too greatly person to person.

Incidentally, Professor, what is your bench 1RM these days?

I don’t do one rep maxes. I work out with 450lbs for 8 reps as my last set on flat bench hs presses. that is after doing two other exercises before that. I first hit 405lbs several years ago when I was training more like a powerlifter and was doing one rep maxes.

Ummm, Professor X… I also can rep 400+ on Hammer Strength bench. Comparing that to a barbell free weight bench is, well, there’s no comparison.

I only do them rarely, but I just checked my journal and last time I did them I finished up with 430x5, also after 2 other exercises, which incidentally were free weight presses, not more machines. So we’re probably pretty close.

I knew I remembered you were mostly a machine guy.
[/quote]

The HS machine I use is different than most. It lies flat and there is NO counter weight. It is in my profile. It is nothing like the ones that sit upright.

Also, like already wrote, I reached 405lbs on the free weight barbell bench several years ago. I am not weaker now.

44

[quote]doubleh wrote:
16 working sets for chest and back the same day - I’ll go ahead and throw out the term “impossible” to maintain intensity through 32 freakin’ sets. Which is why i was careful to explain that volume must be dropped, and frequncy subsequently increased, to reap the benefits of such a split.[/quote]

I agree. I do at least 18 sets of chest/week, and always at the top of my workout with full strength. There is no way I would be able to push that much weight with the same intensity within a single workout, no matter how strong I was.

For me, total body workouts have led to greater strength gains than splits.

I realize guys like Prof X laugh at someone my size, but I can only speak from my personal experience. I believe there are several reasons that I am not as big as them, but doing TBW instead of splits isn’t one of them.

45

[quote]forlife wrote:
doubleh wrote:
16 working sets for chest and back the same day - I’ll go ahead and throw out the term “impossible” to maintain intensity through 32 freakin’ sets. Which is why i was careful to explain that volume must be dropped, and frequncy subsequently increased, to reap the benefits of such a split.

I agree. I do at least 18 sets of chest/week, and always at the top of my workout with full strength. There is no way I would be able to push that much weight with the same intensity within a single workout, no matter how strong I was.

For me, total body workouts have led to greater strength gains than splits.

I realize guys like Prof X laugh at someone my size, but I can only speak from my personal experience. I believe there are several reasons that I am not as big as them, but doing TBW instead of splits isn’t one of them.[/quote]

No one is laughing at you.

46

Does anyone actually mind linking the research?

And if its with 180lb college kids I’m not really that interested.

47

i think this thread has become a good thing

I dont believe anyone is going to get huge on a TBW protocol. I think it is a well-played maneuver if returning to training from a prolonged absence, or if one’s schedule is erratic and, in which case, getting huge is not going to be easy

As far as Back/Chest, is not the only impeding factor CNS fatigue? assuming that one is properly fed and supplementing accordingly.

No doubt, if one has the fortitude to do back and chest and that split makes sense with their lifestyle, gains can be made.

But if one has reached an upper echelon of training where they can hit one muscle group with 20+ intense sets in a workout, as Prof X has, then training back with chest would be counterproductive

my chest is fatigued heavily after 16 sets, but I find I can still effectively fatigue my back

as I said I rotate between chest/back and chest/bis. i dont believe in solely training either one way or the other. i think it may help to switch it up

48

[quote]forlife wrote:
doubleh wrote:
16 working sets for chest and back the same day - I’ll go ahead and throw out the term “impossible” to maintain intensity through 32 freakin’ sets. Which is why i was careful to explain that volume must be dropped, and frequncy subsequently increased, to reap the benefits of such a split.

I agree. I do at least 18 sets of chest/week, and always at the top of my workout with full strength. There is no way I would be able to push that much weight with the same intensity within a single workout, no matter how strong I was.

For me, total body workouts have led to greater strength gains than splits.

I realize guys like Prof X laugh at someone my size, but I can only speak from my personal experience. I believe there are several reasons that I am not as big as them, but doing TBW instead of splits isn’t one of them.[/quote]

When I was doing TBW I found that the only way any muscle group was effectively fatigued was achieved by adding more sets to that bodypart and subtracting from other muscle group sets.

Essentially, I created a modified-split. is this something like you do with your TBW and if not, how do you find yourself effectively fatiguing the muscle groups you train?

For example, with chest do you bench one day, flye another or how do you allocate chest time?

49

[quote]Professor X wrote:
doubleh wrote:
Professor X wrote:
doubleh wrote:
Professor X wrote:
doubleh wrote:

Well, I do bench 400+ lbs, although sadly not for reps. But I am working on it.

Then you aren’t at the level of guys who DO lift that much for reps. I made that point because the strength level of someone who actually TRAINS with that much for several reps is far beyond that of the guy who has that as his one rep max.

Perhaps. No point in even arguing that line of reasoning, though. It’s not as if there’s some magic # you have to bench whereby it then becomes impossible to train back with the same intensity the same day. Fatigue and intensity are too subjective and vary too greatly person to person.

Incidentally, Professor, what is your bench 1RM these days?

I don’t do one rep maxes. I work out with 450lbs for 8 reps as my last set on flat bench hs presses. that is after doing two other exercises before that. I first hit 405lbs several years ago when I was training more like a powerlifter and was doing one rep maxes.

Ummm, Professor X… I also can rep 400+ on Hammer Strength bench. Comparing that to a barbell free weight bench is, well, there’s no comparison. I only do them rarely, but I just checked my journal and last time I did them I finished up with 430x5, also after 2 other exercises, which incidentally were free weight presses, not more machines. So we’re probably pretty close.

I knew I remembered you were mostly a machine guy.

The HS machine I use is different than most. It lies flat and there is NO counter weight. It is in my profile. It is nothing like the ones that sit upright. [/quote]

We’re not “friends” so I can’t see your profile, but the one at my gym sounds very similar, if not exactly the same. It’s the old-school version, lies flat, etc.

You know, I think you might be surprised were you to go back to free weights for a bit. Don’t underestimate the role taking stabalization out of the equation plays when using HS equipment. All I’m saying is, HS lifts don’t equate to free weight lifts.

To loop this all the way back to the relevant topic at hand, I think your prior suggestion that I am not advanced enough to know what I’m talking about re: chest and back the same day is without merit. I’m not saying your way of doing things is wrong, but we are probably pretty close development-wise, and I got there doing it a little differently.

50

[quote]Poetikaal wrote:
When I was doing TBW I found that the only way any muscle group was effectively fatigued was achieved by adding more sets to that bodypart and subtracting from other muscle group sets.

Essentially, I created a modified-split. is this something like you do with your TBW and if not, how do you find yourself effectively fatiguing the muscle groups you train?

For example, with chest do you bench one day, flye another or how do you allocate chest time?[/quote]

I add enough weight to my lifts so that I go to failure (or close to failure) on each set. I alternate chest routines each workout, so one day I may do flat bench with dumbells and the next day I do flyes. I find that doing so allows me to go max intensity with each workout, working the same muscle group in different ways.

51

[quote]forlife wrote:
doubleh wrote:

I agree. I do at least 18 sets of chest/week, and always at the top of my workout with full strength. There is no way I would be able to push that much weight with the same intensity within a single workout, no matter how strong I was. [/quote]

I assume you hit chest, back, bis, tris, shoulders, legs, lower back, and traps in one TBW session. So here’s the million-dollar question: can you maintain intensity for all of those bodyparts the entire session?

What Professor X said before, and I QFTed, is so true. There is NO way I could do chest, back, + anything else, much less squatting or deadlifting, in a single session, even cutting volume to 6 working sets like you said. When your working weights get to a certain level, big heavy compounds really drain you.

52

[quote]forlife wrote:
Poetikaal wrote:
?

I add enough weight to my lifts so that I go to failure (or close to failure) on each set. I alternate chest routines each workout, so one day I may do flat bench with dumbells and the next day I do flyes. I find that doing so allows me to go max intensity with each workout, working the same muscle group in different ways.[/quote]

And every set to failure?? Yup, NO way. See above post.

53

[quote]Professor X wrote:
No one is laughing at you.
[/quote]

I didn’t mean it in a negative sense, just that we are in very different leagues when it comes to the amount of weight we push in the gym.

On a positive note, I finally hit my goal of decline bench pressing 450 pounds. Unfortunately, I can only do half that on incline presses. And in both cases, it is on machines rather than free weights.

54

[quote]doubleh wrote:
I assume you hit chest, back, bis, tris, shoulders, legs, lower back, and traps in one TBW session. So here’s the million-dollar question: can you maintain intensity for all of those bodyparts the entire session?

What Professor X said before, and I QFTed, is so true. There is NO way I could do chest, back, + anything else, much less squatting or deadlifting, in a single session, even cutting volume to 6 working sets like you said. When your working weights get to a certain level, big heavy compounds really drain you.[/quote]

I usually only do 12 sets per workout, always including chest/back and working different muscle groups for the last 6 sets.

55

[quote]forlife wrote:
Poetikaal wrote:
When I was doing TBW I found that the only way any muscle group was effectively fatigued was achieved by adding more sets to that bodypart and subtracting from other muscle group sets. Essentially, I created a modified-split. is this something like you do with your TBW and if not, how do you find yourself effectively fatiguing the muscle groups you train?

For example, with chest do you bench one day, flye another or how do you allocate chest time?

I add enough weight to my lifts so that I go to failure (or close to failure) on each set. I alternate chest routines each workout, so one day I may do flat bench with dumbells and the next day I do flyes. I find that doing so allows me to go max intensity with each workout, working the same muscle group in different ways.[/quote]

do you believe that working the same muscle group in different ways in the same workout, for example, doing flat presses, incline flyes, decline presses and cable crossovers, may fatigue the muscle more effectively than spreading those same four exercises over four workouts?

i believe in frequency, but frequency second, volume first

56

[quote]doubleh wrote:

You know, I think you might be surprised were you to go back to free weights for a bit. Don’t underestimate the role taking stabalization out of the equation plays when using HS equipment. All I’m saying is, HS lifts don’t equate to free weight lifts.

To loop this all the way back to the relevant topic at hand, I think your prior suggestion that I am not advanced enough to know what I’m talking about re: chest and back the same day is without merit.

I’m not saying your way of doing things is wrong, but we are probably pretty close development-wise, and I got there doing it a little differently.
[/quote]

Guy, I used free weights for the majority of my training. I used dumbbells for several years after I quit doing the barbell bench press. My goal is not to see how much weight I can press on a barbell. It is to get stronger and bigger. The specific exercise is irrelevant. This is not powerlifting.

57

[quote]Poetikaal wrote:
do you believe that working the same muscle group in different ways in the same workout, for example, doing flat presses, incline flyes, decline presses and cable crossovers, may fatigue the muscle more effectively than spreading those same four exercises over four workouts?
[/quote]

I’ve tried both ways, and the latter works better for me. I can push more total weight with greater intensity when the lifts are spread across 5 days, rather than doing them all the same day.

58

i agree and know and believe i would be able to do the same, more weight+greater intensity if spread out.

however, if your goals are gaining size, is that still the most effective approach? after all, more total weight with greater intensity doesnt necessarily mean great size gains, though possibly greater strengthgains, if that is your primary concern

59

[quote]Poetikaal wrote:
however, if your goals are gaining size, is that still the most effective approach? after all, more total weight with greater intensity doesnt necessarily mean great size gains, though possibly greater strengthgains, if that is your primary concern
[/quote]

I really can’t say for size, since strength has been my goal. I’ve found that my strength has increased more from TBW than splits, but that’s just me.

60

in that case, surely it makes sense

if your goals ever change, consider splits

good luck