Will Israel Win The War?

[quote]eic wrote:
The thing that is easily forgotten is that in the UN, aside from those few with the veto power, every country gets an equal vote no matter how small or insignificant. There are several western countries with a spine (United States, UK, Australia, etc.) and lots of “western” countries somewhere in the middle (Germany, Italy, France, etc.). But a significant number of countries in the UN are Islamic (and many of those are Arab Islamic countries). The point is that there are a lot of tiny pro-Islamic nations that have absolutely no real impact on the world other than to vote in favor of Islamic nations at the UN.

How else can you explain why the UN would waste even a moment to comdemn Israel when the UN never did a damn thing about Rawanda and hasn’t done shit about Darfur? You get hundreds of thousands of people literally being slaughtered with machetes and gang raped and the UN doesn’t do a fucking thing. Israel tries to protect its northern border by attacking the positions of terrorists and kill some civilians* in the process and the UN is up in arms. It makes no sense unless your believe the UN itself is NOT neutral and instead reflects the politics of its member nations, many of which are Islamic.

*By the way, since this is not a conventional conflict, many of the casualties reported as “civilians” are no doubt members of Hezbollah. Remember that Israel is not attacking people who have enough decency to wear uniforms. Israel is attacking terrorists who are virutally indistinguishable–intetionally so–from the true civilian population. We know this because 19 “civilians” boarded our planes on the morning of Sept. 11, 2001. So when Israel kills “civilians,” you might wonder how many of those are terrorist thugs and how many are truly–and unfortunately–innocent men, women, and children. [/quote]

eic, you make some good points.

Why should the world worry about Darfur? The Janjaweed killers are Muslims. They slaughter black African tribespeople. The victims are not Muslim.

There are countless thousands of victims but no one cares. The international media and United Nations turn a blind eye and allow ethnic cleansing … genocide even … because the money and power lies in Muslim hands.

The fact that there have been fewer Israeli civilian casualties is not because of any purity of intention from Hizballah’s side, but because Iran and Syria have not yet supplied Hizballah with more deadly weapons, or have not yet permitted Hizballah to use the most deadly weapons. Israeli casualties are also fewer because ever since the first Gulf War, when skuds were fired into Israel, Israeli buildings have, by law, to be built with bomb shelters. So far Hizballah has fired more than 2000 rockets into Israel, all of them aimed at civilian centres of population, and designed to intimidate and terrorise. As it is, Hizballah has been packing its missiles with ball bearings - useless against military targets, but designed to maximise civilian casualties, in the same way that Palestininan suicide bombers regularly stuff their explosives with nuts and bolts to achieve the same effect. It is horrible … terrible … that children are being killed and we should, rightly, be upset about it. We should not see the one side as villains and the other as innocents. Yes, the kids caught up in it are innocents. Their caregivers, who should know better, are not necessarily equally innocent. They, after all, let them sleep with rockets. We shouldn’t forget that Hizballah deliberately places its rocket launchers, and its ordnance, in civilian areas knowing that civilian deaths are a political disaster for Israel.

This is a disaster for the vast majority of innocent Lebanese who watch mainly the southern bit of their country (from the Litani river south to the Israeli border) being torn up in a fight between Hizballah and Israel. Is was Hizballah which launched a raid into Israel, kidnapped 2 soldiers and killed others. In other words “they started it.” One suspects that their timing was orchestrated by Iran in order to deflect attention from its nuclear weapons programme. Israel’s reaction may have been ‘disproportionate,’ but what were they meant to do? Sit back and watch rockets rain on the northern bit of their country? How do you root out terrorists who shoot at you from the protective embrace of women’s skirts and and the shield of little children? Or do you sit and do nothing as your innocent women and children are being killed in their homes?

I believe that our children will not be afforded the luxury of neutrality in this issue and that Islamic imperialism is a huge, and growing, global problem. The clerics sitting in the mosques of Damascus, Tehran and Mecca still speak of the ‘tragedy’ of their loss of Spain and seek to regain the Iberian Peninsula (at the very least). A mere 500 years has passed! (Ironically 1492 saw the fall of Granada AND the expulsion of the Jews from Spain). The Wahhabi nutters fund, and build mosques and madrassas across the world. Unfortunately they aren’t propagating the ‘world-view’ of Islam subscribed to - and contributed to - by, inter alia, Averroes (Ibn Rushd), Avicenna, (Ibn Sina), Al-Khayyam, Abulcasis (among many others).

[quote]Wreckless wrote:
Zap Branigan wrote:

Amen. The UN has chosen sides in this war.

Well, so did Israel.

See, I can make a stupid remark just like you.

Can you imagine that perhaps the Chinese were a little bit pissed that their UN-observer got killed?

You probably can’t. So lets make it easier for you. How would it feel if a US observer got killed?

These are unarmed UN-observers. So don’t expect them to fight Hezbollah. Or to prevent them from launching any rockets.

Also, don’t say some civilian casualties. The majority of the casualties are civlian. So either those Israeli are piss-poor shots, or they simply don’t give a fuck and fire on anything that moves.
[/quote]

God you are dumb. Of course Israel is on their own side. The UN is supposed to be impartial but they are not.

One of the observers that was killed sent an email to his commander saying that Hezbollah was firing on the Israeli’s from near the UN position and Israel was firing back.

He said Israel was NOT targeting their position.

Of course Kofi Annan ignored the email and claimed the Israelis were targeting the UN position.

[quote]rainjack wrote:
Wreckless wrote:
Bush doesn’t have the balls to stand up against the pro-Israel lobby. And if he was really concerned about peace in the ME or about Israel, he would tell them to stop bombing. He wouldn’t give them a free hand in Lebanon and he wouldn’t give them a free pass on bombing that UN outpost.

But like I said, the tough-talking cowboy simply doesn’t have the balls.

The President IS pro-Israel. Why would he want to stand up against something he is for?

… [/quote]

Wreckless is so dumb he makes my brain hurt.

I cannot begin to understand his complete lack of logic.

[quote]coolexec wrote:

Why should the world worry about Darfur? The Janjaweed killers are Muslims. They slaughter black African tribespeople. The victims are not Muslim.

There are countless thousands of victims but no one cares. The international media and United Nations turn a blind eye and allow ethnic cleansing … genocide even … because the money and power lies in Muslim hands.

The fact that there have been fewer Israeli civilian casualties is not because of any purity of intention from Hizballah’s side, but because Iran and Syria have not yet supplied Hizballah with more deadly weapons, or have not yet permitted Hizballah to use the most deadly weapons. Israeli casualties are also fewer because ever since the first Gulf War, when skuds were fired into Israel, Israeli buildings have, by law, to be built with bomb shelters. So far Hizballah has fired more than 2000 rockets into Israel, all of them aimed at civilian centres of population, and designed to intimidate and terrorise. As it is, Hizballah has been packing its missiles with ball bearings - useless against military targets, but designed to maximise civilian casualties, in the same way that Palestininan suicide bombers regularly stuff their explosives with nuts and bolts to achieve the same effect. It is horrible … terrible … that children are being killed and we should, rightly, be upset about it. We should not see the one side as villains and the other as innocents. Yes, the kids caught up in it are innocents. Their caregivers, who should know better, are not necessarily equally innocent. They, after all, let them sleep with rockets. We shouldn’t forget that Hizballah deliberately places its rocket launchers, and its ordnance, in civilian areas knowing that civilian deaths are a political disaster for Israel.

This is a disaster for the vast majority of innocent Lebanese who watch mainly the southern bit of their country (from the Litani river south to the Israeli border) being torn up in a fight between Hizballah and Israel. Is was Hizballah which launched a raid into Israel, kidnapped 2 soldiers and killed others. In other words “they started it.” One suspects that their timing was orchestrated by Iran in order to deflect attention from its nuclear weapons programme. Israel’s reaction may have been ‘disproportionate,’ but what were they meant to do? Sit back and watch rockets rain on the northern bit of their country? How do you root out terrorists who shoot at you from the protective embrace of women’s skirts and and the shield of little children? Or do you sit and do nothing as your innocent women and children are being killed in their homes?

I believe that our children will not be afforded the luxury of neutrality in this issue and that Islamic imperialism is a huge, and growing, global problem. The clerics sitting in the mosques of Damascus, Tehran and Mecca still speak of the ‘tragedy’ of their loss of Spain and seek to regain the Iberian Peninsula (at the very least). A mere 500 years has passed! (Ironically 1492 saw the fall of Granada AND the expulsion of the Jews from Spain). The Wahhabi nutters fund, and build mosques and madrassas across the world. Unfortunately they aren’t propagating the ‘world-view’ of Islam subscribed to - and contributed to - by, inter alia, Averroes (Ibn Rushd), Avicenna, (Ibn Sina), Al-Khayyam, Abulcasis (among many others).
[/quote]

You made SOME good points, and others were embarrasingly ignorant. Darfur etc- You stupid evil bastard.

Hezbollah in civilan areas- good point, true, that is wrong.

Israel can’t stop terrorism. who can? No-one. How do you kill a vengeful idea? Ask the jews of Israel. Funny you should mention the Iberian peninsula (by the way, have you been spending much time in the mosques of Tehran, Damascus et al?)
Spaniards still speak of ‘El Desastre’. Americans still teach of the war of Independance. English schools still teach about Henry VIII. The whole zionist program was worryingly based upon a 2000 years+ grudge. It was not the arabs of Palestine/Lebanon who kicked out the jews from that region. Yet zionism is what is happening out there now. I know many jews, who, being spiritual and compassionate people, disagree entirely with zionism. There is plenty of room for everyone in the world.

I don’t know about this Muslim empire you speak of, they are reproducing at an incredible rate, while all but the most conservative (read- submissive) Muslim states are being dramatically fucked by every other group except maybe the Buddhists and jainists.

In a few years there will be so many muslims in the world you couldn’t hope to contain them. I don’t intend to convert. Maybe we should stop rubbing their noses in the shit of history, one day they may be actually powerful enough to retaliate with some weapons similar to the Wests’.
To ignore the muslim birthrate, and the nature of zionism, not to mention the siezure of many religiously significant sites which were until recently in the Muslim world’s possession, you are pulling the tail of a cat which will grow up to be a lion. America isn’t shit, europe isn’t shit. If muslim clerics REALLY had the capacity to turn all muslims against all non-muslims, we’d all be dead by now. Let’s not be arrogant in our war-starting and international ‘diplomacy’

danny and reckless:

Let’s get down to the root of the issue:

Do you support hezbollah’s decision to target civilians?

Do you support them ambushing Israeli soldiers to start this war?

I want yes or no answers to start out, please. Please directly answer these two questions. If you duck them, I will assume that you do support those actions.

As it stands, the majority opinion is that you do support those actions.

You can rant after.

JeffR

[quote]Zap Branigan wrote:
Wreckless is so dumb he makes my brain hurt.

I cannot begin to understand his complete lack of logic.
[/quote]

Zap, I must add an addendum. reckless is a malignant Anti-American.

His hate colors everything he writes. His brain doesn’t have a chance.

Therefore, I’m not sure if he is trully “dumb.” It’s hard to tell.

JeffR

http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/israel/index.html

http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/lebanon/index.html

The hisory secton on Lebanon is good.

from strategypage:

The Phony War
July 31, 2006:

The Hizbollah tactic of firing rockets from residential areas, and forcing civilians to stick around when the rockets are fired, has paid off. One rocket launching site in a large building in southern Lebanon, for which Israel released video of rockets being launched, before bombing the building, turned out to contain over fifty women and children. The civilians know that the Israelis bomb any place where rockets are fired from, but Hizbollah gunmen will force the civilians to stay. This has caused many Lebanese, even Shia in the south, to turn against Hizbollah. Some journalists have even been able to get out of Lebanon with pictures of this, but most of the world media prefers to call Israeli response to Hizbollah attacks a war crime and leave it at that. This is going to be one of those situations where, down the road, historians are going to wonder just what the world was thinking during all this.

While Hizbollah is good at getting Lebanese civilians killed, they are not very effective at hurting Israelis. Engineer and intelligence troops have identified less than a hundred rockets landing in Israel each day so far. This is done by collecting and identifying fragments. But as time goes by, more rocket hits are discovered in unpopulated areas of northern Israel. Apparently more than a hundred rockets are landing in northern Israel each day, but on many days, only a few dozen land anywhere near residential areas. Many of the rocket salvos (two dozen or more 122mm rockets are being fired at a time) are not aimed very well at all, and don’t come down anywhere near to an Israeli settlement. This is why there has been less than one Israeli casualty per rocket fired. This casualty rate has been coming down. One recent barrage of 25 122mm rockets landed in an Israeli town and caused no casualties at all (but damaged several buildings).

The Israelis keep civilian casualties down by having better bomb shelters, using them more effectively and evacuating many of the more exposed towns in northern Israel. Since Israel is a democracy, the government has to do all it can to minimize its civilian casualties. Hizbollah is not a democracy, but a religious dictatorship (trying to bring that form of government to Lebanon, and then the world.) Hizbollah considers itself on a mission from God, and within its rights to kill anyone, and do anything, to complete its mission. Thus the policy of getting the maximum number of Lebanese civilians killed. European and Moslem media have taken the bait, and are calling Israeli responses, to Hizbollah attacks, “war crimes.”

Israeli ground operations appear to be using paratroopers and other elite infantry to hunt down and kill Hizbollah rocket launching teams. Hizbollah has not got a lot of trained people. Kill them, and they are hard to replace. There are only so many rocket launcher teams. Kill them, and no one will be available to take the rockets out of their hiding places and launch them. Right now, this battle is being won by the Israelis, because Hizbollah has not been able to launch many longer (over 20 kilometers) rockets at more densely populated areas deeper in Israel. Most of the rockets are short range ones. The Israeli attack on the transportation system in southern Lebanon has made it difficult to move large objects, like big rockets, into position for launch.

Israel agreed to a 40 hour halt to air attacks on the 30th, to provide time to investigate the bombing the day before that killed over fifty civilians at a Hizbollah launching site. This is supposed to give Hizbollah an opportunity to reciprocate. But Hizbollah has more pressing problems. While the Lebanese media won’t discuss it much, most Lebanese are quite angry with Hizbollah. The stories, of how Hizbollah forces civilians to stay around rocket launch sites, are now widely known. Israeli intelligence agents in Lebanon are getting more good tips on Hizbollah activity, especially within Christian areas. The Lebanese Christians know they are considered eventual targets (as infidels) of Hizbollah, and have noted Hizbollah men joking about getting the “Jews to do our work for us” (killing Lebanese Christians.)

The main problem in Lebanon is, and always has been, that the civil war never really ended in 1990, especially not for the Shia faction represented by Hizbollah. Iran accepted the 1990 ceasefire in Lebanon under pressure from the rest of the Moslem world. But while Hizbollah entered Lebanese politics in the 1990s, they never disarmed their militia, supported the continued Syrian occupation of Lebanon, and did not recognize the authority of the Lebanese government, in portions of southern Lebanon that Hizbollah controlled.

Israel is not giving detailed briefings on its tactics and exactly what its forces have accomplished so far. That’s because this war is largely a psychological one. It’s also an Information War, where the manipulation of the media is an important aspect of the fight. In this respect, Hizbollah has an edge, because most of the Moslem and European media will automatically side with them against Israel. That said, the Israeli strategy appears to be the destruction of people and material that Hizbollah will have the most difficulty replacing, and weakening Hizbollah enough so that the majority of Lebanese, and the Lebanese government, can regain control of southern Lebanon (and Hizbollah controlled Beirut neighborhoods), that Hizbollah has controlled for decades. If Lebanon can put itself back together, Hizbollah will be much less of a threat. Because this conflict is also seen as another battle in the thousand year old war between Sunni and Shia, most Arabs, while cheering for Hizbollah, because they are armed Arabs who did not go down before the Israeli in the first round, will not be terribly upset if Hizbollah ultimately loses and disappears.

[quote]ChuckyT wrote:
Wreckless wrote:
rainjack wrote:
I hereby declare you a pest that needs to be exterminated.

You’re so stupid. We can’t take the risk of you having offspring.

Good thing that the Belgian military is a total joke incapable of stopping traffic let alone killing an American citizen.

I think the Texas bar drunks at the local dive near where Rainjack lives could stop the entire Belgian army from getting him. [/quote]

You’re missing the point. The point was that anybody who thinks other people are pests, to be exterminated, only de-humanizes himself.
Perhaps that was over your head?
Perhaps you have been drinking to much with rainjack in his Texas bars?

[quote]Zap Branigan wrote:
Wreckless wrote:
Zap Branigan wrote:

Amen. The UN has chosen sides in this war.

Well, so did Israel.

See, I can make a stupid remark just like you.

Can you imagine that perhaps the Chinese were a little bit pissed that their UN-observer got killed?

You probably can’t. So lets make it easier for you. How would it feel if a US observer got killed?

These are unarmed UN-observers. So don’t expect them to fight Hezbollah. Or to prevent them from launching any rockets.

Also, don’t say some civilian casualties. The majority of the casualties are civlian. So either those Israeli are piss-poor shots, or they simply don’t give a fuck and fire on anything that moves.

God you are dumb. Of course Israel is on their own side. The UN is supposed to be impartial but they are not.

One of the observers that was killed sent an email to his commander saying that Hezbollah was firing on the Israeli’s from near the UN position and Israel was firing back.

He said Israel was NOT targeting their position.

Of course Kofi Annan ignored the email and claimed the Israelis were targeting the UN position.

[/quote]

No, I pretended to be as dumb as you are.

But if you think that the impartial position of the UN doesn’t allow them to protest if a UN outpost gets hit, I probably should have tried harder.

Tell me Zap, was the UN outpost hit? Or wasn’t it?

And if it was hit, with all the precision and intelligence that the Israeli have, do you think it was an accidental hit?

It wouldn’t be the first time you know, that the IDF deliberately targets UN outposts. Or US vessels for that matter.

[quote]Zap Branigan wrote:
rainjack wrote:
Wreckless wrote:
Bush doesn’t have the balls to stand up against the pro-Israel lobby. And if he was really concerned about peace in the ME or about Israel, he would tell them to stop bombing. He wouldn’t give them a free hand in Lebanon and he wouldn’t give them a free pass on bombing that UN outpost.

But like I said, the tough-talking cowboy simply doesn’t have the balls.

The President IS pro-Israel. Why would he want to stand up against something he is for?

Wreckless is so dumb he makes my brain hurt.

I cannot begin to understand his complete lack of logic.
[/quote]

Oh, but it’s easy. I’ll let you in on a little trick. I turn your own lack of logic back on you.
You didn’t recognise the stupidity when you dished it out. But when I fling it back in your face, that all of a sudden you recognise.
But you’re to stupid to recognise it as your own, therefore you think I’m stupid.

This coming from a man that believes the UN can’t protest if the Israeli target a UN outpost, because they’re supposed to be impartial.

No.
No. That isn’t how it went down. When has violence ceased among Israel and pro-arab terrorists stopped in the last sixty years, enough to declare there is no war?
Hezbollah kidnapped 2 soldiers, Israel’s retaliation (and the 2-way fight which has resulted) has led to 600 dead.
Fuck majority opinion.

Read whatever i write in its entirety. It will be the length it is for a reason- fluency. There is no abstract or blurb (sorry). If you miss a sentence, you’ll miss a point, and mis-understand. I can’t speak for any other. How about you?
Are you so intimidated you have to limit replies to single-answers?

I’d like to make what wreckless said just a moment ago more clear- Israel has admitted before that as in the past it was subject to the will of the nation-states it inhabited, Israel would never accept external influence (David Ben Gurion. And, they haven’t. Since the USS Liberty was bombed, strangely, the USA haven’t told Israel to do anything that Israel didn’t tell USA it was going to do anyway.

This kind of arrogance makes life much harder, for yourself. Agreed, i think. I’ll act a bit more arrogant and see how many people assent to my will. Not many i bet. Basically, this experiment is a good one. If all of you don’t agree to everything i say, soon, you are proving that Israel’s method of pushing harder each time there’s resistance doesn’t work. Fuckers. I run shit. You can have water, but it’ll cost you. If you slur my name or fire a rocket at me, i’ll destroy the entire town you live in. If you put up a feeble offensive, i’ll crush your petty opinions (this is true anyway).

I wish i could act like that in real life. I can’t. Just because many of you obviously see your whole ideology being systematically destroyed by superior learning and reasoned arguing, and can now only sling insults/unsubstantiated opinions in return, I can’t just ‘crush you’. You would never admit something alien to you, i think, and would certainly not lay down in supplication if i acted like Israel does, you’d resist. There’s no mystery. Like i said, it’s cause and effect, if you don’t want the effect, a good start would be to remove the cause. You obviously don’t understand the causes of terrorism. You must unless you want it to remain forever (to simply hate it, and try to crush it, is not enough).
I don’t deny that the terrorism of the Islamic groups is terrible, and must be stopped. You people who are confounded by mature, objective-as-possible discussion of the causes and solutions, should start a thread titled ‘fucking arab bastards’ and just post obscenities in there

[quote]JeffR wrote:
danny and reckless:

Let’s get down to the root of the issue:

Do you support hezbollah’s decision to target civilians? [/quote]

No, I don’t. But do you support Israels decision to target civilians?

[quote]
Do you support them ambushing Israeli soldiers to start this war? [/quote]
I don’t think that started this war. But I don’t support the abduction of Israeli soldiers. Do you support the strangelation of the entire Palestinian people in the Gaza strip and the West-Bank. Because THAT’S what started this war you know.

[quote]
I want yes or no answers to start out, please. Please directly answer these two questions. If you duck them, I will assume that you do support those actions.[/quote]
Please return the favor. Simple answers to simple questions please.

[quote]
As it stands, the majority opinion is that you do support those actions.

You can rant after.

JeffR[/quote]
You are in no position to declare what the majority opinion is about me. And I don’t give a flying fuck either way.

[quote]JeffR wrote:
Zap Branigan wrote:
Wreckless is so dumb he makes my brain hurt.

I cannot begin to understand his complete lack of logic.

Zap, I must add an addendum. reckless is a malignant Anti-American.

His hate colors everything he writes. His brain doesn’t have a chance.

Therefore, I’m not sure if he is trully “dumb.” It’s hard to tell.

JeffR

[/quote]

When your brain hurts it means it’s waking up from hibernation.

I’m glad it’s not just me wreckless. Maybe nort American nationalism is particularly strong, and leads to hostility to alternate ideologies.

I have sung ‘god save the queen’ maybe only 6 times in my life. I hear they have to sing it every day. But that’s not propaganda- oh no- that’s patriotism. Do you know there is no objective distinction between patriotism and nationalism at all? Only one term is used for a familiar, and another used for ‘others’ who are disagreeable.

I’m glad at least wreckless knows that there were things going on in Israel/Palestine before this little conflict.

[quote]hedo wrote:
from strategypage:

The Phony War
July 31, 2006:

…[/quote]

Good article.

[quote]Wreckless wrote:

Tell me Zap, was the UN outpost hit? Or wasn’t it?
…[/quote]

The point is that Hezbollah was hiding behind the UN post.

The guys that were killed warned of this in the email.

They said Israel was NOT trageting their post but feared they would be hit because Hezbollah was hiding behind them in a firefight.

Kofi Annan lied and claimed Israel was targeting the UN post.

You are repeating the lie.

Wreckless and Dannyrat it is hard to give respect to what you say. Wreckless is from Belgium, which, as I said earlier, is no different that France except that it is even more worthless. And Dannyrat, before you started talking about “stone” or the Queen I knew you were a left-wing Brit; I could smell it.

The funny thing is that one or both you spoke of the growing Muslim menace in the world that is going to be too much for the West to handle some day. Well, seeing as how virtually every western European country has huge Muslim populations that do nothing more than reproduce and populate your ghettos I can understand where that is coming from. Your countries sold themselves to devil a long time ago and will likely rot from the inside out unless something changes. Us Americans on the other hand are doing something about it.

Let me say that there is one element which utterly defeats anything either of you can say about Israel. Israel wasn’t even a country for a week before it was attacked by all of the Arab nations that surround it. How could Israel have done anything even remotely offensive in a few days time that would warrant such an attack? The answer, of course, is that Israel did nothing more than EXIST!!! Clearly then this is not a history of tit-for-tat but a history of one side trying to eliminate the other and the other fighting for survival.

BTW, that war and the Six-Day War is how the Palestinians found themselves without a home: When their Arab “brothers” attacked and had their asses handed to them by a tiny country, the Palestianians (really just Syrians who lived in Gaza and the West Bank) found themselves without a home. Of course, you’d think that the Arab countries would try to help their “brothers” out by assimilating them into their countries and giving them jobs, stipends, etc. But have they done so? Hell no. Instead, Palestinians sit in refugee camps TO THIS DAY!!!

Why won’t the Arab countries help their brothers out? Because that would evaporate any excuse the Arabs would have for their continued hatred of Israel.

What neither of you understand is the Arab-Muslim mentality (my father is Iranian). Since the '70s you’ve seen nothing else in Israel but a steady decline in the amount of land that Israel occupied. You will remember the expression “land for peace.” Israel followed that path until you get to the present situation where all of the occupied lands were returned except for land in the West Bank. Was that good enough for those in Gaza and those in Lebanon? Nope, not good enough; so Israel, after trying the land-for-peace route and being snubbed is understandably pissed.

You both mentioned Rabin. He was shot by an extremist-Israeli. The difference between the Rabin and Sadat situation is that (1) the person who shot Rabin represents a very extreme viewpoint that is openly and harshly condemned; and (2) the shooting of Rabin did not lead to a revolution of sorts. Also, it is a rarity in Israel’s history, whereas violent upheavals and assassinations are the norm in the Muslim world.

You both criticize me and others on this thread for our blind adherence to the actions of Israel and the United States; but you are just as dogmatic about your own viewpoints. I guess time will tell who is right and who is wrong. One difference might be that I am ready and willing to lay my life on the line for what I believe in… Are you?

[quote]Zap Branigan wrote:
Wreckless wrote:

Tell me Zap, was the UN outpost hit? Or wasn’t it?

The point is that Hezbollah was hiding behind the UN post.

The guys that were killed warned of this in the email.

They said Israel was NOT trageting their post but feared they would be hit because Hezbollah was hiding behind them in a firefight.

Kofi Annan lied and claimed Israel was targeting the UN post.

You are repeating the lie.

[/quote]

How easy it is for you to claim you know the truth, and that those who don’t agree with you must be lying.

You are the liar. You claim to know things while you have no way of knowing them.

[quote]eic wrote:
Wreckless and Dannyrat it is hard to give respect to what you say. Wreckless is from Belgium, which, as I said earlier, is no different that France except that it is even more worthless. And Dannyrat, before you started talking about “stone” or the Queen I knew you were a left-wing Brit; I could smell it.
[/quote]

Please crawl back under your rock.

You wanna know a funny thing eic. We don’t have rampant poverty here in our small corner of the world.

And we don’t have people teaching creationism either. We’re not some backward country.
You are.

Please, crawl back under your rock.

[quote]
You both criticize me and others on this thread for our blind adherence to the actions of Israel and the United States; but you are just as dogmatic about your own viewpoints. I guess time will tell who is right and who is wrong. One difference might be that I am ready and willing to lay my life on the line for what I believe in… Are you? [/quote]

Are you enlisting? Or are you driving around with an “I support the troops” bumper sticker?