Work Advice

Bigger Stronger Leaner Over 35 Lifter
1

I wanted to post this in here, rather than in GAL as I’m interested in advice from those of you that have been in the workforce as long as I have. Maybe others have similar questions and I don’t think we have anything like this in here already.

I have my T-Nation persona and then my real life self. My real life self has 20 years of financial/project management experience. I have an MBA. I work for a Federal Government Agency and work on some high-level stuff. I’m not in the Defense or Spy industry and my Agency is pretty sleepy. I’ve previously worked in private industry and not-for-profits and have broad expericne.

i mention all of this with the hopes of painting a picture that I’ve dealt with all kinds of different problems and levels of stress and different management types.

I’m asking for advice on how to get out from underneath an incompetent boss.

I’ve been with my current employer for 8 years. About 3 years ago I was pulled out of my department and put on an assignment to help clean up some messes. When it was time to return, my department had been folded into another. I was moved into my current department and the rumor I was told was that the manager was incompetent and they were hoping I could fix things.

One year later the department has been largely turned around. I’m no superhero and the bar was set pretty low, but the manager I report to has gotten a large part of the credit. I am fine with that.

What I am not fine with is continuing to work for this guy. He’s disorganized, irrational and I am beginning to believe may actually have substance abuse issues. He is however very well liked by the head of our department (his boss, my 2nd in line to report to).

I explained to the head of our department when I took the assignment that I didn’t think my style and my boss’s style would mix well. When the head of the dept made clear to me it was not up to me to make the decision I got on board and said I would make it work. To my knowledge and belief the head thinks I am getting along great with my boss.

I gave my boss one year and have decided i am not willing to put up with him. In addition to incompetence I’ve discovered he’s a bully. Out of 5 co-workers I’m the only one to stand up to him. He’s passive aggressive so you have to really make his bullying an issue which is tough to do. I’ve caught myself lately just keeping quiet and I don’t really like seeing that happen and worry our relationship will get confrontational.

I have spoken with my manager twice over the past year and told him his management style is not appreciated and much like a battered spouse things get a little better until the next blowup.

I have been trying to use my connections to get moved to a different department.

Hopefully this paints a good picture without boring everyone to death.

My question I’m looking for advice on is do I go and talk with my Department Head and explain I’m not happy with my manager?

Any other advice is appreciated.

2

Sorry - no advice but I do have questions.

What do you think the Department Head will be able to do for you? Are you approaching him to help with your current situation or enlist his help getting a transfer?

Also, how long can you put up with your current situation before it gets unbearable? I don’t know about your current employer but an internal transfer can take a while to open up. If that is your goal, are you prepared to hang in there for a while.

3

I usually avoid handing out relationship or career advice so without being specific, a few personal opinions about work.

Work should be enjoyable, especially at our age. I’m too damn old to not enjoy my work. That includes the environment, co-workers, and management.

It’s always important to keep an active network of people who know the quality and quanitity of work you produce, and your personality/work behavior. These are the people who will help get you placed in the right spot.

If I’m ever dissatisfied with my work I figure out what I want, then seek out opportunities via my network.

It’s a real pleasure to work with folks who value you contributions, and really care. From co-workers to company management.

4

If you want a calm discussion with your boss’s boss, that’s fine, but if your boss really is a hothead, not much the other guy can do. You can’t change human nature. Asking for transfer sounds like the safest route.

Agreed we shouldn’t have to put up with it, but circumstances aren’t always kind. Not sure what the job situation is in Ireland, but here in the states still have unemployment problems, especially for old folks. Age discrimination is supposed to be illegal, but just try proving it. I’ve been very fortunate to be working for a wonderful boss. Lots of stories of guys in their 50s who move heaven and earth to find a new job and just get doors shut in their face. I wish you the best of luck.

5

I’m an idiot and confrontational and mean even violent especially to bullies. I won’t take crap for very long and sometimes that’s a weakness. That said I’ve found that the one good way for me to deal with such situations is to take full control. If you can eliminate something you can control it.

Sounds simplistic but…Is there a way for you to completely change your employment for the better? Is there a way to go for an equal or better position in an entirely new department? Could you find another position somewhere else?

Ask yourself questions and be flexible about how you plan to take action. Eliminate and move around this ass like he doesn’t exist. Make yourself independent and over him by being infallible.

My advice is given as to be taken as you see fit and this is what I practice. I’m my own kind of ass and I am by far not qualified to give anyone advice. One should not suffer a fool period. The biggest questions I ask myself all the time are,“Who am I, why am I, and what is my goal, as well as how will I get there.” I think our own inner talk matters much more than what anyone else speaks and the questions we ask ourselves guide our lives. Remember I’m an ass.

6

Sen Say,

As a now retired member of our Federal Government workforce (I worked at the SBA and VA after my military “career”) I think I may have some experience dealing with your (almost) exact type of situation. I will assume that you are one of the GS legion rather than the SES elite simply because they are well compensated and subsequently not deserving of any personal satisfaction while on the job.

I was a brand new GS-11 when I encountered the worst supervisor known to man, former Army (like me, which may be why I wasn’t fired), he was a hodge-podge of issues, an untreated but self-professed alcoholic/substance abuser that had become 'born again" after his 2nd wife left him, something that prompted him to stop drinking and drugging (but started him always inviting me to his church for 4 hours on Sunday) now while I don’t frown on any of these behaviors (I really have no particular hang-ups with what people do or don’t do) it made for a very unsettling workplace, one that resulted in the termination of several co-workers that didn’t pass his smell test (under 1 year on the job so they were pretty much disposable).

Needless to say life was not very pleasant in the office so I spent most of my time in the field with clients, coming in only when necessary. Several people lodged complaints, EAP/HR came down for some training, our boss was investigated but nothing ever happened. The biggest issue you will have with addressing this is that the Federal Government is more likely to reassign you than it is to fire or move him so unless you have some sort of damning evidence against him (unlikely) or unless he is creating a clearly hostile workplace (possibly) his supervisors are more than likely going to chalk it up to a personality conflict, one that you two will have to work out together.

I’m not sure where you are located and what agency you’re in but my advice would be to either look into telecommuting (the Federal Government seemed to be really pushing it when I left), moving to another department (if possible), self-medicating (always popular), “Horrible Bosses’” is an option as well (unless you are law enforcement in which case I am clearly joking), or just sitting down with him and letting him know how you feel and then trying to secretly record his psychosis on a smart phone. I wish I had better suggestions but in the one time I had to deal with this it ended badly.

7

Hey Sen,

i’ve been in a very similar situation, but in the private sector. Had a boss that was incompetent and i was a contract worker for him. He kept promising to hire me directly full time, but never did as he was afraid (with good reason) that i’d have his job within a year.

In the private sector i’d say you had a couple options;

1 - wait him out - If you liked your job and the organization you work for i’d say wait him out. people like him tend to burn themselves out of a job, one way or the other. Their incompetence and Sociopathic behavior can’t go unnoticed forever. his boss might be covering for him to enforce chain of command, but if he’s a good employee he can’t cover for your boss forever

2 - Get another job - Pretty self explanatory. find another job elsewhere or in your company.

I’ve never been a great fan of the going to his boss and saying “it’s him or me” plan. that never ends well.

This is all private sector perception. I’m pretty cut and dry when it comes to things like this. i think working for a place is a two way street. The company expects you to provide more worth than you cost them, and you expect to be compensated fairly for your time. if either of those don’t happen, the employment can be terminated by either side.

THat said, i think BrianHanson has a great governmental viewpoint.

La’

Redsol1

8

The good news is at least you have the weights as an outlet.

Ugh been there in 2001 and I still have nightmares about that fucking job. The only advice I can give is to make sure you document everything. So that if one of these days you ever find yourself in a spot/backed into a corner because of this boss you can present dates and facts of what is actually going on. That way you can talk your way through it dispassionately, either directly too him or whenever someone higher up decides to cop the fuck on.

9

I am also a MBA and I work for local government, so I understand your pain. Government moves slow and does not change very well. I would suggest a conversation with your supervisors’ boss and perhaps HR.

10

Thanks for the replies everyone. I’ll reply and add more later.

11

[quote]al38 wrote:
What do you think the Department Head will be able to do for you? Are you approaching him to help with your current situation or enlist his help getting a transfer? [/quote]

We’ve had a couple of managers retire or move in the past month…I was planning to send an email just saying I was interested in moving up in the department and to be kept in mind when and if they fill the 2 positions. Should a conversation/meeting come from this I would stay away from mentioning specifics regarding my current manager, but would try to find some way to explain we’re not a good fit.

I could manage indefinitely…I’ve actually had worse managers…I just found myself so frustrated when I made my original post that I threw it out there to you guys.

12

[quote]Oldman Powers wrote:
I usually avoid handing out relationship or career advice so without being specific, a few personal opinions about work.

Work should be enjoyable, especially at our age. I’m too damn old to not enjoy my work. That includes the environment, co-workers, and management. [/quote]

Agreed. The guy I report to does not get that…I honestly think he didn’t realize The Office was a comedy…the similarities to Michael Scott are sometimes unbelievable.

[quote]
It’s always important to keep an active network of people who know the quality and quanitity of work you produce, and your personality/work behavior. These are the people who will help get you placed in the right spot.

If I’m ever dissatisfied with my work I figure out what I want, then seek out opportunities via my network. [/quote]

Good advice. I’m working my network pretty aggressively. One reason I am looking to reach out to my Department Head is he helped me out and is a pretty good guy. I don’t think he knows I’m dissatified and believes I’m getting along well with my boss. I was told by someone in my Network that they asked about me coming to work with them and my Department Head told them ‘no’. I think he values me and must realize I saved this ass I’m working for. In wanting to talk with him I want to put him on alert basically that I’m his to lose.[/quote]

[quote]
It’s a real pleasure to work with folks who value you contributions, and really care. From co-workers to company management.[/quote]

Agreed. I would add it’s a real pleasure to work with folks who appreciate you telling them they’re full of shit in a respectful manner. Prior to my original post the garbage my boss told me to implement made so little sense, but I knew there was no way he would listen to me telling him he was off his rocker.

13

[quote]cavalier wrote:
If you want a calm discussion with your boss’s boss, that’s fine, but if your boss really is a hothead, not much the other guy can do. You can’t change human nature. Asking for transfer sounds like the safest route.

Agreed we shouldn’t have to put up with it, but circumstances aren’t always kind. Not sure what the job situation is in Ireland, but here in the states still have unemployment problems, especially for old folks. Age discrimination is supposed to be illegal, but just try proving it. I’ve been very fortunate to be working for a wonderful boss. Lots of stories of guys in their 50s who move heaven and earth to find a new job and just get doors shut in their face. I wish you the best of luck.[/quote]

Thanks Cav. Good advice.

I don’t actually live in Ireland, but the chicks on this site go crazy for my internet accent.

14

[quote]gorillavanilla wrote:
I’m an idiot and confrontational and mean even violent especially to bullies. I won’t take crap for very long and sometimes that’s a weakness. [/quote]

Same here. I haven’t been in this situation in the work force in 20 years and since how I handle this outside work could get me in trouble in work I’m concerned. I feel the blood start to boil and have called him on his behavior about 5 times in the past year. I’ve always done it respectfully and in private, but I don’t want to do something stupid.

[quote] That said I’ve found that the one good way for me to deal with such situations is to take full control. If you can eliminate something you can control it.

Sounds simplistic but…Is there a way for you to completely change your employment for the better? Is there a way to go for an equal or better position in an entirely new department? Could you find another position somewhere else?

Ask yourself questions and be flexible about how you plan to take action. Eliminate and move around this ass like he doesn’t exist. Make yourself independent and over him by being infallible. [/quote]

Good advice. He will leave me alone for several weeks at a time and I can take control and life is generally good. Then he comes up with some dumb ass idea to basically justify his existence and I get rubbed the wrong way. I hate to be one of those, “I’m too old for this shit” guys, but he had me working on documenting how I answer the phone a little while ago. I almost lost it when I took the time to write out how to answer the damn phone and he told me I missed the fist step…when I asked what that step was he said, “C’mon…think about it…” and stared at me for 30 seconds before I said “I give up” and he said “C’mon…you forgot someone has to place the call. That’s step 1 man!” ai yi yi…

Thanks GV. I appreciate it.

15

Government always has grievances that can be filed to really stir up the pot and get someone in the oven. Be specific about the jerk bothering you with exact date and time of incident as well as direct quotes and this can get results. You could use the system. This can be an effective solution however some might see it as underhanded or weak. Others might see as wise or shrewd way to get results. I meant to mention this before but I forgot. Imagine the row you would make if the grievance mentioned that this dick was bullying you and others. You know how hot the government is on bullying right now. Or, just punch him in the dick.

16

[quote]gorillavanilla wrote:
Government always has grievances that can be filed to really stir up the pot and get someone in the oven. Be specific about the jerk bothering you with exact date and time of incident as well as direct quotes and this can get results. You could use the system. This can be an effective solution however some might see it as underhanded or weak. Others might see as wise or shrewd way to get results. I meant to mention this before but I forgot. Imagine the row you would make if the grievance mentioned that this dick was bullying you and others. You know how hot the government is on bullying right now. Or, just punch him in the dick.[/quote]

If you go this route, keep a log of what happens. Note dates and places. Have details.

Keep the log secret, in case you change your mind later.

17

[quote]BrianHanson wrote:
Sen Say,

As a now retired member of our Federal Government workforce (I worked at the SBA and VA after my military “career”) I think I may have some experience dealing with your (almost) exact type of situation. I will assume that you are one of the GS legion rather than the SES elite simply because they are well compensated and subsequently not deserving of any personal satisfaction while on the job. [/quote]

My boss and I are both GS-14s. I’ve been a non-supervisory 14 for about 8 years and have zero to little interest in promotion to a 15 with added headaches, but my boss is hell-bent on ‘getting’ his 15. I’m guessing this could be the cause of some tension between us, but I’ve flatly told him I’m not interest in a 15. He’s paranoid, so I’m sure he didn’t believe me.

[quote]
I was a brand new GS-11 when I encountered the worst supervisor known to man, former Army (like me, which may be why I wasn’t fired), he was a hodge-podge of issues, an untreated but self-professed alcoholic/substance abuser that had become 'born again" after his 2nd wife left him, something that prompted him to stop drinking and drugging (but started him always inviting me to his church for 4 hours on Sunday) now while I don’t frown on any of these behaviors (I really have no particular hang-ups with what people do or don’t do) it made for a very unsettling workplace, one that resulted in the termination of several co-workers that didn’t pass his smell test (under 1 year on the job so they were pretty much disposable).

Needless to say life was not very pleasant in the office so I spent most of my time in the field with clients, coming in only when necessary. Several people lodged complaints, EAP/HR came down for some training, our boss was investigated but nothing ever happened. The biggest issue you will have with addressing this is that the Federal Government is more likely to reassign you than it is to fire or move him so unless you have some sort of damning evidence against him (unlikely) or unless he is creating a clearly hostile workplace (possibly) his supervisors are more than likely going to chalk it up to a personality conflict, one that you two will have to work out together.

I’m not sure where you are located and what agency you’re in but my advice would be to either look into telecommuting (the Federal Government seemed to be really pushing it when I left), moving to another department (if possible), self-medicating (always popular), “Horrible Bosses’” is an option as well (unless you are law enforcement in which case I am clearly joking), or just sitting down with him and letting him know how you feel and then trying to secretly record his psychosis on a smart phone. I wish I had better suggestions but in the one time I had to deal with this it ended badly.[/quote]

Glad you got out of that situation. Makes mine seem like a cake-walk. I tele-work 2 days a week which is good. Only downside is boss doesn’t telework and insinuates I’m hanging out by my pool when I’m teleworking and complains he can’t just ‘stop-by’ my desk when I’m teleworking. He likes to just ‘stop-by’ rather than email as I’m believing there’s no record of his actions this way.

18

[quote]redsol1 wrote:
I’ve never been a great fan of the going to his boss and saying “it’s him or me” plan. that never ends well.

[/quote]

Agreed. I had a similar situation back when I was 24, but with a co-worker not a manager. Went to our boss and explained the other guy’s behavior. Boss said we needed to settle it ourselves basically. Got the guy alone and asked him why he thought he could tell me what to do. He said the he ‘should’ be my boss so that’s how he was going to act. Was a very strange guy. We were both like making $10 bucks an hour coding accounts payables for a not-for-profit. Was definitely not a cut-throat company, but he acted like we were on Wall Street or some high powered lobbying firm on K Street.

That time worked out really well for me as he ended up leaving a few weeks later when he passed the CPA exam. I took over his responsibilities and it was discovered the extra 20 hours of OT he had been working were unnecessary. Belief was that he had been staying late and cracking the accounting books after everyone had left plus coming in Saturday and Sundays to ‘catch-up’ on some work, but really study for the CPA exam.

19

[quote]minimaltechno wrote:
The good news is at least you have the weights as an outlet.

Ugh been there in 2001 and I still have nightmares about that fucking job. The only advice I can give is to make sure you document everything. So that if one of these days you ever find yourself in a spot/backed into a corner because of this boss you can present dates and facts of what is actually going on. That way you can talk your way through it dispassionately, either directly too him or whenever someone higher up decides to cop the fuck on.
[/quote]

Good advice. I have some dates and times written down. It’s like a roller coaster ride…when he gets erratic enough that I start documenting stuff then within the next couple of days he apologizes…I sometimes call him on his shit, but it’s like an abusive spouse…you know he’s going to do something stupid again…I’ll see if I can post some of the stuff I’ve documented…in typical Sen fashion it becomes rather comical reading my description of his antics.

20

[quote]Crippler56 wrote:
I am also a MBA and I work for local government, so I understand your pain. Government moves slow and does not change very well. I would suggest a conversation with your supervisors’ boss and perhaps HR.[/quote]

I was actually in HR for about 18 months helping them with some new systems. I’ve stayed friends with a lot of staff there and was having lunch last week with one of them. She knows my boss and can’t stand him. It was at this lunch I found out HR had approached my Department Head about me coming back to help HR. Department Head told them that wasn’t happening which made me think he doesn’t want to lose me which kinda got me thinking I need to let him know I ain’t happy.