Why Socialism Cannot Work.

[quote]Dorso wrote:

I wasn’t saying you did. It’s just that the examples of “socialim” you and most other people provided don’t include successful example’s, such as the Norway, Sweden, and the US.

[/quote]

I left these out of my post but i had considered them when i wrote it. But trying to make people look like they are idiots because they misspelled socialism or that they aren’t blatantly stating that the US has a mixed economy, which your are correct in, doesnt add anything useful to the discussion because most people are aware of this given the rules and things of our system you would have to be blind to realize that it isn’t 100% capitalist. But is it more capitalist than most developed countries? Yes…

I will agree that we have something to learn from these countries that they can have a socialist economy and make it work.

Bingo.

The current government is unfortunately adding to it’s powers in a large way, because of the unending war. Sigh, perhaps somebody could buy GW a copy of 1984 and hire somebody to read it to him?

[quote]vroom wrote:
This whole thread sucks.

There is no utopia. Not even capitalism will do that job.

Whether anyone likes it or not, the government, in every free country, is already applying socialistic principles.

The thing we need to realize is that portions of various systems have a lot to offer. Combining the best parts of several may perhaps provide something approaching the best we can get.

For example, from capitalism, we see that providing incentive to the people is very important. However, there will always be limits on this… we don’t want people trading nuclear waste products on the street corners in the name of profits.

Systems have been put in place in all capitalist systems to protect the populace and/or the environment from the greedy end of this continuum.

Perhaps from socialism we have found that providing public education for children, instead of expecting them to work as soon as they are able, allows people to make choices about their lives, to acquire skills and help guide their success. This is not a purely capitalistic situation either, but I doubt many would argue against education.

Again, I’ll raise national defence, which isn’t really provided for in a purely capitalist situation. I’m pretty sure that most people understand the value of contributing to national defence.

No, the problem, which headhunter continues to cry about, is that his money is being taken and applied not only to these purposes, but towards supporting some of the poor in some way. Those lazy slobs that do nothing but take his money.

For this, socialism is evil and reduces the amount of financial incentive available to him. Boo hoo.[/quote]

Wow, Vroom, until the last 2 paragraphs, I was impressed. This was an intelligient post, with some excellent points to share.

Then, my objective attempt at explaining why socialism can’t work got turned into my being a greedy pig, not wanting to help the poor. How you got from one to the other is simply beyond me, dude. Can’t resist with the insults, heh? Shame – I’ve got 15 year olds with more maturity than that.

I think that Americans have had it so good lately that we don’t realize what lazyness is. If you don’t work you shouldnt be able to eat unless you are disabled or going to college.

I have known too many people that are lazy and dont want to work. Socialism would be great for them in fact these are the biggest advocates of socialism that i have known other than the people that like to intelectualize and throw ideas around. I know an unmarried couple on walefare that refuse to get a real job but work for under the table stuff, the guy won’t get anything longer than 5 months at a time and owes 4 or 5 other people a total of several thousand because he house hops.

You have to ask yourself in deciding on this issue, what do we have more of :

  1. The people that do not make the best choices in life and need a parental government to provide for them

Or

  1. The people that have made good choices in their life as far as work goes but cannot afford to live because of say they have too many children or medical bills.

I have known far more in the first group than the second, what about y’all? There is no way to nurture stupidity out of somebody just get that idea out of your heads.

[quote]vroom wrote:
And once government is given power, it is seldom given back.

Bingo.

The current government is unfortunately adding to it’s powers in a large way, because of the unending war. Sigh, perhaps somebody could buy GW a copy of 1984 and hire somebody to read it to him?[/quote]

Nah. They should fuck with him and get Animal Farm instead.

“George, do you see the metaphor here”?

George: “How could the damn horse die? This book sucks!”

[quote]Dorso wrote:

Also, last time I checked (which was a while ago) the USA was about 7th in GDP/capita. I think either Denmark or Sweden was ahead of us. [/quote]

This is from the CIA world factbook,

the U.S. is #2 with an average income of $40,000 anyway here is the rank of 2004:

http://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook/rankorder/2004rank.html

But some other European countries like Norway, Luxembourg are very labor friendly and didnt do too badly in the survey either.

[quote]FightinIrish26 wrote:
vroom wrote:
And once government is given power, it is seldom given back.

Bingo.

The current government is unfortunately adding to it’s powers in a large way, because of the unending war. Sigh, perhaps somebody could buy GW a copy of 1984 and hire somebody to read it to him?

Nah. They should fuck with him and get Animal Farm instead.

“George, do you see the metaphor here”?

George: “How could the damn horse die? This book sucks!”[/quote]

Heh. thats funny

by the way irish i wish our gov put more $$$ into education like you mentioned. I think thats the best way we can invest in our future and make teaching a profession again.

OK, here’s my $0.02

Socialism cannot work, but neither can Capitalism.

Although I’m not entirely sure what you mean by ‘work,’ I will define it for my present purpose as increasing the wellbeing of those living in a given socio-political-economic regeime as measured by mean, modal and median income, poverty rate, unemployment rate, mortality rate, and average life expectancy.

My feeling is that in order for a citizenry to experience an increase in their standard of living, as reflected in the aforementioned quantitative measures, there needs to exist adaptive tension. This adaptive tension would be applied to public, private, and other institutions. Adaptive tension leads to innovation in the form of inventions, increases in effeciency, exploitation or creation of new markets and consumer needs. These advances will, theoretically, in concert lead to increases in the measures mentioned above.

The question is how exactly this adaptive tension is to be facilitated. Some would contend that freeing markets will do this, others that increasing the number of or funding for government programs will acomplish this, and there are numerous other theorized mechanisms through which adaptive tension may be facilitated.

My personal take on the creation/facilitation of adaptive tension is that fluctuation between situations or structures biased toward the success, in terms of securing profit/funding for an entity or the survival of an institution or business, of creative/innovative and organizational structures will yield the most advance in the measures noted above. This is one phenomena that has been witnessed in many businesses (ie: GE, Lancome, Tech Sector companies, etc.) where profits are seen to climb when creative units are brought under more strict organizational control. The opposite is seen with regard to innovation as fewer products are created when such organizational control is applied.

The theory that is born out of such observation is that if operational control is periodically increased and decreased higher profits, on average, are seen.

My extension of this theory is then that in order for the quality of life to increase for a populace, the tensions applied to governmental, business and other structures must similarly fluctuate.

This will result in funding fluctuations for governmental structures, necessitating increased efficiency, as well as increased funding for such structures, allowing for the expansion of services, assuming that the previously created efficiencies are maintained. In this case an increasing number of services at an increasing level of efficiency become available.

In the case of businesses, periods of increased organizational control will lead to more efficient utilization of the innovations made by creative/research branches. Increased funding and decreased organizational control over such branches will lead to an increase in innovation (as measured in the number of innovations or products created). This would then theoretically lead to more and better products and services avaiable to consumers.

The real would application would be to the existent political system in the US, and in some other countries. One party typically advances policies that benefit some public sectors and some economic sectors, while the other advances policies that benefit other public sectors and other economic sectors. This might be seen to operate on more of a sliding scale in other countries with more than two parties.

Why then are there so many inefficiencies seen in government and business/economic structures? I often return to this question and feel the answer to be that when the political pendulem shifts in the US one party will not create adaptive tension by removing some of the beneficial programs that the other party provided for its favored public and private sectors, the cumulative effect of which is the massive inefficiencies that can so readily be seen in so many public and private sector structures.

So that is my two cents. Adaptive tension is needed in the form of fluctuation between the socio-political-economic extremes of socialism and capitalism. This most often takes the form of political parties pandering to their favored public and private sectors, applying their stated belief in a given set of economic and political principles as it is convenient to benefit or apply adaptive pressure to public and private sectors as the favor of the dominant political faction would have it.

I will admit that a number of assumptions are built in here, namely the assumption that governmental strucutres and business structures will readily mantain efficiencies that have been realized under increased organizational pressures/decreased funding or profits.

[quote]vroom wrote:
And once government is given power, it is seldom given back.

Bingo.

The current government is unfortunately adding to it’s powers in a large way, because of the unending war. Sigh, perhaps somebody could buy GW a copy of 1984 and hire somebody to read it to him?[/quote]

Thats a damn good idea. Though, like most purveyors of big government, he’d probably fail to a see the correlation.

[quote]thabigdon24 wrote:
FightinIrish26 wrote:
vroom wrote:
And once government is given power, it is seldom given back.

Bingo.

The current government is unfortunately adding to it’s powers in a large way, because of the unending war. Sigh, perhaps somebody could buy GW a copy of 1984 and hire somebody to read it to him?

Nah. They should fuck with him and get Animal Farm instead.

“George, do you see the metaphor here”?

George: “How could the damn horse die? This book sucks!”

Heh. thats funny

by the way irish i wish our gov put more $$$ into education like you mentioned. I think thats the best way we can invest in our future and make teaching a profession again. [/quote]

Do you realize how much money goes into education each year? The problem is how its being spent; fix that first and then consider puting more money into the system. Come to think of it, you already got your wish…Bush has increased education spending a shit load.

[quote]LBRTRN wrote:
thabigdon24 wrote:
FightinIrish26 wrote:
vroom wrote:
And once government is given power, it is seldom given back.

Bingo.

The current government is unfortunately adding to it’s powers in a large way, because of the unending war. Sigh, perhaps somebody could buy GW a copy of 1984 and hire somebody to read it to him?

Nah. They should fuck with him and get Animal Farm instead.

“George, do you see the metaphor here”?

George: “How could the damn horse die? This book sucks!”

Heh. thats funny

by the way irish i wish our gov put more $$$ into education like you mentioned. I think thats the best way we can invest in our future and make teaching a profession again.

Do you realize how much money goes into education each year? The problem is how its being spent; fix that first and then consider puting more money into the system. Come to think of it, you already got your wish…Bush has increased education spending a shit load.[/quote]

Yep, you see the funding going up year after year, but the class sizes go up and teacher pay is frozen. It’s like welfare, where very little actually reaches those for whom the money was intended to help – eaten up by bureaucrats.

Best thing to do for education : bring average salary up, to say 70 or 80 thousand and put a requirement on having a masters. This would bring in qualified people from other industries but give us better teachers who would want to do more since they would make more $$$.

Here is a article showing how much we spend on teachers, shows that america should do better with this of all things :

http://nces.ed.gov/surveys/international/IntlIndicators/index.asp?SectionNumber=2&SubSectionNumber=6&IndicatorNumber=76

[quote]thabigdon24 wrote:
Best thing to do for education : bring average salary up, to say 70 or 80 thousand and put a requirement on having a masters. This would bring in qualified people from other industries but give us better teachers who would want to do more since they would make more $$$.

Here is a article showing how much we spend on teachers, shows that america should do better with this of all things :

http://nces.ed.gov/surveys/international/IntlIndicators/index.asp?SectionNumber=2&SubSectionNumber=6&IndicatorNumber=76
[/quote]

I agree…in fact, Im working towards being a history teacher so I really agree ;-). Sadly, too much money gets lost somewhere between the Dept. of Education and the class room.

I do agree that manyt high school teachers are unqualified to teach anybody. I would love it if they had to get masters’ first…unfortunately I think the number of teachers would plummet, being as that’s not as easy to get as four years of college, then a state job with the summers off.

[quote]FightinIrish26 wrote:
I do agree that manyt high school teachers are unqualified to teach anybody. I would love it if they had to get masters’ first…unfortunately I think the number of teachers would plummet, being as that’s not as easy to get as four years of college, then a state job with the summers off. [/quote]

Sorry to rain on the parade here, but I know that in the state of Oregon teachers are required to, or at least now are required to, have masters degrees as part of their training. I believe it is also a requirement for them to have a masters in order to get a credential. As I have a few friends who are in teaching programs in the state’s universities I know that the ‘masters’ is pretty easy to get, requiring only one year of study beyond on’s undergraduate study and involving little hard acedemic coursework. This standing in stark contrast to my friend who just got his masters in education from a california university after two years of rigourous coursework. It may just be that the people I know applied themselves to varying degrees though, after all anecdotal evidence is rarely that generalizable.

I don’t know if requiring a masters is that great of an idea given the situation in Oregon as an example, it seems to me that it could too easily devolve to an extra year of easy coursework and leave teachers little more prepared than they would be with a bachelors and a year of student teaching. I would imagine some other states may have such a requirement, anybody?

I would suggest that a joint requirement of a masters degree and having passed a standardized test (I’m thinking along the lines of a bar exam as far as rigor is concerned), be it a state- or nation-wide test, would be more beneficial as at least a base competency could be established in this manner. I know such tests test only what you know at a point in time, not how well one retains or applies it or even how well qualified one is.

It just seems that a requirement such as a masters degree might soon fail to have its intended effect ‘on the ground’ as it were. I think the idea is a really good one, however, I think that the requirement would have to be very carefully writen as a statute of state law so that it remains effective in providing better education to our youth.

Headhunter, okay then, scratch off my last two paragraphs… :wink:

[quote]thabigdon24 wrote:
Dorso wrote:

I wasn’t saying you did. It’s just that the examples of “socialim” you and most other people provided don’t include successful example’s, such as the Norway, Sweden, and the US.

I left these out of my post but i had considered them when i wrote it. But trying to make people look like they are idiots because they misspelled socialism or that they aren’t blatantly stating that the US has a mixed economy, which your are correct in, doesnt add anything useful to the discussion because most people are aware of this given the rules and things of our system you would have to be blind to realize that it isn’t 100% capitalist. But is it more capitalist than most developed countries? Yes…

I will agree that we have something to learn from these countries that they can have a socialist economy and make it work.

[/quote]

Sorry, I didn’t intend to make anyone look like an idiot. If you look closely, I actually spelled socialism wrong. I put it in quotes to emphasize that many people on this thread mean different things by the word socialism.

Like I said, I took for granted that people realized that the USA has a mixed economy. But, since several people seemed to refer to the USA as evidence of capitalism’s success, I felt the need to correct that assumption.

I don’t think that today’s schools are preparing slackers for unemployment.

A bit off topic, but here’s how you start a kickass political party.

You ask the first member to start giving you blowjobs (when requested).

Then they find someone to give them blowjobs.

Then they find another person to replace their job giving you a blowjob.

In the end that person has found a way to get all the blowjobs they want, and they dont have to give out any.

Give and ye shall receive.

Socialism cannot work. But some socialist programs (such as Social Security) within the context of a capitalist society greatly improve our lives, and we would be worse off as a society and individuals without them.