Orion, I’m on your side here. But this is just a matter of fact. You don’t need evil people (by any normal standard of evil) to cause a war, with all its horror. Each individual person makes individual decisions that look pretty reasonable in isolation. Put it all together and maybe you’ve destroyed a city with an atomic bomb. There is no point demonizing people who aren’t demons.
[quote]AlisaV wrote:
Orion, I’m on your side here. But this is just a matter of fact. You don’t need evil people (by any normal standard of evil) to cause a war, with all its horror. Each individual person makes individual decisions that look pretty reasonable in isolation. Put it all together and maybe you’ve destroyed a city with an atomic bomb. There is no point demonizing people who aren’t demons.[/quote]
There is no demonizing,
I just stated that they either lose their integrity or bullshit themselves when it comes to their actions.
That is not evil, just human.
[quote]orion wrote:
That actually made me lol.
To speak German, the horror!
[/quote]
Man, I had to start taking that stinkin language in 7th grade.
If I ever have to conjugate another dam verb with all of those stupid Ich, Du, Er Sie and es’s again, I’d gladly take a luger to the back of the head.
Freakin umlaut using goobers.
[quote]ZEB wrote:
[quote]angry chicken wrote:
Are you people that are supporting this asshole so blind that you can’t see the implications here?
[/quote]
It’s not a matter of them being blind - It’s a matter of them either not caring about (or enjoying those antagonizing) the US. Or, they just don’t have the political savvy to understand the impact of such things on world affairs.
[/quote]
Or we disagree and have good, sound, logical reasons for doing so.
Do you ever get tired of demeaning everyone who disagrees with you?
[quote]skaz05 wrote:
[quote]PB Andy wrote:
It seems that Assange revealed this classified information FOR THE SAKE OF REVEALING CLASSIFIED INFORMATION, not for transparency in the government or getting rid of corruption. This to me just shows Assange is an egotistical fuckhead and is revealing classified information to make a name for himself and for WikiLeaks… regardless of how he thinks what he is doing is ethical.[/quote]
This is similar to what I was thinking about the latest “leaks”. It seems like he’s just doing this to do it, and to be a troll. I was just afraid to post my real thoughts because I know there are a lot of the “blame America first” crowd on this forum, so whatever makes America look bad is A.O.K.[/quote]
Or, as I pointed out before, there is some information in this list that the world might find interesting. Maybe there are questions that should be asked about the list.
For instance: Why is the transatlantic fiber-optic cable owned by one corporation that happens to be based in fucking Dubai considered a national security asset when a similar and arguably higher traffic-bearing cable owned by a domestic corporation NOT on the list.
Think critically.
[quote]swoleupinya wrote:
[quote]skaz05 wrote:
[quote]PB Andy wrote:
It seems that Assange revealed this classified information FOR THE SAKE OF REVEALING CLASSIFIED INFORMATION, not for transparency in the government or getting rid of corruption. This to me just shows Assange is an egotistical fuckhead and is revealing classified information to make a name for himself and for WikiLeaks… regardless of how he thinks what he is doing is ethical.[/quote]
This is similar to what I was thinking about the latest “leaks”. It seems like he’s just doing this to do it, and to be a troll. I was just afraid to post my real thoughts because I know there are a lot of the “blame America first” crowd on this forum, so whatever makes America look bad is A.O.K.[/quote]
Or, as I pointed out before, there is some information in this list that the world might find interesting. Maybe there are questions that should be asked about the list.
For instance: Why is the transatlantic fiber-optic cable owned by one corporation that happens to be based in fucking Dubai considered a national security asset when a similar and arguably higher traffic-bearing cable owned by a domestic corporation NOT on the list.
Think critically. [/quote]
Ummmmmm UAE is a big ally of the US. They have a lot of businesses in the US. Think critically about you misconceptions about Arabic countries.
[quote]brnforce wrote:
[quote]swoleupinya wrote:
[quote]skaz05 wrote:
[quote]PB Andy wrote:
It seems that Assange revealed this classified information FOR THE SAKE OF REVEALING CLASSIFIED INFORMATION, not for transparency in the government or getting rid of corruption. This to me just shows Assange is an egotistical fuckhead and is revealing classified information to make a name for himself and for WikiLeaks… regardless of how he thinks what he is doing is ethical.[/quote]
This is similar to what I was thinking about the latest “leaks”. It seems like he’s just doing this to do it, and to be a troll. I was just afraid to post my real thoughts because I know there are a lot of the “blame America first” crowd on this forum, so whatever makes America look bad is A.O.K.[/quote]
Or, as I pointed out before, there is some information in this list that the world might find interesting. Maybe there are questions that should be asked about the list.
For instance: Why is the transatlantic fiber-optic cable owned by one corporation that happens to be based in fucking Dubai considered a national security asset when a similar and arguably higher traffic-bearing cable owned by a domestic corporation NOT on the list.
Think critically. [/quote]
Ummmmmm UAE is a big ally of the US. They have a lot of businesses in the US. Think critically about you misconceptions about Arabic countries.[/quote]
I’m very aware of the relationship between Dubai and the US, and as far as I can tell I have stated no irrational misconceptions about Arabic countries. Feel free to make a straw man of me, though.
In the world of telecommunications, being headquartered in Dubai is synonymous with being a tax-evader on multiple continents. It is also a pretty good bet that any telecom company with multinational operations headquartered in Dubai is skirting embargoes, doing business with shady governments, etc… Even more importantly, traffic routed through Dubai is invariably open to nearly limitless tapping.
I know I’m going to get flamed hard for this, but El Rushbo makes excellent point here:
[quote]SkyzykS wrote:
[quote]orion wrote:
That actually made me lol.
To speak German, the horror!
[/quote]
Man, I had to start taking that stinkin language in 7th grade.
If I ever have to conjugate another dam verb with all of those stupid Ich, Du, Er Sie and es’s again, I’d gladly take a luger to the back of the head.
Freakin umlaut using goobers.
[/quote]
— start hijack: As a collective punishment they make us German kids learn Latin, which is even worse. I hope that helps you with dealing with your own trauma. 
Makkun /hijack. —
[quote]Chushin wrote:
[quote]angry chicken wrote:.
How many members of the United States military have YOU met? How about members of our government?
Does anyone else have a problem with someone saying that MOST of our military have no integrity and ALMOST ALL of our officers have no integrity?
Please justify your statement.[/quote]
Spend any time around these parts and you soon learn that Orion considers himself an expert on all things American, and loves to pontificate on such. But ask him how much time he’s actually spent in the US in order to develop all these “insights,” and he suddenly can’t find the “Reply” botton.
One might wonder why he’s constantly SO concerned with commenting on US affairs. Perhaps his personal history (both grandfathers were very active Nazis) presents some clues?
[/quote]
maybe he is so concerned about us affairs becuase its the modern day Roman empire. Dont you think the gauls where concerned about the affairs of Rome?
[quote]Chushin wrote:
[quote]florelius wrote:
[quote]Chushin wrote:
[quote]angry chicken wrote:.
How many members of the United States military have YOU met? How about members of our government?
Does anyone else have a problem with someone saying that MOST of our military have no integrity and ALMOST ALL of our officers have no integrity?
Please justify your statement.[/quote]
Spend any time around these parts and you soon learn that Orion considers himself an expert on all things American, and loves to pontificate on such. But ask him how much time he’s actually spent in the US in order to develop all these “insights,” and he suddenly can’t find the “Reply” botton.
One might wonder why he’s constantly SO concerned with commenting on US affairs. Perhaps his personal history (both grandfathers were very active Nazis) presents some clues?
[/quote]
maybe he is so concerned about us affairs becuase its the modern day Roman empire. Dont you think the gauls where concerned about the affairs of Rome? [/quote]
Oh yeah, I forgot: The US position in the world gives everybody else the right (and the limitless insight, surely!) to pontificate about the US.
Funny how little he has to say about China, no? (Where does THAT country fit into your analogy, BTW?)
Nobody is saying “concern” is inappropriate; his obsession, though is another matter.[/quote]
what does pontificate means?
google is your friend 
[quote]Chushin wrote:
[quote]Regular Gonzalez wrote:
[quote]Chushin wrote:
[quote]Regular Gonzalez wrote:
[quote]Chushin wrote:
I’m just glad that he’s being completely objective by airing the dirty laundry of China, Russia and other major countries, too.
Oh wait…[/quote]
Why does everyone seem to think that they only target the US? They definitely seem to leak more information relating to Western governments & companies. This is probably partly due to the fact that for obvious reasons it’s much harder to find whistleblowers in China, Russia, Iran etc.
Personally I think that retribution from the US will be the least of his worries.
In October 2010, Assange told a leading Moscow newspaper that “The Kremlin had better brace itself for a coming wave of WikiLeaks disclosures about Russia.”[/quote]
I am aware of the October warning. It is now December. What is he waiting for?
If he’s already posted Russian, Iranian or Chinese secrets, please link me to them.
Otherwise, it’s just words.[/quote]
He has already leaked secrets from all three of the above countries. I’m not going to waste my time finding the links for you when you are clearly putting no effort into finding out the information for yourself. Spend 5 minutes on google & you will see.
It’s fair to say that there has been a disproportionate focus on the US, compared to the above countries, but I have explained that already. It’s much harder to find whistleblowers from countries where leaking information will get you tortured & killed.[/quote]
So, it will only take ME 5 mins to find these leaks, but you “don’t want to waste time” backing up your own assertion?
OK, I’ll check, then.
And since your assertion is that the US is being focused on because leaking on the US won’t “get you tortured or killed,” there should also be a proportionate number of leaks on European countries, and on Australia, right? Heck, the US still has capital punishment, so there might be MORE on the European countries, I guess…
Because this guy is completely neutral and has no political leanings whatsoever, right?
Right.
[/quote]
Yep, it should only take a few minutes. I’m not going to waste any time baby-feeding you information when you are clearly making no effort.
When you say proportionate, I have to ask, proportionate to what? Population?, level of influence in world politics? Given Americas expansive foreign policy, it should be no surprise that more leaks emerge relating to the US than for other western countries.
That said, I doubt you actually realise how much sensitive information that Wikileaks has already leaked relating to countries other than the US. Just last night, the main news headline over here was about how it has been leaked that our ex prime minister told Hillary Clinton to be prepared to use force against China if necessary. This is a guy who speaks fluent Mandarin & promoted himself as someone who would be able to bridge the gap with China (who are our most important trading partner). He is also our current foreign minister & our relationship with China is probably our second most important.
Just for the record, the Australian government consider Assange to be their enemy & have already attempted to have him arrested (previous & separate to the current rape charges being thrown at him).
To answer your last question, nobody is completely neutral & everyone has political leanings.
How about instead of asking semi cryptic questions, you just say what you actually think. Do you believe wikileaks is a rabidly anti American website? If so, what do you think their motivation is for this stance? Do they hate the West in general, or just specifically the US?
I’m honestly interested to know.
Assange is not anti-american. He publishes whatever he is given and there is dirt on other countries (I would find it for you but the website is down for me at the minute). To be honest there is nothing of great note within these cables; everyone with half a brain knew already that Putin basically ran Russia, that Saudi Arabia is full of nutjobs etc etc.
Oh Angry Chicken, do you think the current escalation of the situation in Iran is anything to do with the invasion of Iraq. I mean, Saddam was a nasty nasty guy but with his removal a power vacuum opened up and Iran saw their opportunity to be a regional honcho. I personally think that if Iraq hadn’t been invaded they wouldn’t nearly be so militaristic but everyone has an opinion
[quote]skaz05 wrote:
I know I’m going to get flamed hard for this, but El Rushbo makes excellent point here:
[/quote]
What excellent point?
That he, Rush, can’t make an argument without first presenting a straw man to knock down?
So, let me get this straight… First he implies that all liberals support Wikileaks. Then, he implies that Wikilieaks actively seeks out information. Then, he implies that Assange has somehow failed in his mission because he hasn’t produced anything supporting some of the more extreme claims made by a few liberals over the years.
WTF?
This is your idea of an excellent point?
This is a straw man, standing on a house of cards, smoking a cigarette…
You may not realize this, but Assange is a libertarian. He hardly has a duty to any political ideology or party in his work, nor has he ever claimed that he does. Also, Wikileaks are a passive receiver of information. They do not solicit leaks.
Lastly, Rush Limbaugh is a fucking tool. Elaborating on what I said above, he has made a career out of arguing against straw men.
[quote]Chushin wrote:
[quote]Regular Gonzalez wrote:
Yep, it should only take a few minutes. I’m not going to waste any time baby-feeding you information when you are clearly making no effort.
[/quote]
Look, you made a statement ande I asked you to back it up. You don’t want to? Fine.
[quote]Regular Gonzalez wrote:
When you say proportionate, I have to ask, proportionate to what? Population?, level of influence in world politics?
[/quote]
Just used your word. What did you mean when YOU wrote it?
[quote]Regular Gonzalez wrote:
That said, I doubt you actually realise how much sensitive information that Wikileaks has already leaked relating to countries other than the US. Just last night, the main news headline over here was about how it has been leaked that our ex prime minister told Hillary Clinton to be prepared to use force against China if necessary. This is a guy who speaks fluent Mandarin & promoted himself as someone who would be able to bridge the gap with China (who are our most important trading partner). He is also our current foreign minister & our relationship with China is probably our second most important.
[/quote]
I am aware of that. I believe it was revealed in the leaking of US CABLES, not Australian ones. Sure it “relates” to another country, but its still US intelligence.
[quote]Regular Gonzalez wrote:
Just for the record, the Australian government consider Assange to be their enemy & have already attempted to have him arrested (previous & separate to the current rape charges being thrown at him).
[/quote]
Thanks. That’s good news in my opinion.
[quote]Regular Gonzalez wrote:
How about instead of asking semi cryptic questions, you just say what you actually think. Do you believe wikileaks is a rabidly anti American website? If so, what do you think their motivation is for this stance? Do they hate the West in general, or just specifically the US?
[/quote]
I think that the guy is careful to only REALLY piss off counties that he can feel fairly certain won’t have him wiped off the face of the earth in a heartbeat. (That excludes China, Iran and Russia as far as SERIOUS leaks of major proportion go.) I think he’s part of the recent fun fad of blaming the US for each and every problem that exists anywhere in the world. I think anyone with half a brain would (or should) know that, by definition, a policy of publicizing leaks will hurt the open, democratic and somewhat accountable nations MUCH more than the closed, authoritarian rogue nations of the world; in the battle of the (relatively) good guys vs. the bad, if you will. I think that this guy is an egomaniac who feels that HE somehow has the right to expose the confidential communications of democratically-elected governments (that aren’t even his own). I think he likes playing God, and is demonstrating the belief that HE knows what’s best for the entire world.
[/quote]
Stop asking to be spoon-fed information. More than one person, myself included, have linked to this list of leaks that Wikileaks has published. Leaks of US diplomatic cables and other information about the US government are in the minority of what Wikileaks has released.