Wisconsin Heating Up

Off Topic Politics & World Issues
41

[quote]MaximusB wrote:
The $3 Billion deficit is the upcoming 2-year deficit, not the current deficit.

As far as the governor spending the money, you are referring to the former Democratic governor who was elected by the unions, to further their pension/benefit packages. The was a “you scratch my back, I scratch yours” kind of mentality.
[/quote]

No, I’m referring to Walker.

Maybe in some cases that’s true (you’re probably more familiar with California’s situation than I am for example), but in this case the deficit has nothing to do with the unions.

[quote]
If you think this is bad, wait til this shit hits California. Our state Republicans will not put a tax increase or extension on the ballot. Our governor has to make cuts, $29 Billion in cuts, it’s gonna be crackin’ up in Crapifornia soon. [/quote]

Sorry to hear about that. Hope things get better for you guys.

42

[quote]BostonBarrister wrote:
I don’t really understand why public-sector employees should be allowed to unionize anyway. http://www.professorbainbridge.com/professorbainbridgecom/2011/02/the-case-against-public-sector-unionism.html[/quote]

He makes some good points.

However, realistically how much bargaining power would a single individual have in negotiating with the state or federal government? Not much (unless maybe they were of very high importance) I’d say. But, get a whole bunch of them together and now you’ve got a little more bargaining power. To deny them this ability would be a violation of their right to assemble (which is protected under the first amendment).

Sure, there are certain positions where the individual has taken an oath to serve and protect (law enforcement for example). But does that mean that they shouldn’t be allowed to also negotiate for things like a decent wage (they do after all put their lives on the line on a daily basis in some areas of the country for the rest of us), health care, and sick time?

43

[quote]BostonBarrister wrote:
I don’t really understand why public-sector employees should be allowed to unionize anyway. http://www.professorbainbridge.com/professorbainbridgecom/2011/02/the-case-against-public-sector-unionism.html[/quote]

Because you are rational and logical. They should not be allowed to unionize, one of the worst abuses in our society we have ever seen.

What happens when a union becomes more oppressive than a government?

44

[quote]Tex Ag wrote:

[quote]MaximusB wrote:
Sento,

I hear you man, but WI has a $3 BILLION deficit, and you want to yell about $140 million? I agree that if that money is in fact spent on some bullshit, then it should be addressed. But you are talking ridiculously unfunded pension liabilities, they would still be paying LESS THAN HALF what the private sector pays. The average government worker makes $89k/year (which includes pension, benefits, etc.) Average private sector worker makes $61k/year. The pension/benefit package for gov’t workers is nearly 3 times better than that of the private sector and pay a shit ton less into it. And consider this, who pays for these pension/bennies? Taxpayers. And it is a wonder why this shit would go under so quickly.[/quote]

I do not disagree that there needs to be some movement when it comes to pensions and people’s expectations. (That said, I think upping the retirement age up is a no brainer yet look at the political tracking that it getting.)

I am not going to argue your numbers, those what I have seen have been when compared at the job level (so job in govt verse same job in private) the govt job paid less with better benefits but worked out about the same as in private sector in overall cost. Those studies were site specific. Looking at it on the macro level might be misleading in come cases, though probably not all.

If you could clarify for me something, when you said that the ave govt worker makes $89k, do you mean take home, or rather, costs $89k once the cost of pension, insurance, etc. when included? If cost, then the $89k is closer to about $40k take home salary.
[/quote]

Public vs. private total earnings are fairly close when like jobs are compared. Part of the difference is that far more public job require profession credentials for the most part then do median private secctor jobs.

Despite the justifiable anger at certain compensation in certain places, such as the city manager who made 800k, median public salaries just aren’t as high as people claim.

Another point to be made is that only 36% or so of public workers are unionized.

Also to a large degree, much of the underfunding was caused by states choosing to skip their yearly funding contributions for years. Of course the money that was supposed to be funded was spent on some other project and the pension liability was pushed off for another day.

I’m no big fan of unions and watched them make the US steel industry uncompetetive but I’m not going to blame them for stuff they didn’t do either.

45

Some doctors will sign sick notes for protesters who call in sick…

Fucking dirtbags, they should lose their medical licenses on the spot.

46

so I think every state that has the ability to with the given elected officials should immediately duplicate this bill and try to pass it,

See how thin we can spread professional protestors.

47

No one seems to be giving blame to the real culprit here. Govener Doyle didnt run for reelection this time and trained the rest of his democrats to run. Doyle caused the shortfall, he is to blame. He quit because he knew what was going on. All that will happen is Walker will get a balanced budget on the backs of the Union workers and he will not be reelected. Then a Democrat will get back in as Govener and give back to the Unions and run us into the red again. Its a vicious circle of idiots!!!

48

Unionized jobs generally have a 15% premium vs. nonunionized.

On public v private sector comparisons, you need to take into account all of the non-salary benefits (like job security, hours expected, vacation, etc.) See:

http://modeledbehavior.com/2010/08/09/the-power-of-public-sector-unions/

http://modeledbehavior.com/2010/08/11/the-power-of-public-sector-unions-ctd/

49

[quote]BostonBarrister wrote:
I don’t really understand why public-sector employees should be allowed to unionize anyway. ProfessorBainbridge.com [/quote]

[quote]Sentoguy wrote:

He makes some good points.

However, realistically how much bargaining power would a single individual have in negotiating with the state or federal government? Not much (unless maybe they were of very high importance) I’d say. But, get a whole bunch of them together and now you’ve got a little more bargaining power. To deny them this ability would be a violation of their right to assemble (which is protected under the first amendment). [/quote]

As a lawyer, I feel the need to correct this. Collective bargaining has absolutely nothing to do with the right to assemble. The right to assemble means the right for a bunch of people to get together (peacefully) - like for demonstrations and such. There aren’t really any constitutional rights that would imply the right to collectively bargain on a contract.

Technically, unions would be violations of anti-trust law - except they were granted a specific exemption from those laws. So, while doctors can’t get together and decide what rates to charge the government, a union can get together and decide that they won’t offer their labor at less than a certain rate.

[quote]Sentoguy wrote:
Sure, there are certain positions where the individual has taken an oath to serve and protect (law enforcement for example). But does that mean that they shouldn’t be allowed to also negotiate for things like a decent wage (they do after all put their lives on the line on a daily basis in some areas of the country for the rest of us), health care, and sick time? [/quote]

The ability to bargain collectively, and the ability to bargain, are two separate things. Particularly, the ability to be protected by federal labor laws favoring unions (which, for instance, might prevent the employer from firing all of the people on strike), is not the same thing as the ability to negotiate for benefits.

Also, particularly w/r/t public-sector employees, you’re dealing with either monopolies imposed by the state (e.g., no private police forces), or things that citizens are forced to pay for irrespective of their utilization (e.g., public schools) and which most people can’t afford to pay for twice. Given that position for the market for the services, it doesn’t follow that the law should allow an exemption from the anti-trust prohibitions to public-sector employees.

BTW, my brother is a cop. And my wife and sister-in-law are teachers.

50

What would Gov. Chris Christie do?

I think he’d probably find some grounds to fire people refusing to do their jobs.

He took on the NJ teachers union (The Cartel) and appears to actually be getting the upper hand - to most peoples delight. Of course the teachers fear they might lose tenure and pay more for health insurance etc. But sorry, the system is broken and taxpayers are too pissed off.

51

Who said that the teacher’s union was not interested in concessions? Yesterday I was in Madison, with fellow union members, and talked to people on both sides of the argument, while the Pass the Bill crowd is correct that there is absololutely no way that the state could continue to operate the way things are, they are incorrect that the teachers refused to accept that. I talked to a member of the teacher’s union who said after Walker took office last year the President of the union called and sent many letters trying to begin talks early knowing they would be concessionary, however, Walker never called back or acknowledged the union existed, which is an unfair labor/bargaining practice. Also when the news, it doesn’t matter which one, reports that the teacher’s would have to contribute more to their healthcare, they never bring up the past practice of many unions, such as the Wisconsin Teachers Union, not taking pay raises in lieu of keeping their healthcare costs down.

It is interesting how many feel that unions are useless, what is your argument? Do you really feel that corparations or even states for that matter are good people and would pay a decent wage? I am a private sector union, locomotive engineer, and I have seen first hand what it is like to be non-union, and the protection and security you get when you are organized are worth the dues I have to pay every month.

52

[quote]Sweet Revenge wrote:
What would Gov. Chris Christie do?

I think he’d probably find some grounds to fire people refusing to do their jobs.

He took on the NJ teachers union (The Cartel) and appears to actually be getting the upper hand - to most peoples delight. Of course the teachers fear they might lose tenure and pay more for health insurance etc. But sorry, the system is broken and taxpayers are too pissed off. [/quote]

“Taxpayers are too pissed off”… yep.

This is why the governor has no choice, and he will get his way. He has this in the bags, assuming the Repubs don’t cave in.

I can’t wait to see this happen in here in Cali. $29 Billion in cuts om nom nom.

53

[quote]MaximusB wrote:
Sento,

I hear you man, but WI has a $3 BILLION deficit, and you want to yell about $140 million? I agree that if that money is in fact spent on some bullshit, then it should be addressed. But you are talking ridiculously unfunded pension liabilities, they would still be paying LESS THAN HALF what the private sector pays. The average government worker makes $89k/year (which includes pension, benefits, etc.) Average private sector worker makes $61k/year. The pension/benefit package for gov’t workers is nearly 3 times better than that of the private sector and pay a shit ton less into it. And consider this, who pays for these pension/bennies? Taxpayers. And it is a wonder why this shit would go under so quickly.[/quote]

This is the good side of Unions , the Private sector should unionize. Then they could quit pissing and moanning about the money THEY are not making, just a different angle

54

[quote]pittbulll wrote:

[quote]MaximusB wrote:
Sento,

I hear you man, but WI has a $3 BILLION deficit, and you want to yell about $140 million? I agree that if that money is in fact spent on some bullshit, then it should be addressed. But you are talking ridiculously unfunded pension liabilities, they would still be paying LESS THAN HALF what the private sector pays. The average government worker makes $89k/year (which includes pension, benefits, etc.) Average private sector worker makes $61k/year. The pension/benefit package for gov’t workers is nearly 3 times better than that of the private sector and pay a shit ton less into it. And consider this, who pays for these pension/bennies? Taxpayers. And it is a wonder why this shit would go under so quickly.[/quote]

This is the good side of Unions , the Private sector should unionize. Then they could quit pissing and moanning about the money THEY are not making, just a different angle[/quote]

How could they stop “pissing and moanning about the money THEY are not making” when they are unemployed?

55

[quote]orion wrote:

[quote]pittbulll wrote:

[quote]MaximusB wrote:
Sento,

I hear you man, but WI has a $3 BILLION deficit, and you want to yell about $140 million? I agree that if that money is in fact spent on some bullshit, then it should be addressed. But you are talking ridiculously unfunded pension liabilities, they would still be paying LESS THAN HALF what the private sector pays. The average government worker makes $89k/year (which includes pension, benefits, etc.) Average private sector worker makes $61k/year. The pension/benefit package for gov’t workers is nearly 3 times better than that of the private sector and pay a shit ton less into it. And consider this, who pays for these pension/bennies? Taxpayers. And it is a wonder why this shit would go under so quickly.[/quote]

This is the good side of Unions , the Private sector should unionize. Then they could quit pissing and moanning about the money THEY are not making, just a different angle[/quote]

How could they stop “pissing and moanning about the money THEY are not making” when they are unemployed?

[/quote]

you will have to explain this to me , no you won’t :slight_smile: I know you disagree but your statement is not factual , it is just an opinion of a percentage of the population

56

[quote]pittbulll wrote:

[quote]orion wrote:

[quote]pittbulll wrote:

[quote]MaximusB wrote:
Sento,

I hear you man, but WI has a $3 BILLION deficit, and you want to yell about $140 million? I agree that if that money is in fact spent on some bullshit, then it should be addressed. But you are talking ridiculously unfunded pension liabilities, they would still be paying LESS THAN HALF what the private sector pays. The average government worker makes $89k/year (which includes pension, benefits, etc.) Average private sector worker makes $61k/year. The pension/benefit package for gov’t workers is nearly 3 times better than that of the private sector and pay a shit ton less into it. And consider this, who pays for these pension/bennies? Taxpayers. And it is a wonder why this shit would go under so quickly.[/quote]

This is the good side of Unions , the Private sector should unionize. Then they could quit pissing and moanning about the money THEY are not making, just a different angle[/quote]

How could they stop “pissing and moanning about the money THEY are not making” when they are unemployed?

[/quote]

you will have to explain this to me , no you won’t :slight_smile: I know you disagree but your statement is not factual , it is just an opinion of a percentage of the population
[/quote]

Onion is right, unions are so strong, you have to commit murder to get fired. I am not kidding, all they do is put you on the shuffle should you come under scrutiny.

57

[quote]MaximusB wrote:

[quote]pittbulll wrote:

[quote]orion wrote:

[quote]pittbulll wrote:

[quote]MaximusB wrote:
Sento,

I hear you man, but WI has a $3 BILLION deficit, and you want to yell about $140 million? I agree that if that money is in fact spent on some bullshit, then it should be addressed. But you are talking ridiculously unfunded pension liabilities, they would still be paying LESS THAN HALF what the private sector pays. The average government worker makes $89k/year (which includes pension, benefits, etc.) Average private sector worker makes $61k/year. The pension/benefit package for gov’t workers is nearly 3 times better than that of the private sector and pay a shit ton less into it. And consider this, who pays for these pension/bennies? Taxpayers. And it is a wonder why this shit would go under so quickly.[/quote]

This is the good side of Unions , the Private sector should unionize. Then they could quit pissing and moanning about the money THEY are not making, just a different angle[/quote]

How could they stop “pissing and moanning about the money THEY are not making” when they are unemployed?

[/quote]

you will have to explain this to me , no you won’t :slight_smile: I know you disagree but your statement is not factual , it is just an opinion of a percentage of the population
[/quote]

Onion is right, unions are so strong, you have to commit murder to get fired. I am not kidding, all they do is put you on the shuffle should you come under scrutiny. [/quote]

That might be true for public union workers, but in the case of teh real economy the solution is much more simple.

Close plant, move to Mexico, case closed.

58

[quote]pittbulll wrote:

[quote]orion wrote:

[quote]pittbulll wrote:

[quote]MaximusB wrote:
Sento,

I hear you man, but WI has a $3 BILLION deficit, and you want to yell about $140 million? I agree that if that money is in fact spent on some bullshit, then it should be addressed. But you are talking ridiculously unfunded pension liabilities, they would still be paying LESS THAN HALF what the private sector pays. The average government worker makes $89k/year (which includes pension, benefits, etc.) Average private sector worker makes $61k/year. The pension/benefit package for gov’t workers is nearly 3 times better than that of the private sector and pay a shit ton less into it. And consider this, who pays for these pension/bennies? Taxpayers. And it is a wonder why this shit would go under so quickly.[/quote]

This is the good side of Unions , the Private sector should unionize. Then they could quit pissing and moanning about the money THEY are not making, just a different angle[/quote]

How could they stop “pissing and moanning about the money THEY are not making” when they are unemployed?

[/quote]

you will have to explain this to me , no you won’t :slight_smile: I know you disagree but your statement is not factual , it is just an opinion of a percentage of the population
[/quote]

My non-factual opinion is that entrepreneurs are combining factors of production to be as productive as possible.

If one factor, say human labor, becomes too expensive you substitute it with another, say, machines.

59

[quote]MaximusB wrote:

[quote]pittbulll wrote:

[quote]orion wrote:

[quote]pittbulll wrote:

[quote]MaximusB wrote:
Sento,

I hear you man, but WI has a $3 BILLION deficit, and you want to yell about $140 million? I agree that if that money is in fact spent on some bullshit, then it should be addressed. But you are talking ridiculously unfunded pension liabilities, they would still be paying LESS THAN HALF what the private sector pays. The average government worker makes $89k/year (which includes pension, benefits, etc.) Average private sector worker makes $61k/year. The pension/benefit package for gov’t workers is nearly 3 times better than that of the private sector and pay a shit ton less into it. And consider this, who pays for these pension/bennies? Taxpayers. And it is a wonder why this shit would go under so quickly.[/quote]

This is the good side of Unions , the Private sector should unionize. Then they could quit pissing and moanning about the money THEY are not making, just a different angle[/quote]

How could they stop “pissing and moanning about the money THEY are not making” when they are unemployed?

[/quote]

you will have to explain this to me , no you won’t :slight_smile: I know you disagree but your statement is not factual , it is just an opinion of a percentage of the population
[/quote]

Onion is right, unions are so strong, you have to commit murder to get fired. I am not kidding, all they do is put you on the shuffle should you come under scrutiny. [/quote]

That is the down side to Unions , but the up side is better working conditions and better compensation for labor .

60

[quote]orion wrote:

[quote]pittbulll wrote:

[quote]orion wrote:

[quote]pittbulll wrote:

[quote]MaximusB wrote:
Sento,

I hear you man, but WI has a $3 BILLION deficit, and you want to yell about $140 million? I agree that if that money is in fact spent on some bullshit, then it should be addressed. But you are talking ridiculously unfunded pension liabilities, they would still be paying LESS THAN HALF what the private sector pays. The average government worker makes $89k/year (which includes pension, benefits, etc.) Average private sector worker makes $61k/year. The pension/benefit package for gov’t workers is nearly 3 times better than that of the private sector and pay a shit ton less into it. And consider this, who pays for these pension/bennies? Taxpayers. And it is a wonder why this shit would go under so quickly.[/quote]

This is the good side of Unions , the Private sector should unionize. Then they could quit pissing and moanning about the money THEY are not making, just a different angle[/quote]

How could they stop “pissing and moanning about the money THEY are not making” when they are unemployed?

[/quote]

you will have to explain this to me , no you won’t :slight_smile: I know you disagree but your statement is not factual , it is just an opinion of a percentage of the population
[/quote]

My non-factual opinion is that entrepreneurs are combining factors of production to be as productive as possible.

If one factor, say human labor, becomes too expensive you substitute it with another, say, machines.

[/quote]

That is progress, no argument here