WikiLeaks...Thoughts?

Off Topic Politics & World Issues
161

[quote]swoleupinya wrote:

What excellent point?

That he, Rush, can’t make an argument without first presenting a straw man to knock down?

So, let me get this straight… First he implies that all liberals support Wikileaks. Then, he implies that Wikilieaks actively seeks out information. Then, he implies that Assange has somehow failed in his mission because he hasn’t produced anything supporting some of the more extreme claims made by a few liberals over the years.

WTF?

This is your idea of an excellent point?

This is a straw man, standing on a house of cards, smoking a cigarette…

You may not realize this, but Assange is a libertarian. He hardly has a duty to any political ideology or party in his work, nor has he ever claimed that he does. Also, Wikileaks are a passive receiver of information. They do not solicit leaks.

Lastly, Rush Limbaugh is a fucking tool. Elaborating on what I said above, he has made a career out of arguing against straw men. [/quote]

No, not exactly the point, but yes in that where’s all the juicy stuff that I keep reading about? I don’t think I heard anywhere in Rush’s commentary about wikileaks actively searching out the most damning information they can find about American government - however, I have read in many other websites I visit comments about how wikileaks does have all kinds of sensitive and top-secret information like the 9/11 investigation, government sanctioned assassinations, nuclear proliferation, a secret war between the U.S. and China.

I’m not saying that Rush is dead-on in his analysis, or that Assange has any sort of agenda, just thought Rush made a good point about something I do know exists.

162

Assange update.
Arrested in UK, will be held for a hearing on teh 14th.

163

[quote]swoleupinya wrote:

[quote]brnforce wrote:

[quote]swoleupinya wrote:

[quote]skaz05 wrote:

[quote]PB Andy wrote:
It seems that Assange revealed this classified information FOR THE SAKE OF REVEALING CLASSIFIED INFORMATION, not for transparency in the government or getting rid of corruption. This to me just shows Assange is an egotistical fuckhead and is revealing classified information to make a name for himself and for WikiLeaks… regardless of how he thinks what he is doing is ethical.[/quote]

This is similar to what I was thinking about the latest “leaks”. It seems like he’s just doing this to do it, and to be a troll. I was just afraid to post my real thoughts because I know there are a lot of the “blame America first” crowd on this forum, so whatever makes America look bad is A.O.K.[/quote]

Or, as I pointed out before, there is some information in this list that the world might find interesting. Maybe there are questions that should be asked about the list.

For instance: Why is the transatlantic fiber-optic cable owned by one corporation that happens to be based in fucking Dubai considered a national security asset when a similar and arguably higher traffic-bearing cable owned by a domestic corporation NOT on the list.

Think critically. [/quote]

Ummmmmm UAE is a big ally of the US. They have a lot of businesses in the US. Think critically about you misconceptions about Arabic countries.[/quote]

I’m very aware of the relationship between Dubai and the US, and as far as I can tell I have stated no irrational misconceptions about Arabic countries. Feel free to make a straw man of me, though.

In the world of telecommunications, being headquartered in Dubai is synonymous with being a tax-evader on multiple continents. It is also a pretty good bet that any telecom company with multinational operations headquartered in Dubai is skirting embargoes, doing business with shady governments, etc… Even more importantly, traffic routed through Dubai is invariably open to nearly limitless tapping. [/quote]

Yes, Dubai has set itself up as a tax shelter state for businesses. I think this is smart and a great thing. As for the tapping… It is the same almost anywhere else in the world too. Nice attempt at a side-step though.

164

[quote]skaz05 wrote:

[quote]swoleupinya wrote:

What excellent point?

That he, Rush, can’t make an argument without first presenting a straw man to knock down?

So, let me get this straight… First he implies that all liberals support Wikileaks. Then, he implies that Wikilieaks actively seeks out information. Then, he implies that Assange has somehow failed in his mission because he hasn’t produced anything supporting some of the more extreme claims made by a few liberals over the years.

WTF?

This is your idea of an excellent point?

This is a straw man, standing on a house of cards, smoking a cigarette…

You may not realize this, but Assange is a libertarian. He hardly has a duty to any political ideology or party in his work, nor has he ever claimed that he does. Also, Wikileaks are a passive receiver of information. They do not solicit leaks.

Lastly, Rush Limbaugh is a fucking tool. Elaborating on what I said above, he has made a career out of arguing against straw men. [/quote]

No, not exactly the point, but yes in that where’s all the juicy stuff that I keep reading about? I don’t think I heard anywhere in Rush’s commentary about wikileaks actively searching out the most damning information they can find about American government - however, I have read in many other websites I visit comments about how wikileaks does have all kinds of sensitive and top-secret information like the 9/11 investigation, government sanctioned assassinations, nuclear proliferation, a secret war between the U.S. and China.

I’m not saying that Rush is dead-on in his analysis, or that Assange has any sort of agenda, just thought Rush made a good point about something I do know exists.[/quote]

What credible website has information regarding these documents?

The whole point of that ridiculous rant was to align Assange and liberals in the minds of Rush’s listeners. And, more than once he clearly stated that if Assange couldn’t produce proof of certain conspiracy theories that he was “not doing his job.”

Rush Limbaugh presents such a convoluted and deceptive rhetorical style that it shocks me how many people fall for it.

165

[quote]MattyG35 wrote:
Assange update.
Arrested in UK, will be held for a hearing on teh 14th.

If only it was a different country that had him. Then he could disappear.

166

[quote]brnforce wrote:

[quote]MattyG35 wrote:
Assange update.
Arrested in UK, will be held for a hearing on teh 14th.

If only it was a different country that had him. Then he could disappear. [/quote]

Thanks for the stupid comment, now fuck off.

167

[quote]brnforce wrote:

[quote]swoleupinya wrote:

[quote]brnforce wrote:

[quote]swoleupinya wrote:

[quote]skaz05 wrote:

[quote]PB Andy wrote:
It seems that Assange revealed this classified information FOR THE SAKE OF REVEALING CLASSIFIED INFORMATION, not for transparency in the government or getting rid of corruption. This to me just shows Assange is an egotistical fuckhead and is revealing classified information to make a name for himself and for WikiLeaks… regardless of how he thinks what he is doing is ethical.[/quote]

This is similar to what I was thinking about the latest “leaks”. It seems like he’s just doing this to do it, and to be a troll. I was just afraid to post my real thoughts because I know there are a lot of the “blame America first” crowd on this forum, so whatever makes America look bad is A.O.K.[/quote]

Or, as I pointed out before, there is some information in this list that the world might find interesting. Maybe there are questions that should be asked about the list.

For instance: Why is the transatlantic fiber-optic cable owned by one corporation that happens to be based in fucking Dubai considered a national security asset when a similar and arguably higher traffic-bearing cable owned by a domestic corporation NOT on the list.

Think critically. [/quote]

Ummmmmm UAE is a big ally of the US. They have a lot of businesses in the US. Think critically about you misconceptions about Arabic countries.[/quote]

I’m very aware of the relationship between Dubai and the US, and as far as I can tell I have stated no irrational misconceptions about Arabic countries. Feel free to make a straw man of me, though.

In the world of telecommunications, being headquartered in Dubai is synonymous with being a tax-evader on multiple continents. It is also a pretty good bet that any telecom company with multinational operations headquartered in Dubai is skirting embargoes, doing business with shady governments, etc… Even more importantly, traffic routed through Dubai is invariably open to nearly limitless tapping. [/quote]

Yes, Dubai has set itself up as a tax shelter state for businesses. I think this is smart and a great thing. As for the tapping… It is the same almost anywhere else in the world too. Nice attempt at a side-step though.[/quote]

And… good job avoiding the primary point.

And, no… tapping is not the same almost anywhere else in the world. The reason it is different is because there are massive redundancies in fiber capacity running through Dubai that essentially mirror many of the major international cable crossings. This capacity is used by various private organizations and governments to monitor said crossings. Governments like ours can pretty easily circumvent our privacy laws and peer deeply into some of the major networks.

Again, it’s ironic that the few cable crossings that don’t follow this model weren’t on the list.

Of course. I could just be an ignorant xenophobe who doesn’t know what the fuck he’s taking about.

168

[quote]MattyG35 wrote:

[quote]brnforce wrote:

[quote]MattyG35 wrote:
Assange update.
Arrested in UK, will be held for a hearing on teh 14th.

If only it was a different country that had him. Then he could disappear. [/quote]

Thanks for the stupid comment, now fuck off.[/quote]

Hahaha I’ve expressed my opinion on that idiot. How about you stop PMSing and actually express yourself instead of reverting back to tourettes?

169

[quote]swoleupinya wrote:

[quote]brnforce wrote:

[quote]swoleupinya wrote:

[quote]brnforce wrote:

[quote]swoleupinya wrote:

[quote]skaz05 wrote:

[quote]PB Andy wrote:
It seems that Assange revealed this classified information FOR THE SAKE OF REVEALING CLASSIFIED INFORMATION, not for transparency in the government or getting rid of corruption. This to me just shows Assange is an egotistical fuckhead and is revealing classified information to make a name for himself and for WikiLeaks… regardless of how he thinks what he is doing is ethical.[/quote]

This is similar to what I was thinking about the latest “leaks”. It seems like he’s just doing this to do it, and to be a troll. I was just afraid to post my real thoughts because I know there are a lot of the “blame America first” crowd on this forum, so whatever makes America look bad is A.O.K.[/quote]

Or, as I pointed out before, there is some information in this list that the world might find interesting. Maybe there are questions that should be asked about the list.

For instance: Why is the transatlantic fiber-optic cable owned by one corporation that happens to be based in fucking Dubai considered a national security asset when a similar and arguably higher traffic-bearing cable owned by a domestic corporation NOT on the list.

Think critically. [/quote]

Ummmmmm UAE is a big ally of the US. They have a lot of businesses in the US. Think critically about you misconceptions about Arabic countries.[/quote]

I’m very aware of the relationship between Dubai and the US, and as far as I can tell I have stated no irrational misconceptions about Arabic countries. Feel free to make a straw man of me, though.

In the world of telecommunications, being headquartered in Dubai is synonymous with being a tax-evader on multiple continents. It is also a pretty good bet that any telecom company with multinational operations headquartered in Dubai is skirting embargoes, doing business with shady governments, etc… Even more importantly, traffic routed through Dubai is invariably open to nearly limitless tapping. [/quote]

Yes, Dubai has set itself up as a tax shelter state for businesses. I think this is smart and a great thing. As for the tapping… It is the same almost anywhere else in the world too. Nice attempt at a side-step though.[/quote]

And… good job avoiding the primary point.

And, no… tapping is not the same almost anywhere else in the world. The reason it is different is because there are massive redundancies in fiber capacity running through Dubai that essentially mirror many of the major international cable crossings. This capacity is used by various private organizations and governments to monitor said crossings. Governments like ours can pretty easily circumvent our privacy laws and peer deeply into some of the major networks.

Again, it’s ironic that the few cable crossings that don’t follow this model weren’t on the list.

Of course. I could just be an ignorant xenophobe who doesn’t know what the fuck he’s taking about.
[/quote]

Haha sorry for initially misunderstanding your point. I do think that most countries can circumvent any system to tap into that information and that most do.

170

[quote]brnforce wrote:

[quote]swoleupinya wrote:

[quote]brnforce wrote:

[quote]swoleupinya wrote:

[quote]brnforce wrote:

[quote]swoleupinya wrote:

[quote]skaz05 wrote:

[quote]PB Andy wrote:
It seems that Assange revealed this classified information FOR THE SAKE OF REVEALING CLASSIFIED INFORMATION, not for transparency in the government or getting rid of corruption. This to me just shows Assange is an egotistical fuckhead and is revealing classified information to make a name for himself and for WikiLeaks… regardless of how he thinks what he is doing is ethical.[/quote]

This is similar to what I was thinking about the latest “leaks”. It seems like he’s just doing this to do it, and to be a troll. I was just afraid to post my real thoughts because I know there are a lot of the “blame America first” crowd on this forum, so whatever makes America look bad is A.O.K.[/quote]

Or, as I pointed out before, there is some information in this list that the world might find interesting. Maybe there are questions that should be asked about the list.

For instance: Why is the transatlantic fiber-optic cable owned by one corporation that happens to be based in fucking Dubai considered a national security asset when a similar and arguably higher traffic-bearing cable owned by a domestic corporation NOT on the list.

Think critically. [/quote]

Ummmmmm UAE is a big ally of the US. They have a lot of businesses in the US. Think critically about you misconceptions about Arabic countries.[/quote]

I’m very aware of the relationship between Dubai and the US, and as far as I can tell I have stated no irrational misconceptions about Arabic countries. Feel free to make a straw man of me, though.

In the world of telecommunications, being headquartered in Dubai is synonymous with being a tax-evader on multiple continents. It is also a pretty good bet that any telecom company with multinational operations headquartered in Dubai is skirting embargoes, doing business with shady governments, etc… Even more importantly, traffic routed through Dubai is invariably open to nearly limitless tapping. [/quote]

Yes, Dubai has set itself up as a tax shelter state for businesses. I think this is smart and a great thing. As for the tapping… It is the same almost anywhere else in the world too. Nice attempt at a side-step though.[/quote]

And… good job avoiding the primary point.

And, no… tapping is not the same almost anywhere else in the world. The reason it is different is because there are massive redundancies in fiber capacity running through Dubai that essentially mirror many of the major international cable crossings. This capacity is used by various private organizations and governments to monitor said crossings. Governments like ours can pretty easily circumvent our privacy laws and peer deeply into some of the major networks.

Again, it’s ironic that the few cable crossings that don’t follow this model weren’t on the list.

Of course. I could just be an ignorant xenophobe who doesn’t know what the fuck he’s taking about.
[/quote]

Haha sorry for initially misunderstanding your point. I do think that most countries can circumvent any system to tap into that information and that most do.[/quote]

Thank you. I always appreciate it when someone on this forum is able to THINK!

:slight_smile:

Anyway… Dubai really is in a unique position as far as the topology of international communications traffic, and it was by design. There is one building in NYC where (at the time of 9/11) something like 93% of ALL international voice traffic routed through. I worked for a company that had an interconnect network throughout that building at the time, and it was one of the most secured buildings in NYC on that day and the weeks following… we’re talking barricades for blocks and National Guard stationed all around it.

In Dubai there is supposedly a mirror site. I can’t say with 100% certainty that the arrangement still exists, as I’ve been out of that business since around 2004. I can’t imagine it has changed that much, though.

172

[quote]Chushin wrote:

[quote]Regular Gonzalez wrote:
Yep, it should only take a few minutes. I’m not going to waste any time baby-feeding you information when you are clearly making no effort.
[/quote]
Look, you made a statement ande I asked you to back it up. You don’t want to? Fine.

[quote]Regular Gonzalez wrote:
When you say proportionate, I have to ask, proportionate to what? Population?, level of influence in world politics?
[/quote]
Just used your word. What did you mean when YOU wrote it?

[quote]Regular Gonzalez wrote:

That said, I doubt you actually realise how much sensitive information that Wikileaks has already leaked relating to countries other than the US. Just last night, the main news headline over here was about how it has been leaked that our ex prime minister told Hillary Clinton to be prepared to use force against China if necessary. This is a guy who speaks fluent Mandarin & promoted himself as someone who would be able to bridge the gap with China (who are our most important trading partner). He is also our current foreign minister & our relationship with China is probably our second most important.
[/quote]
I am aware of that. I believe it was revealed in the leaking of US CABLES, not Australian ones. Sure it “relates” to another country, but its still US intelligence.

[quote]Regular Gonzalez wrote:
Just for the record, the Australian government consider Assange to be their enemy & have already attempted to have him arrested (previous & separate to the current rape charges being thrown at him).
[/quote]

Thanks. That’s good news in my opinion.

[quote]Regular Gonzalez wrote:
How about instead of asking semi cryptic questions, you just say what you actually think. Do you believe wikileaks is a rabidly anti American website? If so, what do you think their motivation is for this stance? Do they hate the West in general, or just specifically the US?
[/quote]

I think that the guy is careful to only REALLY piss off counties that he can feel fairly certain won’t have him wiped off the face of the earth in a heartbeat. (That excludes China, Iran and Russia as far as SERIOUS leaks of major proportion go.) I think he’s part of the recent fun fad of blaming the US for each and every problem that exists anywhere in the world. I think anyone with half a brain would (or should) know that, by definition, a policy of publicizing leaks will hurt the open, democratic and somewhat accountable nations MUCH more than the closed, authoritarian rogue nations of the world; in the battle of the (relatively) good guys vs. the bad, if you will. I think that this guy is an egomaniac who feels that HE somehow has the right to expose the confidential communications of democratically-elected governments (that aren’t even his own). I think he likes playing God, and is demonstrating the belief that HE knows what’s best for the entire world.
[/quote]

Firstly, I don’t post that often & I suck at quoting, so my apologies if this is a little hard to follow.

  1. Fair enough. I’m pretty sure I’ve made it clear why I’m not going to trawl through the net finding links for you.

  2. Haha, shit. I didn’t even remember writing that the previous night. I guess what I meant is that you are right that in terms of pure volume, there have been more leaks relating to the US than for any other country. I just don’t believe that it’s due to the reasons that you think it is.

  3. Yes, it was revealed from the US cables, however that was just one example. There have been other leaks in the past that had nothing to do with the US that have really pissed off the Aus government.

In relation to the previous attempt to have him arrested, I won’t bore you with the details, but it related to information leaked about a proposed internet filter in Australia. Even if you think Assange is a piece of shit, I honestly think you would be on his side on this one particular issue if you knew the details.

  1. In relation to your final point, I am still not convinced that you realise the extent of the non-US information that they have leaked.

I’m sure you heard about the climategate scandal. That data was no less stolen than the US cables, yet I doubt you had such a moral issue with that particular leak. I could be wrong here, as I haven’t read that many of your posts, but something makes me think that the climategate leak would have provided info that supports your particular world-view, so the stealing of data wouldn’t have bothered you so much in that particular instance.

I see nothing to suggest that they are targetting the US, & withholding leaks relating to other countries. They can only leak the information that they get provided with, & the reality is that they have been provided with a hell of a lot of information relating to the US.

173

Assange wrote an Op-Ed piece for The Australian today. Thought it’d be relevant to post here:

http://blogs.theaustralian.news.com.au/mediadiary/index.php/australianmedia/comments/julian1/

176

To add to what Chushin said, he also didn’t redact the names of people who could have gotten fired, hurt or killed because of these and other releases. Sure, he went and did some after the first set, but he initially did not and he’s also pulled that stunt before and that is absolutely fucking uncalled for.

I don’t have anywhere near the problem with him releasing cables as with him not redacting names as a prior pattern of behavior. That is absolutely a dick move and completely unjournalistic and unprofessional. And as far as I’m concerned that’s what he should be punished the most for–I say hang his ass for conspiracy to commit murder. It’s not about the public, well known names. It’s the small ones that aren’t known to the public.

177

[quote]Aragorn wrote:
To add to what Chushin said, he also didn’t redact the names of people who could have gotten fired, hurt or killed because of these and other releases. Sure, he went and did some after the first set, but he initially did not and he’s also pulled that stunt before and that is absolutely fucking uncalled for.

I don’t have anywhere near the problem with him releasing cables as with him not redacting names as a prior pattern of behavior. That is absolutely a dick move and completely unjournalistic and unprofessional. And as far as I’m concerned that’s what he should be punished the most for–I say hang his ass for conspiracy to commit murder. It’s not about the public, well known names. It’s the small ones that aren’t known to the public.[/quote]

Let us make a deal.

You can have Assange and we get Bush.

178

179

If the media was doing their intended job there would be no need for WikiLeaks. Government and corporate corruption need to have a light shined on them.

180

I’d like to see him executed for treason…seriously. A direct quote from Jules: what about the people who are murdered for talking to the coalition forces? They deserve to die.

And good luck promoting freedom of the press in Ecuador and Russia you vile fucking worm!

181

[quote]Bambi wrote:
Interestingly all other Middle Eastern countries are arguing for a military solution for Iran… apart from Israel, the country leftist commentators have been saying is the most militaristic of the lot. Israel was the only country asking for a diplomatic solution.[/quote]
Israel doesn’t want the Shia Sunni war spreading into Lebanon with al Qaeda and Hezbollah fighting it out on their door step with advanced Russian arms. As I said when this began it will spread through the Shia crescent and make the Lebanese civil war look like a weekend brawl.