Wisconsin Heating Up

orion · February 20, 2011, 10:54pm

[quote]pittbulll wrote:

[quote]orion wrote:

[quote]pittbulll wrote:

[quote]orion wrote:

[quote]pittbulll wrote:

[quote]MaximusB wrote:
Sento,

I hear you man, but WI has a $3 BILLION deficit, and you want to yell about $140 million? I agree that if that money is in fact spent on some bullshit, then it should be addressed. But you are talking ridiculously unfunded pension liabilities, they would still be paying LESS THAN HALF what the private sector pays. The average government worker makes $89k/year (which includes pension, benefits, etc.) Average private sector worker makes $61k/year. The pension/benefit package for gov’t workers is nearly 3 times better than that of the private sector and pay a shit ton less into it. And consider this, who pays for these pension/bennies? Taxpayers. And it is a wonder why this shit would go under so quickly.[/quote]

This is the good side of Unions , the Private sector should unionize. Then they could quit pissing and moanning about the money THEY are not making, just a different angle[/quote]

How could they stop “pissing and moanning about the money THEY are not making” when they are unemployed?

[/quote]

you will have to explain this to me , no you won’t I know you disagree but your statement is not factual , it is just an opinion of a percentage of the population
[/quote]

My non-factual opinion is that entrepreneurs are combining factors of production to be as productive as possible.

If one factor, say human labor, becomes too expensive you substitute it with another, say, machines.

[/quote]

That is progress, no argument here [/quote]

Yup, but that progress either happens through the accumulation of capital goods or because unions say so.

In the latter case, those in will have a better job, at least until mean meanies remove trade barriers and they are fucked, but everyone else will have a hard time finding a job.

pittbulll · February 21, 2011, 1:05am

[quote]orion wrote:

[quote]pittbulll wrote:

[quote]orion wrote:

[quote]pittbulll wrote:

[quote]orion wrote:

[quote]pittbulll wrote:

[quote]MaximusB wrote:
Sento,

I hear you man, but WI has a $3 BILLION deficit, and you want to yell about $140 million? I agree that if that money is in fact spent on some bullshit, then it should be addressed. But you are talking ridiculously unfunded pension liabilities, they would still be paying LESS THAN HALF what the private sector pays. The average government worker makes $89k/year (which includes pension, benefits, etc.) Average private sector worker makes $61k/year. The pension/benefit package for gov’t workers is nearly 3 times better than that of the private sector and pay a shit ton less into it. And consider this, who pays for these pension/bennies? Taxpayers. And it is a wonder why this shit would go under so quickly.[/quote]

This is the good side of Unions , the Private sector should unionize. Then they could quit pissing and moanning about the money THEY are not making, just a different angle[/quote]

How could they stop “pissing and moanning about the money THEY are not making” when they are unemployed?

[/quote]

you will have to explain this to me , no you won’t I know you disagree but your statement is not factual , it is just an opinion of a percentage of the population
[/quote]

My non-factual opinion is that entrepreneurs are combining factors of production to be as productive as possible.

If one factor, say human labor, becomes too expensive you substitute it with another, say, machines.

[/quote]

That is progress, no argument here [/quote]

Yup, but that progress either happens through the accumulation of capital goods or because unions say so.

In the latter case, those in will have a better job, at least until mean meanies remove trade barriers and they are fucked, but everyone else will have a hard time finding a job.

[/quote]

I agree the Union has it’s down side but increasing labor’s pay is not one of them

orion · February 21, 2011, 1:28am

[quote]pittbulll wrote:

[quote]orion wrote:

[quote]pittbulll wrote:

[quote]orion wrote:

[quote]pittbulll wrote:

[quote]orion wrote:

[quote]pittbulll wrote:

[quote]MaximusB wrote:
Sento,

I hear you man, but WI has a $3 BILLION deficit, and you want to yell about $140 million? I agree that if that money is in fact spent on some bullshit, then it should be addressed. But you are talking ridiculously unfunded pension liabilities, they would still be paying LESS THAN HALF what the private sector pays. The average government worker makes $89k/year (which includes pension, benefits, etc.) Average private sector worker makes $61k/year. The pension/benefit package for gov’t workers is nearly 3 times better than that of the private sector and pay a shit ton less into it. And consider this, who pays for these pension/bennies? Taxpayers. And it is a wonder why this shit would go under so quickly.[/quote]

This is the good side of Unions , the Private sector should unionize. Then they could quit pissing and moanning about the money THEY are not making, just a different angle[/quote]

How could they stop “pissing and moanning about the money THEY are not making” when they are unemployed?

[/quote]

you will have to explain this to me , no you won’t I know you disagree but your statement is not factual , it is just an opinion of a percentage of the population
[/quote]

My non-factual opinion is that entrepreneurs are combining factors of production to be as productive as possible.

If one factor, say human labor, becomes too expensive you substitute it with another, say, machines.

[/quote]

That is progress, no argument here [/quote]

Yup, but that progress either happens through the accumulation of capital goods or because unions say so.

In the latter case, those in will have a better job, at least until mean meanies remove trade barriers and they are fucked, but everyone else will have a hard time finding a job.

[/quote]

I agree the Union has it’s down side but increasing labor’s pay is not one of them[/quote]

Really?

What part of “if price goes up demand goes down” is too hard to understand?

bald_eagle1 · February 21, 2011, 1:48am

[quote]Kansky wrote:
Who said that the teacher’s union was not interested in concessions? Yesterday I was in Madison, with fellow union members, and talked to people on both sides of the argument, while the Pass the Bill crowd is correct that there is absololutely no way that the state could continue to operate the way things are, they are incorrect that the teachers refused to accept that. I talked to a member of the teacher’s union who said after Walker took office last year the President of the union called and sent many letters trying to begin talks early knowing they would be concessionary, however, Walker never called back or acknowledged the union existed, which is an unfair labor/bargaining practice. Also when the news, it doesn’t matter which one, reports that the teacher’s would have to contribute more to their healthcare, they never bring up the past practice of many unions, such as the Wisconsin Teachers Union, not taking pay raises in lieu of keeping their healthcare costs down.

It is interesting how many feel that unions are useless, what is your argument? Do you really feel that corparations or even states for that matter are good people and would pay a decent wage? I am a private sector union, locomotive engineer, and I have seen first hand what it is like to be non-union, and the protection and security you get when you are organized are worth the dues I have to pay every month. [/quote]

My argument - Hey if you don’t think your boss is fair this is a free country - go work for someone else. I own a business with multimillion dollar equipment - my name and my brother’s name is on those notes - no one elses. Our employees could leave at any time and go somewhere else - leaving us high and dry. It is in our interest to pay a competitive wage. But it should be our choice whether we want to join the union or not - it is our business - we own it and no one else. Our signatures guarantee everything - no one elses. We take 100% of the risks and yet some malcontents can come in and organize us. What kind of horsecrap is that.

How much skin do you have in the game - if the company you work for hits hard times - are you on the hook for any debt?? One guy can screw up and hurt or kill someone or destroy equipment and we pay the financial price - no one else.

What good are unions?? All they do is pump crap into people’s heads about how the boss or the rich evil corporation is screwing them and owes them more. It they see their boss driving an expensive car the mentality in the union is “that piece of crap can pay me more if he can afford that car.” They never think about that whole “risk factor” thing he lives with.

How attractive do you think it is to go out and borrow money to buy equipment and then put up with bullcrap regulations and union antics?

You can’t be pro jobs without being pro business.

MaximusB · February 21, 2011, 4:01am

[quote]Kansky wrote:
Who said that the teacher’s union was not interested in concessions? Yesterday I was in Madison, with fellow union members, and talked to people on both sides of the argument, while the Pass the Bill crowd is correct that there is absololutely no way that the state could continue to operate the way things are, they are incorrect that the teachers refused to accept that. I talked to a member of the teacher’s union who said after Walker took office last year the President of the union called and sent many letters trying to begin talks early knowing they would be concessionary, however, Walker never called back or acknowledged the union existed, which is an unfair labor/bargaining practice. Also when the news, it doesn’t matter which one, reports that the teacher’s would have to contribute more to their healthcare, they never bring up the past practice of many unions, such as the Wisconsin Teachers Union, not taking pay raises in lieu of keeping their healthcare costs down.

It is interesting how many feel that unions are useless, what is your argument? Do you really feel that corparations or even states for that matter are good people and would pay a decent wage? I am a private sector union, locomotive engineer, and I have seen first hand what it is like to be non-union, and the protection and security you get when you are organized are worth the dues I have to pay every month. [/quote]

Unions are unwilling to adjust their benefits/pension to the status of the economy. This is what happened here. When the economy took a dump, unions pushed for more and more while the private sector got hammered with taxes and unemployment. The straw finally broke the camel’s back. You could not sustain this indefinitely. Kicking the can down the road has led to “no more road left.” Not to mention, the can has become fucking huge.

Union member could argue their first amendment rights are being violated by being forced to join a union, and having their union dues go to fund a particular candidate that they do not agree with. Why should someone HAVE to join a union? Why should unions be allowed to fund whichever candidate will enact their cause (and this goes for Republicans too)?

Why should my tax dollars be used to pay for unions who lobby for a candidate I disagree with? With my tax money of all things? Comedic fucking irony man !

pittbulll · February 21, 2011, 4:47am

[quote]orion wrote:

[quote]pittbulll wrote:

[quote]orion wrote:

[quote]pittbulll wrote:

[quote]orion wrote:

[quote]pittbulll wrote:

[quote]orion wrote:

[quote]pittbulll wrote:

[quote]MaximusB wrote:
Sento,

I hear you man, but WI has a $3 BILLION deficit, and you want to yell about $140 million? I agree that if that money is in fact spent on some bullshit, then it should be addressed. But you are talking ridiculously unfunded pension liabilities, they would still be paying LESS THAN HALF what the private sector pays. The average government worker makes $89k/year (which includes pension, benefits, etc.) Average private sector worker makes $61k/year. The pension/benefit package for gov’t workers is nearly 3 times better than that of the private sector and pay a shit ton less into it. And consider this, who pays for these pension/bennies? Taxpayers. And it is a wonder why this shit would go under so quickly.[/quote]

This is the good side of Unions , the Private sector should unionize. Then they could quit pissing and moanning about the money THEY are not making, just a different angle[/quote]

How could they stop “pissing and moanning about the money THEY are not making” when they are unemployed?

[/quote]

you will have to explain this to me , no you won’t I know you disagree but your statement is not factual , it is just an opinion of a percentage of the population
[/quote]

My non-factual opinion is that entrepreneurs are combining factors of production to be as productive as possible.

If one factor, say human labor, becomes too expensive you substitute it with another, say, machines.

[/quote]

That is progress, no argument here [/quote]

Yup, but that progress either happens through the accumulation of capital goods or because unions say so.

In the latter case, those in will have a better job, at least until mean meanies remove trade barriers and they are fucked, but everyone else will have a hard time finding a job.

[/quote]

I agree the Union has it’s down side but increasing labor’s pay is not one of them[/quote]

Really?

What part of “if price goes up demand goes down” is too hard to understand?

[/quote]

This is where the supply side economics split with supply and demand.

Demand will probably not go down because every one is working and every one can afford the goods , problem is that more make money than the company , OH that is not a problem

MaximusB · February 21, 2011, 3:56pm

I think another problem is that unions seem to think that “everyone not in a union” is some kind of CEO.

This is another tactic the left loves to use. To all you union peeps who think everyone else is rich, in California, you are considered “rich” (according to the tax code) if you make $47k/year or more. So when taxes go up “on the rich,” you have alot more of middle class people paying for it. I don’t know what those numbers are for Wisconsin, but I cannot imagine it’s much different. Then when union people scream that corporations should be taxes more, guess what they do? They move. Yes, we have had so much industry leave for states that are much more tax friendly (NC, TN, TX, NV, FL). Shit, we lost Apple to North Carolina, where there is no state income tax. How could someone let that gem leave ?!

pittbulll · February 21, 2011, 4:03pm

I personally think Corporations should be tax exempt, but there should be NO SHELTERS left for executives to hide their money

ReignIB · February 21, 2011, 6:51pm

Public sector unions should be eliminated.
My taxes pay their salary and they feel they have a right to tell me how much they should be making ?
Don’t think so.

LIFTICVSMAXIMVS · February 21, 2011, 6:56pm

[quote]pittbulll wrote:
I personally think Corporations should be tax exempt, but there should be NO SHELTERS left for executives to hide their money[/quote]

Why not just remove the income tax altogether for everyone?

Why should corporations have special privileges that an individual cannot have?

Mathematically, don’t you think a small consumption tax would be better – i.e., increase revenue for the gubbamint?

orion · February 21, 2011, 7:46pm

[quote]pittbulll wrote:

[quote]orion wrote:

[quote]pittbulll wrote:

[quote]orion wrote:

[quote]pittbulll wrote:

[quote]orion wrote:

[quote]pittbulll wrote:

[quote]orion wrote:

[quote]pittbulll wrote:

[quote]MaximusB wrote:
Sento,

I hear you man, but WI has a $3 BILLION deficit, and you want to yell about $140 million? I agree that if that money is in fact spent on some bullshit, then it should be addressed. But you are talking ridiculously unfunded pension liabilities, they would still be paying LESS THAN HALF what the private sector pays. The average government worker makes $89k/year (which includes pension, benefits, etc.) Average private sector worker makes $61k/year. The pension/benefit package for gov’t workers is nearly 3 times better than that of the private sector and pay a shit ton less into it. And consider this, who pays for these pension/bennies? Taxpayers. And it is a wonder why this shit would go under so quickly.[/quote]

This is the good side of Unions , the Private sector should unionize. Then they could quit pissing and moanning about the money THEY are not making, just a different angle[/quote]

How could they stop “pissing and moanning about the money THEY are not making” when they are unemployed?

[/quote]

you will have to explain this to me , no you won’t I know you disagree but your statement is not factual , it is just an opinion of a percentage of the population
[/quote]

My non-factual opinion is that entrepreneurs are combining factors of production to be as productive as possible.

If one factor, say human labor, becomes too expensive you substitute it with another, say, machines.

[/quote]

That is progress, no argument here [/quote]

Yup, but that progress either happens through the accumulation of capital goods or because unions say so.

In the latter case, those in will have a better job, at least until mean meanies remove trade barriers and they are fucked, but everyone else will have a hard time finding a job.

[/quote]

I agree the Union has it’s down side but increasing labor’s pay is not one of them[/quote]

Really?

What part of “if price goes up demand goes down” is too hard to understand?

[/quote]

This is where the supply side economics split with supply and demand.

Demand will probably not go down because every one is working and every one can afford the goods , problem is that more make money than the company , OH that is not a problem[/quote]

Yeah well, there are around 2,5 billion Indian and Chinese who would spoil that plan, but otherwise its perfect.

Kansky · February 21, 2011, 7:39pm

[quote]bald eagle wrote:

[quote]Kansky wrote:
Who said that the teacher’s union was not interested in concessions? Yesterday I was in Madison, with fellow union members, and talked to people on both sides of the argument, while the Pass the Bill crowd is correct that there is absololutely no way that the state could continue to operate the way things are, they are incorrect that the teachers refused to accept that. I talked to a member of the teacher’s union who said after Walker took office last year the President of the union called and sent many letters trying to begin talks early knowing they would be concessionary, however, Walker never called back or acknowledged the union existed, which is an unfair labor/bargaining practice. Also when the news, it doesn’t matter which one, reports that the teacher’s would have to contribute more to their healthcare, they never bring up the past practice of many unions, such as the Wisconsin Teachers Union, not taking pay raises in lieu of keeping their healthcare costs down.

It is interesting how many feel that unions are useless, what is your argument? Do you really feel that corparations or even states for that matter are good people and would pay a decent wage? I am a private sector union, locomotive engineer, and I have seen first hand what it is like to be non-union, and the protection and security you get when you are organized are worth the dues I have to pay every month. [/quote]

My argument - Hey if you don’t think your boss is fair this is a free country - go work for someone else. I own a business with multimillion dollar equipment - my name and my brother’s name is on those notes - no one elses. Our employees could leave at any time and go somewhere else - leaving us high and dry. It is in our interest to pay a competitive wage. But it should be our choice whether we want to join the union or not - it is our business - we own it and no one else. Our signatures guarantee everything - no one elses. We take 100% of the risks and yet some malcontents can come in and organize us. What kind of horsecrap is that.

How much skin do you have in the game - if the company you work for hits hard times - are you on the hook for any debt?? One guy can screw up and hurt or kill someone or destroy equipment and we pay the financial price - no one else.

What good are unions?? All they do is pump crap into people’s heads about how the boss or the rich evil corporation is screwing them and owes them more. It they see their boss driving an expensive car the mentality in the union is “that piece of crap can pay me more if he can afford that car.” They never think about that whole “risk factor” thing he lives with.

How attractive do you think it is to go out and borrow money to buy equipment and then put up with bullcrap regulations and union antics?

You can’t be pro jobs without being pro business.[/quote]

You are talking about something completely different, you are trying to relate a small business setting, to which I agree that a union is not in the best interest of the company, however, when you are talking about a state that is trying to employ teachers for a public school system, there is no room to be competitive on wages. Referring to the situation in Wisconsin, what risk is the state taking? Are they in danger of producing dumb children and somehow the world will sue them for it? The point is to keep good teachers around and set up a system where the shit teachers are dismissed, when I was in high school our teachers were paid well, top 15% in Illinois starting pay, but if they didn’t show that they could keep kids at an acceptable level, they were given walking papers.

pittbulll · February 21, 2011, 7:52pm

[quote]LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:

[quote]pittbulll wrote:
I personally think Corporations should be tax exempt, but there should be NO SHELTERS left for executives to hide their money[/quote]

Why not just remove the income tax altogether for everyone?

Why should corporations have special privileges that an individual cannot have?

Mathematically, don’t you think a small consumption tax would be better – i.e., increase revenue for the gubbamint?[/quote]

Some one has to pay for the services we enjoy, i know you do not want Roads schools , cops ,fire service. And it is a Tyranny that forces you to pay for these services. Sorry

Kansky · February 21, 2011, 7:54pm

[quote]MaximusB wrote:

[quote]Kansky wrote:
Who said that the teacher’s union was not interested in concessions? Yesterday I was in Madison, with fellow union members, and talked to people on both sides of the argument, while the Pass the Bill crowd is correct that there is absololutely no way that the state could continue to operate the way things are, they are incorrect that the teachers refused to accept that. I talked to a member of the teacher’s union who said after Walker took office last year the President of the union called and sent many letters trying to begin talks early knowing they would be concessionary, however, Walker never called back or acknowledged the union existed, which is an unfair labor/bargaining practice. Also when the news, it doesn’t matter which one, reports that the teacher’s would have to contribute more to their healthcare, they never bring up the past practice of many unions, such as the Wisconsin Teachers Union, not taking pay raises in lieu of keeping their healthcare costs down.

It is interesting how many feel that unions are useless, what is your argument? Do you really feel that corparations or even states for that matter are good people and would pay a decent wage? I am a private sector union, locomotive engineer, and I have seen first hand what it is like to be non-union, and the protection and security you get when you are organized are worth the dues I have to pay every month. [/quote]

Unions are unwilling to adjust their benefits/pension to the status of the economy. This is what happened here. When the economy took a dump, unions pushed for more and more while the private sector got hammered with taxes and unemployment. The straw finally broke the camel’s back. You could not sustain this indefinitely. Kicking the can down the road has led to “no more road left.” Not to mention, the can has become fucking huge.

Union member could argue their first amendment rights are being violated by being forced to join a union, and having their union dues go to fund a particular candidate that they do not agree with. Why should someone HAVE to join a union? Why should unions be allowed to fund whichever candidate will enact their cause (and this goes for Republicans too)?

Why should my tax dollars be used to pay for unions who lobby for a candidate I disagree with? With my tax money of all things? Comedic fucking irony man ![/quote]

You say that the Unions were unwilling to give concessions due to the economy, what union? Where? This teacher’s union was/is willing to pay more for healthcare and contribute more to their retirement, but through the proper channels of bargaining.

Also these teachers do not have to be in a union, any public sector employee can choose to be a “No Bill,” and when a person is a member they also have the right to refuse to allow any of their dues money to go to political causes, and what is wrong with a union backing a candidate? Don’t companies and private citizens do this as well?

I guess your last argument is really just how you look at it, yes, the teachers are paid with tax dollars and their dues may be used to back a certain candidate that you don’t agree with, but what if you shop somewhere, say WalMart, and they go out and back a candidate you disagree with, using YOUR money, do you also have a right to say they shouldn’t be allowed to do that? Sorry these teachers are employees, not indentured servants, they are allowed to do what they choose with the money they earned.

pittbulll · February 21, 2011, 8:04pm

[quote]bald eagle wrote:

[quote]Kansky wrote:
Who said that the teacher’s union was not interested in concessions? Yesterday I was in Madison, with fellow union members, and talked to people on both sides of the argument, while the Pass the Bill crowd is correct that there is absololutely no way that the state could continue to operate the way things are, they are incorrect that the teachers refused to accept that. I talked to a member of the teacher’s union who said after Walker took office last year the President of the union called and sent many letters trying to begin talks early knowing they would be concessionary, however, Walker never called back or acknowledged the union existed, which is an unfair labor/bargaining practice. Also when the news, it doesn’t matter which one, reports that the teacher’s would have to contribute more to their healthcare, they never bring up the past practice of many unions, such as the Wisconsin Teachers Union, not taking pay raises in lieu of keeping their healthcare costs down.

It is interesting how many feel that unions are useless, what is your argument? Do you really feel that corparations or even states for that matter are good people and would pay a decent wage? I am a private sector union, locomotive engineer, and I have seen first hand what it is like to be non-union, and the protection and security you get when you are organized are worth the dues I have to pay every month. [/quote]

My argument - Hey if you don’t think your boss is fair this is a free country - go work for someone else. I own a business with multimillion dollar equipment - my name and my brother’s name is on those notes - no one elses. Our employees could leave at any time and go somewhere else - leaving us high and dry. It is in our interest to pay a competitive wage. But it should be our choice whether we want to join the union or not - it is our business - we own it and no one else. Our signatures guarantee everything - no one elses. We take 100% of the risks and yet some malcontents can come in and organize us. What kind of horsecrap is that.

How much skin do you have in the game - if the company you work for hits hard times - are you on the hook for any debt?? One guy can screw up and hurt or kill someone or destroy equipment and we pay the financial price - no one else.

What good are unions?? All they do is pump crap into people’s heads about how the boss or the rich evil corporation is screwing them and owes them more. It they see their boss driving an expensive car the mentality in the union is “that piece of crap can pay me more if he can afford that car.” They never think about that whole “risk factor” thing he lives with.

How attractive do you think it is to go out and borrow money to buy equipment and then put up with bullcrap regulations and union antics?

You can’t be pro jobs without being pro business.[/quote]

You truly have a dog in the fight, and if all employers were fair with workers , there would be no need for a union . I just went back to work in a big old dirty industry. The Company has fucked me out of money every turn that was available to them , if it was a verbal agreement that was not in writing , it was just that “not in writing” I will stay with them until I get a new job, but I expect the next one to be some what like it’s competition.

Two generations ago this industry was heavily Union now you are hired with (not promised income} but an inferred promise.Wages right now are maybe a third of what was inferred

People today do not have the balls to unionize.

LIFTICVSMAXIMVS · February 21, 2011, 8:06pm

[quote]pittbulll wrote:

[quote]LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:

[quote]pittbulll wrote:
I personally think Corporations should be tax exempt, but there should be NO SHELTERS left for executives to hide their money[/quote]

Why not just remove the income tax altogether for everyone?

Why should corporations have special privileges that an individual cannot have?

Mathematically, don’t you think a small consumption tax would be better – i.e., increase revenue for the gubbamint?[/quote]

Some one has to pay for the services we enjoy, i know you do not want Roads schools , cops ,fire service. And it is a Tyranny that forces you to pay for these services. Sorry :)[/quote]

But mathematically the government would have more revenue if they did not tax income and only taxed consumption. If the economy grows because of increased productivity then allowing more opportunities to increase productivity would provide more opportunities to tax consumption.

Taxing present income reduces the prospect for future income and thus reduces government revenue.

Ratchet · February 21, 2011, 8:08pm

[quote]pittbulll wrote:

Some one has to pay for the services we enjoy, i know you do not want Roads schools , cops ,fire service. And it is a Tyranny that forces you to pay for these services. Sorry :)[/quote]

in alabama anyone who can sends thier kids to private school that costs more then my college tuition. This is because the schools are sooo horrid your kid has no chance in college if you dont. so why, are we running public schools when they are so horrible, let the people who earned the money keep it and spend it on their own kids, imho…

pittbulll · February 21, 2011, 8:32pm

[quote]Ratchet wrote:

[quote]pittbulll wrote:

Some one has to pay for the services we enjoy, i know you do not want Roads schools , cops ,fire service. And it is a Tyranny that forces you to pay for these services. Sorry :)[/quote]

in alabama anyone who can sends thier kids to private school that costs more then my college tuition. This is because the schools are sooo horrid your kid has no chance in college if you dont. so why, are we running public schools when they are so horrible, let the people who earned the money keep it and spend it on their own kids, imho…[/quote]

I can not speak specifically about Alabama, I can speak about AZ, Arizona is notoriously a poorly run school system. I have first hand understanding of many problems that plague public education. I think the biggest plague is UNEDUCATED parents . The parents do not see the value in an education so they do not instill the value in their kids. IMO that is why wealthy school systems are superior to poor because the wealthy are more educated an value education.

apbt55 · February 21, 2011, 9:03pm

[quote]Kansky wrote:

You are talking about something completely different, you are trying to relate a small business setting, to which I agree that a union is not in the best interest of the company, however, when you are talking about a state that is trying to employ teachers for a public school system, there is no room to be competitive on wages. Referring to the situation in Wisconsin, what risk is the state taking? Are they in danger of producing dumb children and somehow the world will sue them for it? The point is to keep good teachers around and set up a system where the shit teachers are dismissed, when I was in high school our teachers were paid well, top 15% in Illinois starting pay, but if they didn’t show that they could keep kids at an acceptable level, they were given walking papers.[/quote]

not the case currently, it is to get as much as they can. But this is funded by taxes, so we should have the right to vote on everything then. That why they should not be allowed to bargain. Conflict of interest, there is no one on the hook for the money to say no.

apbt55 · February 21, 2011, 9:09pm