Will Israel Win The War?

[Wreckless]

[quote]eic wrote:
Whatever the merits of your “analogy” it is hard to listen to your explanation when the landmass of the Arab world surrounding Israel is so enormous. Arab muslims look stupid shouting at Israel for a few scraps of desert (most of Israel is comprised of the Negev which was a worthless piece of crap until the Israelis developed advanced irrigation). Moreover, it is not like anyone had a solid right to that land before 1947.
[/quote]
That’s a strange thing to hear from someone who claims to be studying law. I was under the impression that it was widely accepted that a people who lived for centuries in a particular part of the world, do have a solid claim on that land.

[quote]
During WWII, there were both Arabs AND Jews living in Israel. In fact, you should know better than anyone that Jews helped England fight in WWII by helping move munitions and other supplies in the Middle Eastern region. [/quote]
While the Arabs were scratching their balls?

So, post WWII, you have a lot of Jews who want the hell out of Europe (understandably so) and a lot of Jews already living in the area that is now Israel. The easiest solution was to allow the European Jews to come to meet the other Jews and to have the Arabs who live there share their land.

So far, your story is very similar to dannyrats.

But right from the get-go the Arabs said “no” and wanted it all for themselves. All or nothing. They got nothing.

I take that back. Your story is identical to his.

[quote]
So according to your analogy there is no solution to this mess. Because from what you say, even if Israel gave Gaza back (which it has) [/quote]
It hasn’t. It has turned tha gaza strip into an open prison. The Palestinians don’t controll the border to Egypt nor do they have access to the see.

[quote]
and gave back all of the West Bank (which it hasn’t; not all of it),[/quote] No, Israel is building more settlements there and stealing the richest areas and the water.

[quote]
there would still be unrest and anger because Israel exists in the first place. [/quote]
The PLO has accepted Israel as a state. Perhaps you didn’t know that?

[quote]
So what is Israel supposed to do, just give up and walk into the sea? You can understand how that option is unacceptable. Why can’t the Arabs just share? [/quote]
It’s hard to share with someone who steals your richest land and 90% of the water.

[quote] Israel would gladly leave them alone if they would leave Israel alone.

Bear in mind also that Arab Muslims live and work happily in Israel itself. They are citizens and enjoy all the benefits of that status. Doesn’t that tell you anything? [/quote]
Yup, that tells me you’re a gullible fool if you believe that.

[quote] Some Arabs have enough sense to realize that Israel has a right to exist and have decided to quit bitching and to get a job, make a life, etc.

Unfortunately, most others simply need a reason to justify their existence and Israel is that reason. You want to get “elected” or brought into power in an Arab Muslim or Persian Muslim country? Proclaim that Israel is the “great Satan” and that it must be destroyed. See, e.g., the President of Iran.

Again, I think you and your buddy Wreckless don’t understand the mentality of militant Muslims.[/quote]
But you do? Have you ever spoken to a militant Muslim? Have you ever seen a Muslim? And no, seen them on tv doesn’t count.

[quote]
You try to pretend like there is a logical and even sympathetic reason for their aggression against Israel, but in reality they are bloodthirsty people that are looking to make trouble whereever they can find it.
How else do you explain the fact that they fight each other just as ruthlessly as they fight Jews and Americans?

The sad part is that if they are ever given the chance, and someday they might, they would kill you and Wreckless just as quickly as they would kill me. I hate to draw analogies to WWII because it is over played, but you and Wreckless sound just like the appeasement policies of the English and French with Hitler.[/quote]
While you sound very much like Hitler himself.

Is it a coincidence that you speak with an English accent and he speaks French?

You’re pulling that same string again.
No go back and crawl under your rock.

[Wreckless]

[quote]JeffR wrote:
ExNole wrote:

Besides the grammatical problems, your argument is also fundamentally flawed.

By using cause and effect language you are effectively using value-neutral language. Israel does x, it follows that the terrorists could only do y. But from this, you are deriving ethical claims, namely, Israel is to blame.

Moving towards value neutral language is a bad move from the start because your argument is at heart a moral one. You argue what Israel is doing is wrong in a moral sense, not a politically disadvantageous sense.

You also fail to note that the natural thing for anyone to do when attacked by terrrorists is to strike back militarily. ‘Being terrorized causes punitive military strikes at those who attacked you.’ So the same reasoning that led you to blaming Israel can lead you to exonerating them. Bad reasoning.

Also it’s worth noting that any historian worth his weight in pink dumbbells knows that establishing true cause and effect is tenuous at best.

You also fail to see the difference, at least in your reasoning in these posts between having a reason to do an action and being justified in doing that action. Israel is justified in defending its people, it may make policy mistakes in doing so, but the action is fundamentally justified. There may be reasons for the Palestinians to be angry and resentful, but they do not justify their actions.

VERY, VERY GOOD post!!!

I encourage reckless and the rat to read this.

JeffR
[/quote]

I encourage effR to read my reply to his post and answer my very simple questions. I answered his, so the least he can do is return the favor.

[Wreckless]

[quote]JeffR wrote:
beaver,

Welcome to the forum.

I read your post and it was thoughtful.

However, it is a waste of time railing against Israel for being created. It was born. It may have been conceived in error.

However, it is there.

Now, nothing can justify deliberately targeting little girls. NOTHING. [/quote]
Well, if it were Israeli doing the targetting, you’ld justify in a heatbeat. You already have.

Your commentary about joining hamas speaks volumes. Your level of bias and prejudice blinds you to the fact that terrorism is NEVER justified.

If you use terrorism, your cause is automatically invalid.

Except when you happen to use it to found a Jewish state. That would make it quite all right and everybody would have to accept that.

[quote] In summary, try to imagine being an IDF member. Imagine if your family was being targeted by dumb missles using ball bearings for maximum damage.

Imagine seeing those rockets streaking overhead toward your homeland. Imagine not knowing if your mother, daughter, wife, girlfriend, brother, father will be killed or maimed. Imagine seeing them shrieking in pain. Imagine knowing that the slime firing those missles don’t care who they hit as long as they hit as many of them as possible.

Then imagine walking into a known hezbollah stronghold.

I’d say the Israeli’s are using admirable restraint.

JeffR[/quote]

Indeedy. Admirable restraint.
Imagine being a little Lebanese girl, living in south lebanon and the Israeli air force drop clusterbombs on you.
How far would your admiration for their restraint go?

You’re a tool effR.

[Wreckless]

[quote]ExNole wrote:
JeffR wrote:
ExNole wrote:

VERY, VERY GOOD post!!!

I encourage reckless and the rat to read this.

JeffR

Thanks man[/quote]

You know you’ve got the morans on the run when they start to congratulate one another.

[Wreckless]

[quote]Phoenix1911 wrote:
Rockscar wrote:
Isreal MUST win this war.
If it does not, radical Islam will spread further.

Additionally I don’t like how America is standing by watching. We need to understand that Iran is mainly to blame for this setup war by them.

This is not just Islam vs Jews…this is an attempt at deliberately creating unrest in Lebanon. It’s also a diversion from Iran created to get attention away from their Nuclear program.

Why are we not holding Iran accountable?

Why are there no protests against Iran and Hezbolla? How can they operate in civilian areas like hospitals an UN posts? Where is the world outrage on this?

I just don’t get it.

I dont think we should stand by but we cant take military action right now…our country doesnt have the money and our military is currently spread thin…remember we still have to keep tabs on north korea and we are running around in iraq and afganistan.
[/quote]
Yes that is very unfortunate. Perhaps we can blaim Clinton? Or the UN?

[quote]
And if you haven’t seen by the way the news is presented…the U.N is in hezbollahs corner. Annan has some shit up his sleeve. Alot of people are trying to make israel look like the bad guys in the situation and thats why there is not alot of press about the bombing of israeli towns…there isnt alot of press about israel broadcasting that they were going to bomb specific areas and telling civilians to leave. They dont talk about hezbollah in civillian clothes or the fact that they hide weapons in civilian houses. They dont talk about anything except civilians getting killed. Hez has used the media extremely well.[/quote]

First off all, there IS attention for the deaths in Israel. But what if Hezbollah would broadcast that they would fire rockets into Israel, might that make it somehow ok for you?

Because it looks like you’re saying that Israel using cluster bombs on Lebanese towns is ok because they broadcasted it.

Because, if it’s simply a matter of broadcasting, that could easily be corrected, I’m sure.

[JeffR]

[quote]Wreckless wrote:
JeffR wrote:
danny and reckless:

Let’s get down to the root of the issue:

Do you support hezbollah’s decision to target civilians?

No, I don’t. But do you support Israels decision to target civilians?[/quote]

Thanks for your honesty.

I don’t support targeting civilians. However, I’d bet our definitons of “civilians” differs considerably.

If you are supporting/aiding/harboring hezbollah, you are no longer a civilian.

[quote]Do you support them ambushing Israeli soldiers to start this war?
I don’t think that started this war. But I don’t support the abduction of Israeli soldiers. Do you support the strangelation of the entire Palestinian people in the Gaza strip and the West-Bank. Because THAT’S what started this war you know.[/quote]

Of course this started this war. As to your second point, I think there is blame to point at Israel.

However, the moment terrorism was a stated policy of one of the groups, said group forfeits all sympathy.

NOTHING can justify terrorism.

[quote]I want yes or no answers to start out, please. Please directly answer these two questions. If you duck them, I will assume that you do support those actions.
Please return the favor. Simple answers to simple questions please.

As it stands, the majority opinion is that you do support those actions.

You can rant after.

JeffR
You are in no position to declare what the majority opinion is about me. And I don’t give a flying fuck either way.[/quote]

It’s obvious you don’t entertain competing opinions. No one could be as “reckless” without tuning out.

JeffR

[JeffR]

[quote]Wreckless wrote:
JeffR wrote:
beaver,

Welcome to the forum.

I read your post and it was thoughtful.

However, it is a waste of time railing against Israel for being created. It was born. It may have been conceived in error.

However, it is there.

Now, nothing can justify deliberately targeting little girls. NOTHING.
Well, if it were Israeli doing the targetting, you’ld justify in a heatbeat. You already have.

Your commentary about joining hamas speaks volumes. Your level of bias and prejudice blinds you to the fact that terrorism is NEVER justified.

If you use terrorism, your cause is automatically invalid.

Except when you happen to use it to found a Jewish state. That would make it quite all right and everybody would have to accept that.[/quote]

The discussion over who was more wronged, ended the very millisecond that terrorism was embraced by the parties in opposition to Israel. If you are part of these groups, you have no value.

[quote]In summary, try to imagine being an IDF member. Imagine if your family was being targeted by dumb missles using ball bearings for maximum damage.

Imagine seeing those rockets streaking overhead toward your homeland. Imagine not knowing if your mother, daughter, wife, girlfriend, brother, father will be killed or maimed. Imagine seeing them shrieking in pain. Imagine knowing that the slime firing those missles don’t care who they hit as long as they hit as many of them as possible.

Then imagine walking into a known hezbollah stronghold.

I’d say the Israeli’s are using admirable restraint.

JeffR

Indeedy. Admirable restraint.
Imagine being a little Lebanese girl, living in south lebanon and the Israeli air force drop clusterbombs on you.
How far would your admiration for their restraint go?

You’re a tool effR.[/quote]

You know what, pal, it’s going to be hard to convince anyone but the rat that Israel is making a concerted effort to target civilians. If they were, it would be obvious.

Have you heard that they are dropping pamphlets? Have you heard that they are giving guys 24 hours to vacate before the strikes?

What chance are the people hit by the 240 dumb missles given? Huh?

You made a smartass remark about “broadcasting.”

In this case, you’re damn right broadcasting matters.

JeffR

[eic]

Wreckless: There is no convincing you, so I’ll just leave you to rot in hell with your terrorist friends. Just one last thing: When the Islamists come for you and fuck you in the ass sans lubrication, and as you watch your shitty country fall to pieces (unless the US saves you first), promise me that you will remember this thread. I want you to think of me as you look around at the misery that you wrought for yourself and I want you to know that somewhere I will be smiling.

I won’t respond to any further posts by you or Dannyrat; I won’t even read them. I’ll let you two have the last words…

[thunderbolt23]

Will Israel win?

Let’s hope so.

After all, it is not as though the UN will neuter Hezbollah. Kofi Annan thinks the way to deal with Islamist elements is to form a committee to talk about it, then have a summit, and then post worthless observers in military hot zones.

The coming conflict - I suspect it will widen - may once and for all be the conflict over the presence of Israel in the Middle East. I mean, there is no political solution - Israel’s existence was the result of multilateral work at the UN post WWII, every liberal internationalist’s wet dream; it couldn’t be a more legitimate state if it tried. But Muslim nations want no part of co-existence with Israel, so there can be no compromise.

I worry that Israel won’t seethe long enough and continue to pound away relentlessly at its attackers - I worry that exhaustion will set in. That is when, of course, Islamists get their jollies up.

[Zap_Branigan]

[quote]eic wrote:
Wreckless: There is no convincing you, so I’ll just leave you to rot in hell with your terrorist friends. Just one last thing: When the Islamists come for you and fuck you in the ass sans lubrication, and as you watch your shitty country fall to pieces (unless the US saves you first), promise me that you will remember this thread. I want you to think of me as you look around at the misery that you wrought for yourself and I want you to know that somewhere I will be smiling.

I won’t respond to any further posts by you or Dannyrat; I won’t even read them. I’ll let you two have the last words…[/quote]

Wreckless is a troll. Don’t waste too much time on him.

[ExNole]

I encourage effR to read my reply to his post and answer my very simple questions. I answered his, so the least he can do is return the favor.

I don’t mean to be a nitpicker, but you actually didn’t ask any questions at all in your reply to my post. I responded earlier to that post, if you’ll go back up a bit.

[hazarddude334]

people are getting so pumped over this thread.
Will Israel win, yes it clear to me at least US will back it once needed but we trying to ovoid getting involved like Iraq bc once we do people who cry about that Bush is screwed no matter what he does just like most other presidents were before him

we have to blame someone dont we

[Phoenix1911]

[quote]Wreckless wrote:
Phoenix1911 wrote:
Rockscar wrote:
Isreal MUST win this war.
If it does not, radical Islam will spread further.

Additionally I don’t like how America is standing by watching. We need to understand that Iran is mainly to blame for this setup war by them.

This is not just Islam vs Jews…this is an attempt at deliberately creating unrest in Lebanon. It’s also a diversion from Iran created to get attention away from their Nuclear program.

Why are we not holding Iran accountable?

Why are there no protests against Iran and Hezbolla? How can they operate in civilian areas like hospitals an UN posts? Where is the world outrage on this?

I just don’t get it.

I dont think we should stand by but we cant take military action right now…our country doesnt have the money and our military is currently spread thin…remember we still have to keep tabs on north korea and we are running around in iraq and afganistan.

Yes that is very unfortunate. Perhaps we can blaim Clinton? Or the UN?

Im sure there are lots of things we can attribute to that.

And if you haven’t seen by the way the news is presented…the U.N is in hezbollahs corner. Annan has some shit up his sleeve. Alot of people are trying to make israel look like the bad guys in the situation and thats why there is not alot of press about the bombing of israeli towns…there isnt alot of press about israel broadcasting that they were going to bomb specific areas and telling civilians to leave. They dont talk about hezbollah in civillian clothes or the fact that they hide weapons in civilian houses. They dont talk about anything except civilians getting killed. Hez has used the media extremely well.

First off all, there IS attention for the deaths in Israel. But what if Hezbollah would broadcast that they would fire rockets into Israel, might that make it somehow ok for you?

Because it looks like you’re saying that Israel using cluster bombs on Lebanese towns is ok because they broadcasted it.

Because, if it’s simply a matter of broadcasting, that could easily be corrected, I’m sure.[/quote]

And yes smartass…if you warn the civillians of an area that you are going to bomb the area with leaflets and all sorts of other warning devices that puts you above the enemy. Israel is giving people a chance during wartime…there havent been many wars when one side will do somthing like that. My statement was that this is a war of propoganda and you picked one part of what I said and try to make a fool of me and end up making a fool of yourself. The amount of media attention that is favorable to hez far exceeds that which is favorable to israel…and its sure as fuck not justified.

[SuperBeaver]

Jeff R

Sorry if i wasn’t clear. I do not condone the terrorist actions. I do think there is a valid reason for them and i’m saying that if i was in there shoes that i might do the same thing.

I think i said in my message that i think they should drop the revenge and injustice thing and work towards peace. I said that in reality that this would not happen because those people living in the middle east have a lot of hatred towards Israel.

I’m trying to suggest that you CAN understand where the terrorists are coming from if you really know about what has happened in the middle east. I CAN also see the Israel point of view too. I would not want to be bombed by Hezzbolah.

My final comment was trying to point out that Israel should be very careful about justifying their actions with defence of their homeland because if they were not there in the first place they wouldn’t need to and they really didn’t need to be there.

Why did they need a homeland in Israel?

Before the seperate Israel state there were Jews living with Arabs in palestine. That’s the way it should be in my opinion.

As for this debate - there will be no winners here either because this has got to be one of the most heated topics you could EVER want to talk about in a public forum.

This might be a difficult one for a lot of people to get but we need to stop trying to hate and demonize people on this planet. Because to Hezzbolah their actions are justified and they are not evil people - they are human just like the people on this forum. I would rather try and understand someone and talk my way out of the situation than eradicate them from the planet.

The problem is people get their priorites wrong. Wanting to be right, revenge, justice, control rather than peace. Hezzbolah or middle eastern terrorists are not the only people on this planet who fall foul of this.

But as i said - this is a hot topic.

[Gregus]

This is an unwinable war. The violence will never end there and not because there’s fanatics living there, but rather because Israel is an illegal nation. I hope this is not uncomfortable for some but it’s the truth. Sure it may be “legal” in our convenient system, but morally speaking it’s not. It was put there and in effect drawn in on the map by the west after WW2. Oooo, never mind the people that live there already with their own culture etc… They’ll get used to it, it will better them anyway. So there you have it.

This is my simplistic and kindergarden level take on this issue. But there is a fundamental truism to what i said.

Sure you can rebuke what i said with fancy language, links and arguments. Simple fact remains though, Israel should not be there in the first place. Until we deal with this, we’ll just be dealing with the side effects of it being there. And since israel will not go anywhere now, this is a conflict without end. Accept it, move on and wash your hands of the whole deal. If you don’t you’re bound to bring their troubles over here. Opps, wait, that happened already too.

[doogie]

[quote]Gregus wrote:
This is an unwinable war. The violence will never end there and not because there’s fanatics living there, but rather because Israel is an illegal nation. I hope this is not uncomfortable for some but it’s the truth. Sure it may be “legal” in our convenient system, but morally speaking it’s not. It was put there and in effect drawn in on the map by the west after WW2. Oooo, never mind the people that live there already with their own culture etc… They’ll get used to it, it will better them anyway. So there you have it.

This is my simplistic and kindergarden level take on this issue. But there is a fundamental truism to what i said.

Sure you can rebuke what i said with fancy language, links and arguments. Simple fact remains though, Israel should not be there in the first place. Until we deal with this, we’ll just be dealing with the side effects of it being there. And since israel will not go anywhere now, this is a conflict without end. Accept it, move on and wash your hands of the whole deal. If you don’t you’re bound to bring their troubles over here. Opps, wait, that happened already too. [/quote]

Clearly it IS a legal country, but I’m more interested in what you would consider to be a moral country. Virtually every country in the world is the result of some people kicking other people’s ass. Where do you draw the line in history and determine what is moral and what isn’t?

[SuperBeaver]

Despite the fact that i think it was wrong for Israel to be created i think it’s irrelevant.

The only opinion that counts is that of the local middle eastern countries and they ALL think Israel should never of been created and some of them are going to violently confront Israel until they (muslim terroists) are killed.

[Wreckless]

[quote]eic wrote:
Wreckless: There is no convincing you, so I’ll just leave you to rot in hell with your terrorist friends.
[/quote]
Luckily, you don’t decide who rots in hell and who doesn’t.

Just one last thing: When the Islamists come for you and fuck you in the ass sans lubrication,

You have a lot of imagination for such a small boy.

and as you watch your shitty country fall to pieces (unless the US saves you first), promise me that you will remember this thread. I want you to think of me as you look around at the misery that you wrought for yourself and I want you to know that somewhere I will be smiling.

Hey, I’m smiling right now.

[quote]
I won’t respond to any further posts by you or Dannyrat; I won’t even read them. I’ll let you two have the last words…[/quote]
Not smart. And if you ever become a lawyer, I sure don’t want you to represent me.

[Wreckless]

[quote]Phoenix1911 wrote:
Wreckless wrote:
Phoenix1911 wrote:
Rockscar wrote:
Isreal MUST win this war.
If it does not, radical Islam will spread further.

Additionally I don’t like how America is standing by watching. We need to understand that Iran is mainly to blame for this setup war by them.

This is not just Islam vs Jews…this is an attempt at deliberately creating unrest in Lebanon. It’s also a diversion from Iran created to get attention away from their Nuclear program.

Why are we not holding Iran accountable?

Why are there no protests against Iran and Hezbolla? How can they operate in civilian areas like hospitals an UN posts? Where is the world outrage on this?

I just don’t get it.

I dont think we should stand by but we cant take military action right now…our country doesnt have the money and our military is currently spread thin…remember we still have to keep tabs on north korea and we are running around in iraq and afganistan.

Yes that is very unfortunate. Perhaps we can blaim Clinton? Or the UN?

Im sure there are lots of things we can attribute to that.

And if you haven’t seen by the way the news is presented…the U.N is in hezbollahs corner. Annan has some shit up his sleeve. Alot of people are trying to make israel look like the bad guys in the situation and thats why there is not alot of press about the bombing of israeli towns…there isnt alot of press about israel broadcasting that they were going to bomb specific areas and telling civilians to leave. They dont talk about hezbollah in civillian clothes or the fact that they hide weapons in civilian houses. They dont talk about anything except civilians getting killed. Hez has used the media extremely well.

First off all, there IS attention for the deaths in Israel. But what if Hezbollah would broadcast that they would fire rockets into Israel, might that make it somehow ok for you?

Because it looks like you’re saying that Israel using cluster bombs on Lebanese towns is ok because they broadcasted it.

Because, if it’s simply a matter of broadcasting, that could easily be corrected, I’m sure.

And yes smartass…if you warn the civillians of an area that you are going to bomb the area with leaflets and all sorts of other warning devices that puts you above the enemy. Israel is giving people a chance during wartime…there havent been many wars when one side will do somthing like that. My statement was that this is a war of propoganda and you picked one part of what I said and try to make a fool of me and end up making a fool of yourself. The amount of media attention that is favorable to hez far exceeds that which is favorable to israel…and its sure as fuck not justified.[/quote]

PEOLPLE OF ISRAEL ! ! !

LEAVE THIS AREA IMMEDIATLY AS HEZBOLLAH WILL BE FIRING ROCKETS IN TO IT DURING THE NEXT DAYS (as they have been doing for a couple of weeks now).

Glad we sorted that out.

[Wreckless]

[quote]JeffR wrote:
Wreckless wrote:
JeffR wrote:
danny and reckless:

Let’s get down to the root of the issue:

Do you support hezbollah’s decision to target civilians?

No, I don’t. But do you support Israels decision to target civilians?

Thanks for your honesty.

I don’t support targeting civilians. However, I’d bet our definitons of “civilians” differs considerably.

If you are supporting/aiding/harboring hezbollah, you are no longer a civilian.
[/quote]
So since most Israeli citizens are in the IDF, or have family in the IDF (harboring) they’re not civilians either.

[quote]Do you support them ambushing Israeli soldiers to start this war?
I don’t think that started this war. But I don’t support the abduction of Israeli soldiers. Do you support the strangelation of the entire Palestinian people in the Gaza strip and the West-Bank. Because THAT’S what started this war you know.[/quote]

Of course this started this war. As to your second point, I think there is blame to point at Israel.

However, the moment terrorism was a stated policy of one of the groups, said group forfeits all sympathy.

NOTHING can justify terrorism.
[/quote]
That’s strange. Considering the state of Israel was founded through terrorism, you steel to have plenty of sympathy left for them.

[quote]
I want yes or no answers to start out, please. Please directly answer these two questions. If you duck them, I will assume that you do support those actions.
Please return the favor. Simple answers to simple questions please.

As it stands, the majority opinion is that you do support those actions.

You can rant after.

JeffR
You are in no position to declare what the majority opinion is about me. And I don’t give a flying fuck either way.

It’s obvious you don’t entertain competing opinions. No one could be as “reckless” without tuning out.

JeffR[/quote]

Let me sumn it up effR.
For you, Israel are the choosen people. They can get away with anything, because their god told them they could.
But if you let go of that concept, and you consider them to be equal to every human being, than all of a sudden everything starts to make sence.

Everybody is up in arms against Hezbollah. They fire rockets into Israel. They kill people. They shouldn’t do that.
Israel shells and bombs Lebanese cities. They kill 10 times the number of civlians. But you somehow justify that and cheer them on.

Why?