I really didn’t go into as much detail as I could have with regards to optimal because then I could have also gone into exercise selection, frequency, weekly volume spread, etc. My main point was making the distinction between strength training and pure hypertrophy training on a fundamental level because it’s too easy to conflate the two.
I think there’s merit to your point with people staying small by worrying too much about what is “optimal”, but that would mostly apply to a subset of people, namely novices when they have their highest muscle building potential in the first year of lifting.
A 12RM of 405 would just mean you’re further along in muscular development compared to a 12RM of 225 on the same lift, and therefore the 12RM of 405 would illicit less growth due to diminishing returns. Relative stimulus is equal in both, but the return on that same relative effort is less.
You know what I was getting at, and you tried really hard to not recognize the obvious. The guy with a 12RM of 405 is bigger than the guy with a 225 12RM. Sure bodybuilders don’t need to powerlift, you’re right. But if you want big muscles, at some point you have to get stronger to increase your capacity to lift heavier weights. I can’t get 12 reps of 405 if my 1RM is 300.
I know what you were getting at, but you are obfuscating it by still looking at it through a powerlifting lens. That extra strength that was gained was a result of focusing on failing in the 9-12 rep range, not because there was a focusing on adding weight. The adding of weight is an afterthought and is auto regulated as fibers hypertrophy in order to continue failing at that rep range.
The distinction I’m making is that any strength gained from hypertrophy training is secondary, it’s a consequence. Weight is simply added because you’ll end up going on 15, then 20 reps if you don’t. This mindset makes all the difference in the world between training for pure hypertrophy and training for strength. A novice can easily take what you said and run with it by telling themselves that they can just do low rep heavy sets to get to 405 faster. They will end up with mediocre results in hypertrophy or even lose sight of failing at 12 reps with proper form.
If you are failing at ~12 reps every time, you are providing the necessary stimulus to grow.
Hypertrophy isn’t limited by strength, but strength is limited by hypertrophy. The relationship between hypertrophy and strength is not symmetrical, it is asymmetrical.
So to get as strong as humanly possible, you will eventually need big muscles. But to get the biggest muscles humanly possible? It’s not a requirement to “just get stronger”.
Because powerlifters like Rippetoe won’t stay in their lane, they brainwash people into believing that the relationship between hypertrophy and strength is symmetrical. The result? Closeted bodybuilders training to get stronger rather than bigger.
Correct. I already agreed with you on that. It’s not only a matter of get stronger. But, if you get stronger you can lift heavier weight to 9-12 rep failure and grow bigger muscles.
Like, if I had a job where I need to lift a 100lb pipe all day the first thing I need to be able to do is lift the 100lb pipe. I can’t lift it all day if I can’t lift it once.
The answer is, and most body builders and strength athletes have figured this out over the past 100 years, Its not one or the other. You find the correct combination of strength building, and hypertrophy focused training for the desired outcome. If you can do 12’s until the end of time and keep growing, great.
“Like, if I had a job where I need to lift a 100lb pipe all day the first thing I need to be able to do is lift the 100lb pipe. I can’t lift it all day if I can’t lift it once.”
Right, but focusing on lifting a 100lb pipe once is not how you get to lifting a 100lb pipe all dayin practice. It’s a matter of prioritization, that’s where people get confused.
Going back to your 12RM at 225 and 12RM at 405 example. People see “405” and think, I’m going to focus on that to get there because at 12RM with 405, the muscles are bigger. Instead, it’s about focusing on 12RM above all. There’s no need to even have to remind yourself to add weight, the weight comes automatically because it’s being driven by the 12RM. If you don’t add weight, that 225 will become a 15RM, and then a 20RM. But what’s driving it? The 12RM.
Hypertrophy doesn’t need to worry about strength but strength needs to worry about hypertrophy. You can get away with choosing hypertrophy over strength, but not the other way around. I don’t add weight to drive hypertrophy, I add weight because “this is getting too easy” if I don’t. I do it because I have to. A powerlifter will do it because they want to.
I feel like we agree that you need both, but you keep responding like you can just do “12s to failure, then add weight when I get 13” is the pinnacle of bodybuilding training. It’s not.
From what I’ve seen, guys that train this way exclusively have a theme and it’s a thin neck and weak traps. But I guess that could be avoiding deadlifts.
It’s a bit of a misnomer when you said guys who have a thin neck and weak traps is probably due to lack of deadlifts. Reason I say that is because deadlifts are a powerlifting staple done with very low reps making it seem as if “see, their traps are small because they don’t focus on strength!” I’d argue that it’s not only a lack of deadlifts, but a lack of hypertrophy-focused deadlifts with higher reps, and even a lack of direct wbecyashrugs. For pure hypertrophy, shrugs are superior because they can effectively take the traps to failure whereas the lower back would give out before that could happen.
There’s dudes with small necks and traps pulling huge numbers once again proving that powerlifting is a skill and leverages make a massive difference especially in DL
Life events and career, had to move out at the time and put it on the back burner. Never looked back into competing and wanted to avoid eventually getting embroiled with others who have “used”. Got 4th and was happy with that
Main point was to challenge some modern misconceptions and point out certain flaws that I’ve noticed watching YouTube fitness trends such as naturals getting black pilled into thinking they’ll never be able to get big unless they take or thinking they’ve hit their genetic limit 2 years in. It’s a viscous cycle. Powerlifters try to rescue these guys and then these guys eventually give up and start taking, which leads to more powerlifters trying to “fix” bodybuilding.
No, I never powerlifted, never had any interest in it. So I’m never gonna give advice on how to get stronger, it’s not my lane. And that’s really my whole point-we see powerlifters and powerlifter coaches like Rippetoe crossing into bodybuilding with good intentions but giving bad bodybuilding advice but not so much bodybuilders trying to give powerlifting advice. They attract all the closeted bodybuilders by dangling that carrot in front of them saying “if you just get stronger, you’ll have all the muscle you ever wanted.” All I know is hypertrophy and the older I get the more I value longevity
