[quote]Mufasa wrote:
Related to the link…
Looks like EMS services are regulated on a LOT of levels, from Federal to Local.
Mufasa[/quote]
EMS services are amazingly regulated, on many levels.
[quote]DoubleDuce wrote:
Heck the majority of fire departments are organized, funded, and staffed directly by the people they protect. How is that not a free market solution?[/quote]
LOL
[quote]bigflamer wrote:
[quote]bald eagle wrote:
Here’s an idea - negotiate your own deal based on the market like a big boy or girl - if you don’t like it look somewhere else. It’s a big free country out there.
Why does anyone need some union to protect them - do your job and do it well and the rest will take care of itself. Only the lousy teachers and workers need the union to protect them. Employers don’t get rid of good and productive employees.
When you get hosed move on as soon as you can - don’t always expect big daddy government or big daddy union to come wipe your little bent out of shape nose. People are getting tired of this union baby bull crap.[/quote]
What happens when your job has no connection to the free market, like cops and firefighters?[/quote]
Why don’t they? A county or state says we pay x amount as a starting salary for our police officers and you are free choose whether or not that is a career path you want to choose. They obviously have to offer competitive wages in order to attract and keep quality talent - you would actually get better talent because their position would depend on their performance. They could not hide behind their union.
Why is all this such an issue - even FDR and the first president of the AFL-CIO were against public unions. Too much money and power influencing politicians.
Mufasa,
I think even hardcore Libertarians (but not anarchists) believe that police are among the core public goods that a government needs to provide. (FYI, they are police, courts, army and private property rights, as I recall.)
There is a new rule being proposed by the WI legislature (since no Dems are present, they can pass almost anything they want.) Senators must now be present (within the state of WI) to collect their paychecks. Yes, hit them where it hurts, their wallets.
[quote]bigflamer wrote:
[quote]DoubleDuce wrote:
[quote]bigflamer wrote:
DD, can I assume that you live in a very rural area? [/quote]
Unincorporated town with about 5 buildings downtown.
Volunteer fire, no town police.
But that isn’t so different from much of america.[/quote]
Ahh, I see. Rural areas generally have very small volunteer fire departments, which generally work out well for them. Here’s the thing, fire service is very much a local need, as in every community has their own unique requirements for an effective fire service. You simply cannot compare the fire service needs in your area, with a community that has vastly different needs for emergency services. In the state of Michigan, there are only three fire departments that are volunteer.
I can see now where you get your point of reference regarding fire service. Are you a member of the department?[/quote]
Isn’t that exactly what you are doing in reverse?
Yes, I recently became a member.
And my point of reference includes 2 fire departments including the one my dad volunteers for.
Both of these fire stations receive very little in the way of public funds. Most of the budgets come from donations and fundraisers.
My dad’s firehouse happens to produce some of the best bar-b-que I have ever tasted. Guys get together and get it done.
I was only maintaining that the free market has and does provide good fire protection to a lot of people. I never said that other models didn’t work other places.
[quote]DoubleDuce wrote:
I was only maintaining that the free market has and does provide good fire protection to a lot of people. I never said that other models didn’t work other places.[/quote]
Unfortunatley DD it does not, I don’t know how much research you’ve done in regards to the early days of the fire service. I know the movie “Gangs of New York” is loosely based on the fire service origins.
As for the volunteer agencies they are still funded at their base level by either the city budget or by having a fire district with an elected board. Taxes are collected albeit a nominal amount to pay for necessities (fuel, ems supply restock, member retainment).
[quote]lanchefan1 wrote:
[quote]DoubleDuce wrote:
I was only maintaining that the free market has and does provide good fire protection to a lot of people. I never said that other models didn’t work other places.[/quote]
Unfortunatley DD it does not, I don’t know how much research you’ve done in regards to the early days of the fire service. I know the movie “Gangs of New York” is loosely based on the fire service origins. If anybody would like to know further I can fill you in just don’t want to totally hijack the thread.
As for the volunteer agencies they are still funded at their base level by either the city budget or by having a fire district with an elected board. Taxes are collected albeit a nominal amount to pay for necessities (fuel, ems supply restock, member retainment).
[/quote]
Okay, so now you are claiming to know more about my own fire station than I do?
No, there are volunteer agencies established and funded at there base on private funds. Period.
[quote]Mufasa wrote:
Related to the link…
Looks like EMS services are regulated on a LOT of levels, from Federal to Local.
Mufasa[/quote]
Regulated yes. Enforced government run monopoly, no.
If you would trust a private hospital to take care of you once you are at the hospital, why would you not trust them to bring you there?
[quote]DoubleDuce wrote:
[quote]lanchefan1 wrote:
[quote]DoubleDuce wrote:
I was only maintaining that the free market has and does provide good fire protection to a lot of people. I never said that other models didn’t work other places.[/quote]
Unfortunatley DD it does not, I don’t know how much research you’ve done in regards to the early days of the fire service. I know the movie “Gangs of New York” is loosely based on the fire service origins. If anybody would like to know further I can fill you in just don’t want to totally hijack the thread.
As for the volunteer agencies they are still funded at their base level by either the city budget or by having a fire district with an elected board. Taxes are collected albeit a nominal amount to pay for necessities (fuel, ems supply restock, member retainment).
[/quote]
Okay, so now you are claiming to know more about my own fire station than I do?
No, there are volunteer agencies established and funded at there base on private funds. Period.[/quote]
My apologies DD your absoloutely correct some are privately funded and then they stand and watch a house burn to the ground over $75.
BTW this happened in Tennessee
[quote]lanchefan1 wrote:
[quote]DoubleDuce wrote:
[quote]lanchefan1 wrote:
[quote]DoubleDuce wrote:
I was only maintaining that the free market has and does provide good fire protection to a lot of people. I never said that other models didn’t work other places.[/quote]
Unfortunatley DD it does not, I don’t know how much research you’ve done in regards to the early days of the fire service. I know the movie “Gangs of New York” is loosely based on the fire service origins. If anybody would like to know further I can fill you in just don’t want to totally hijack the thread.
As for the volunteer agencies they are still funded at their base level by either the city budget or by having a fire district with an elected board. Taxes are collected albeit a nominal amount to pay for necessities (fuel, ems supply restock, member retainment).
[/quote]
Okay, so now you are claiming to know more about my own fire station than I do?
No, there are volunteer agencies established and funded at there base on private funds. Period.[/quote]
My apologies DD your absoloutely correct some are privately funded and then they stand and watch a house burn to the ground over $75.
BTW this happened in Tennessee
Actually, no, you’re just an ass.
First, they didn’t watch the house burn, they didn’t respond to a call outside their region. completely different.
Second, that house is much more publicly funded and has more full time “professional” paid firefighters than most rural ones.
I would even guess that the rules about pay for spray is probably part of the governmental bureaucracy there.
I would also like to bet you anything that had this been a full volunteer force where guys do it out of the goodness of their heart and a sense of community, they would have responded regardless.
So take you ignorant foot out of your ignorant mouth and just keep it closed.
Yup, the pay for spray thing was apparently a city ordinance set forth by the town’s government. Now, don’t you feel stupid?
“…Jeff Vowell, the city manager for South Fulton, TN. In defense of the actions of his fire department, he stated that, “…we have to follow the rules and the ordinances set forth to us, and that’s exactly what we do.””
[quote]DoubleDuce wrote:
[quote]lanchefan1 wrote:
[quote]DoubleDuce wrote:
[quote]lanchefan1 wrote:
[quote]DoubleDuce wrote:
I was only maintaining that the free market has and does provide good fire protection to a lot of people. I never said that other models didn’t work other places.[/quote]
Unfortunatley DD it does not, I don’t know how much research you’ve done in regards to the early days of the fire service. I know the movie “Gangs of New York” is loosely based on the fire service origins. If anybody would like to know further I can fill you in just don’t want to totally hijack the thread.
As for the volunteer agencies they are still funded at their base level by either the city budget or by having a fire district with an elected board. Taxes are collected albeit a nominal amount to pay for necessities (fuel, ems supply restock, member retainment).
[/quote]
Okay, so now you are claiming to know more about my own fire station than I do?
No, there are volunteer agencies established and funded at there base on private funds. Period.[/quote]
My apologies DD your absoloutely correct some are privately funded and then they stand and watch a house burn to the ground over $75.
BTW this happened in Tennessee
Actually, no, you’re just an ass.
First, they didn’t watch the house burn, they didn’t respond to a call outside their region. completely different.
Second, that house is much more publicly funded and has more full time “professional” paid firefighters than most rural ones.
I would even guess that the rules about pay for spray is probably part of the governmental bureaucracy there.
I would also like to bet you anything that had this been a full volunteer force where guys do it out of the goodness of their heart and a sense of community, they would have responded regardless.
So take you ignorant foot out of your ignorant mouth and just keep it closed.[/quote]
Wow DD resorting to the strawman?
First, they did respond the neihbor had paid his $75 the put out a grass fire in his field.
Second, which house are you talking about? The house that burned down or the South Fulton Firehoue?
You win that bet they are a volunteer force of 19.
I’m not trying to disrepect you (name calling), just merely having a discussion.
Edit: For some light reading here is the Olbion County Fire Deparment Agreement (which South Fulton falls under) dated March 18, 2008
http://troy.troytn.com/Obion%20County%20Fire%20Department%20Presentation%20Presented%20to%20the%20County%20Commission.pdf
[quote]DoubleDuce wrote:
[quote]Mufasa wrote:
Related to the link…
Looks like EMS services are regulated on a LOT of levels, from Federal to Local.
Mufasa[/quote]
Regulated yes. Enforced government run monopoly, no.
If you would trust a private hospital to take care of you once you are at the hospital, why would you not trust them to bring you there?[/quote]
hah there are a lot of fire departments in southern california, if you do not work for the city’s emt contractor, you cant get a job as a firefighter. if you work in any other emt service, outta luck.
[quote]DoubleDuce wrote:
Yup, the pay for spray thing was apparently a city ordinance set forth by the town’s government. Now, don’t you feel stupid?
“…Jeff Vowell, the city manager for South Fulton, TN. In defense of the actions of his fire department, he stated that, “…we have to follow the rules and the ordinances set forth to us, and that’s exactly what we do.””[/quote]
so much for the volunteer state, sounds like its full of cowards to me.
[quote]PB-Crawl wrote:
[quote]DoubleDuce wrote:
Yup, the pay for spray thing was apparently a city ordinance set forth by the town’s government. Now, don’t you feel stupid?
“…Jeff Vowell, the city manager for South Fulton, TN. In defense of the actions of his fire department, he stated that, “…we have to follow the rules and the ordinances set forth to us, and that’s exactly what we do.””[/quote]
so much for the volunteer state, sounds like its full of cowards to me.[/quote]
You Californians crack me up sometimes.
[quote]PB-Crawl wrote:
[quote]DoubleDuce wrote:
[quote]Mufasa wrote:
Related to the link…
Looks like EMS services are regulated on a LOT of levels, from Federal to Local.
Mufasa[/quote]
Regulated yes. Enforced government run monopoly, no.
If you would trust a private hospital to take care of you once you are at the hospital, why would you not trust them to bring you there?[/quote]
hah there are a lot of fire departments in southern california, if you do not work for the city’s emt contractor, you cant get a job as a firefighter. if you work in any other emt service, outta luck.[/quote]
Yeah, but that’s california.
[quote]lanchefan1 wrote:
[quote]DoubleDuce wrote:
[quote]lanchefan1 wrote:
[quote]DoubleDuce wrote:
[quote]lanchefan1 wrote:
[quote]DoubleDuce wrote:
I was only maintaining that the free market has and does provide good fire protection to a lot of people. I never said that other models didn’t work other places.[/quote]
Unfortunatley DD it does not, I don’t know how much research you’ve done in regards to the early days of the fire service. I know the movie “Gangs of New York” is loosely based on the fire service origins. If anybody would like to know further I can fill you in just don’t want to totally hijack the thread.
As for the volunteer agencies they are still funded at their base level by either the city budget or by having a fire district with an elected board. Taxes are collected albeit a nominal amount to pay for necessities (fuel, ems supply restock, member retainment).
[/quote]
Okay, so now you are claiming to know more about my own fire station than I do?
No, there are volunteer agencies established and funded at there base on private funds. Period.[/quote]
My apologies DD your absoloutely correct some are privately funded and then they stand and watch a house burn to the ground over $75.
BTW this happened in Tennessee
Actually, no, you’re just an ass.
First, they didn’t watch the house burn, they didn’t respond to a call outside their region. completely different.
Second, that house is much more publicly funded and has more full time “professional” paid firefighters than most rural ones.
I would even guess that the rules about pay for spray is probably part of the governmental bureaucracy there.
I would also like to bet you anything that had this been a full volunteer force where guys do it out of the goodness of their heart and a sense of community, they would have responded regardless.
So take you ignorant foot out of your ignorant mouth and just keep it closed.[/quote]
Wow DD resorting to the strawman?
First, they did respond the neihbor had paid his $75 the put out a grass fire in his field.
Second, which house are you talking about? The house that burned down or the South Fulton Firehoue?
You win that bet they are a volunteer force of 19.
I’m not trying to disrepect you (name calling), just merely having a discussion.
Edit: For some light reading here is the Olbion County Fire Deparment Agreement (which South Fulton falls under) dated March 18, 2008
http://troy.troytn.com/Obion%20County%20Fire%20Department%20Presentation%20Presented%20to%20the%20County%20Commission.pdf[/quote]
No strawman, you stated that it was privately funded and that they watched the house burn. Neither of those are true and the financial guidelines that resulted in the non-response was a government decision.
The rest of it wasn’t in any way attributed to you. I was just noting that your claim was BS because it was the government control that cause the situation.
Some of you guys are so dead set that anything private and free market is evil, when the truth is that something this stupid and heartless reeks of bureaucracy. You guys are so dead set against it that you will blame privatization for something that was a city ordinance. That’s just dumb.
This case is a much better example of some of the problems caused by government control.
It’s much the same way I feel about health care. The government can mandate health coverage. But people forget that coverage does not always equal care and certainly not quality care. The government isn’t and cannot increase the number of doctors and services available it’s a limited commodity. Everyone having coverage cannot mathematically increase the amount of service rendered. People forget that current government coverage has the highest rate of denied claims.
Things like fire coverage are the same way. Just because the government takes responsibility for the service does mean that you are protected. This case where a fire department refused a call because of a city budget battle is proof of that. Governments are every bit as capable of heartless decisions and much more capable of incompetence than any private company.
But I digress, this has gotten so far off topic.