Why Obama Won

Off Topic Politics & World Issues
802

Indeed, but it’s after the “creation” that separates the adults from the kids, the makers from the takers, ot whatever color euphemism that you want use.

People choose their own path a certain age, whether that path is being lazy or being productive and motivated. Everyone has a goal, but only certain people pursue it with a vengence.

In the case of the voter fraud I mentioned above, some people partake in it, some do not. Saying that because some humans do it, that all humans do it, is flat out wrong. The difference in equality is, while every person CAN pursue fraud, it doesn’t mean that all do.

Those who cheat, are clearly not equal to those who don’t.

803

Trib says “Simply stopping the money would cause this now socialist commune of a country to implode upon itself.”

I don’t understand this. So, how would society implode exactly? You work, or you don’t get paid. At least FDR’s alphabet-agencies put men to work, even at the cost of taxpayer money. Right now we pay people for NOTHING, and that’s the problem. It was a realistic solution to unemployment. The “divine morality” solution is not realistic.

Pushharder says “A real libertarian DOES CARE what women do with other bodies.” Interesting comment, but your meaning is not obvious to me. Please explain to me why a libertarian, keyword being liberty, would want Government interference with women’s health choices such as this. I don’t consider a child human until it is born, and if that is the crux of your argument, fine … but we will never agree on the topic.

804

[quote]njrusmc wrote:

[quote]Tiribulus wrote:
Trib says “Simply stopping the money would cause this now socialist commune of a country to implode upon itself.”[/quote]I don’t understand this. So, how would society implode exactly? You work, or you don’t get paid. At least FDR’s alphabet-agencies put men to work, even at the cost of taxpayer money. Right now we pay people for NOTHING, and that’s the problem. It was a realistic solution to unemployment. The “divine morality” solution is not realistic. >>>[/quote]Oh no sir. We DO NOT pay them for nothing. We pay them to destroy themselves, their own children, our cities and our nation with their whoredom and it’s disastrous results.

Tens of millions of dependent people without even the bare sustenance of taxpayer largess would be a military situation. Oh yes it would. We have taught these people that they have a RIGHT to other people’s money, though half the time they don’t even know what a taxpayer is. Multitudes now in the the street out of public housing and now actually having no way to eat or be clothed or survive. There would be unleashed rioting, looting and mayhem for the foreseeable future costing God only knows how much money and how many lives. On both sides. There aren’t even jobs for responsible skilled people looking now.

However realistic or not you think the “divine solution” as you call it actually is, it IS the only one and it WAS the foundation of our freedom as a nation. So either God saves this nation or she continues to degenerate. I hasten to add that this CANNOT be legislated and it was never intended that such legislation be the enforcer of morality. The Christian faith WAS the private and voluntary enforcer of New Testament models of sex, family and marriage that provided the social foundation of every freedom we once had in this nation.It amounted to biblical libertarianism. It was assumed going forward that people would live like Christians on the whole so we needed very little public government. Normative Christian morality provided the boundaries that enabled public freedom.

You can roll your eyes all you want, but the denial of what I’m saying doesn’t even pass the snicker test. Social libertarianism in it’s present iteration in the western world IS the root cause of absolutely every other disaster we are in the middle of. Financial or otherwise.

Make no mistake. The fault lies in the Church. Those claiming to be disciples of Christ, who by and large are every bit as debauched, anti Christian and morally repugnant as the world that true disciples of Christ were sent to be an example to.

BTW, I have no illusions about what you response will likely be so go ahead.

805

[quote]MaximusB wrote:
Saying that because some humans do it, that all humans do it, is flat out wrong. [/quote]

Common tactic used in politics.

They like to paint an entire group of individuals with the collective brush. Ignoring the constant talk of “winning demographic blocks” just look at Limbaugh.

Here we have a controversal loud talking conservative. So what does the left do, stand up and say, over and over until it sticks, that Rush is the spokes person for every conservative. While intelligent people know nothing could be further from the truth, the bait is strong in this tactic, particularly when the target is ripe for bashing. They create a proxy, even where one doesn’t happen to be, in order to degrade an enitre group with their tearing down of the individual.

Effective, brutal and preying on the uninformed, but very effective.

806

[quote]countingbeans wrote:

[quote]MaximusB wrote:
Saying that because some humans do it, that all humans do it, is flat out wrong. [/quote]

Common tactic used in politics.

They like to paint an entire group of individuals with the collective brush. Ignoring the constant talk of “winning demographic blocks” just look at Limbaugh.

Here we have a controversal loud talking conservative. So what does the left do, stand up and say, over and over until it sticks, that Rush is the spokes person for every conservative. While intelligent people know nothing could be further from the truth, the bait is strong in this tactic, particularly when the target is ripe for bashing. They create a proxy, even where one doesn’t happen to be, in order to degrade an enitre group with their tearing down of the individual.

Effective, brutal and preying on the uninformed, but very effective. [/quote]

I think you just described the effective dismantling of the Republican Party.

Notice how bullshit salespeople never go after those who know their shit ?

The mushroom theory…feed them shit, keep them in the dark, and they grow.

807

[quote]MaximusB wrote:

[quote]countingbeans wrote:

[quote]MaximusB wrote:
Saying that because some humans do it, that all humans do it, is flat out wrong. [/quote]

Common tactic used in politics.

They like to paint an entire group of individuals with the collective brush. Ignoring the constant talk of “winning demographic blocks” just look at Limbaugh.

Here we have a controversal loud talking conservative. So what does the left do, stand up and say, over and over until it sticks, that Rush is the spokes person for every conservative. While intelligent people know nothing could be further from the truth, the bait is strong in this tactic, particularly when the target is ripe for bashing. They create a proxy, even where one doesn’t happen to be, in order to degrade an enitre group with their tearing down of the individual.

Effective, brutal and preying on the uninformed, but very effective. [/quote]

I think you just described the effective dismantling of the Republican Party.

Notice how bullshit salespeople never go after those who know their shit ?

The mushroom theory…feed them shit, keep them in the dark, and they grow.[/quote]

Read up on Alinsky Tactics man, that is all I’m going to say. Sexmachine is/was spot fucking on.

808

As always Trib, I appreciate and respect your informational and well crafted responses. Your last paragraph is a great point, and it’s something I’ve always believed as well. I do not deny that the founding father’s faith in Christianity was the basis of X Y and Z. I think you are generalization my argument a bit too much.

I agree with what you said about people thinking their Government handouts are rights. I do not deny this is the product of an overly-liberal, degenerate society. Kindly explain, if you will, how abortion and gay-marriage specifically affect this. I realize I am painting you into a corner and threadjacking a little, but honestly dude, those are the only two issues upon which I disagree with conservatives.

809

It is almost impossible for me to believe that you have said what you just did and don’t understand that homosexuality/gay “marriage” and abortion have been and are two of the most lethal weapons being wielded against the United Sates as founded. There are others of course among which would be generally adulterous promiscuous family destroying whoredom and pornography. All symptoms of an increasingly godless and degenerate society. I will try for more later. I have to go. For now see this page. http://gregnmary.gotdns.com/index6.html Read into the congressional record by DEMOCRAT A. S. Herlong, Jr. of Florida. Thursday, January 10, 1963. Some observed tactics of communist destroyers as published in a book by of all people a Mormon, in the late 50’s. My my my how some people do have foresight. See if anything familiar shows up in there.

810

[quote]njrusmc wrote:
ZEB,

I don’t disagree with your points, and I generally agree with what you say in general. But this comment is outrageous: “We are America we’re not going to let anyone die without trying to save them and that’s the way it should be.”

Sorry Trib and ZEB: Humans are created equal, but that does not mean their lives are equally valuable into adulthood. Servicemembers, working Americans, children, etc should be saved during times of need given their problems are problems of circumstance, not decision. Drug abusers, convicts, and rapists can be left to die in sewers for all I care.

So, let me get this straight. You want the Government to be the hero, and in order to do this, spend taxpayer money on people who have failed? Mind you, they are not victims of circumstance, they made conscious decisions to become drug abusers. The tiny exception would be crack babies and shit like that.

Your solution is instead to magically make unwanted pregnancies, drug abusers, and other “bad” things simply disappear by having the Government press morality unto everyone? This cannot happen.

I do hate drug abusers, fat people, Government-tit-sucking people, and just about everyone else given that they make excuses for their own bad decisions. I don’t hate gay people or women who get convenience-based (or as I call it, common-sense-based) abortions.

I remember another poster once calling you “Big Government ZEB”, and honestly brother, it’s the truth. I’m really a libertarian who DOES NOT CARE what women do with their bodies given that it does not drag everything else down. Many people don’t believe in abortion; fine, don’t have one.

The problem with American politics in general is that the focus is on pathetic, trivial issues like gay marriage and abortion while half the nation pays for the other half to survive. I realize you and I are both in the “giving half” so I will spare you the details of how much it sucks to look at my paycheck every 2 weeks. As I said, live and let live, but don’t give them money for it.[/quote]

There are many reasons to despise the libertraian concept. You’ve just named some. I don’t think compassion is a weakness. As long as there is a limit. And while I don’t appreciate something like obamacare, I do think that in a civilized society we at least try to help each other whether the problem is drug abuse, alcoholism, unwanted pregnancy. That help does not neccessarily have to come from the government. Certainly not all of the time.

When you say you don’t care what a woman does with her body you are making a sweeping generalization that will only end up costing us as a society (in many ways) in the end.

-You don’t care that she has the power kill her unborn?

-You don’t care that she can sell her body to the highest bidder for sex?

-You don’t care if she sticks a needle filled with drugs in her body?

Libertarians cannot see beyond their nose and that’s one of the reasons that it is really only an idea (thank God) at this point, and a really bad idea at that. And the concept is so very flawed that it will never be a major party or even a major influence on either major party.

Once again from the top:

Abortion causes societal pain and costs taxpayers.

Drug abuse causes societal pain and costs taxpayers.

Prostitution (contrary to what young male libertarians may think) causes societal pain and costs taxpayers.

One more time, you cannot have a prosperous economy as long as there are weak minded individuals who want to feed their latest whim.

811

Many a great mind opined about the destruction of America into a collective starting with the slow and pressured removal of religon from the construct of Her social structure.

The idea revolves around moral decline and the fact that revolution away from the liberty afforded by the system created by the Founding Fathers would be immoral and go agaisnt every fabric of what America is supposed to stand for. So one would have to remove moral standing from the minds of the people in order for them to willingly go along with the destruction of not only their fellow citizens but their own way of life and liberty.

Religion was seen by lefty thinkers as the last standing pillar in their way to devolution of America into the cess pool of collective utopian dreamland.

Abortion and Gay Marriage are seen as assults on these very social constructs that are to protect us from decline.

812

[quote]ZEB wrote:
Abortion causes societal pain and costs taxpayers.

Drug abuse causes societal pain and costs taxpayers.

Prostitution (contrary to what young male libertarians may think) causes societal pain and costs taxpayers.

One more time, you cannot have a prosperous economy as long as there are weak minded individuals who want to feed their latest whim.

[/quote]

I’d like you to provide some more detail about the above and tell me again why it’s the government’s role to fix those.

What societal woes does abortion cause? If a young (or old) woman has an abortion how did that impact me or you in any way?

And of course everyone is using drugs casually is also abusing them right? Sorta like everyone who has a beer is also a drunkard. I’m of course referring to pot when I talk about casual use.

And prostitution is the oldest profession because there’s always been a demand for sex. Again, what societal woes would legalized prostitution cause. The reason it causes any woes now is because it’s illegal.

What you’re really saying here is that you’re morally against those things and therefore everyone else should be too. And because you think that you also think that we should outlaw those things. In other words you want to legislate morality.

Here’s something you’ve probably not thought about but greed is also a vice and has caused us innumerable problems particularly in our financial sector. Do we also legislate greed?

In my mind the solution to the problems of drug abuse or people feeling like abortion is the only way out isn’t to outlaw these things but to understand what causes people to think like that. We should be looking at what’s wrong in our society and fixing those instead of trying to eliminate the symptoms.

james

813

[quote]ZEB wrote:

Abortion causes societal pain and costs taxpayers.[/quote]

? People raising 10 kids on welfare causes societal pain and costs tax payers also.

You seem to be ignoring the next 18+ years of life of that kid that you are NOT thinking about that involve way more expense and possible jail time depending on the circumstances.

[quote]

Drug abuse causes societal pain and costs taxpayers.[/quote]

True. Drug ABUSE does this. The question is, who decides what ABUSE is?

You seem to think anyone smoking marijuana at all is “abuse”.

[quote]

Prostitution (contrary to what young male libertarians may think) causes societal pain and costs taxpayers.[/quote]

?

How? Prostitution is a service. Men need sex. They provide it. If that causes “societal pain” that would only be due to that individuals personal issues. How does a man having sex with a woman by paying for it cause “societal pain”?

? You mean like most humans on the planet? You serious? Most of the people on this rock live to feed their latest whim.

Hell, have YOU cured cancer or done something literally outstanding enough to justify your existence over another’s?

If not, then what makes you different?

814

[quote]Professor X wrote:

Prostitution is a service. Men need sex. They provide it.

[/quote]

Agreed.
I for one, think all women should charge for sex outside marriage.
That would solve the problem of abortion as she would be able to pay for it and/or raising children from unwanted pregnancies.

815

[quote]Professor X wrote:

[quote]ZEB wrote:

Abortion causes societal pain and costs taxpayers.[/quote]

? People raising 10 kids on welfare causes societal pain and costs tax payers also.

You seem to be ignoring the next 18+ years of life of that kid that you are NOT thinking about that involve way more expense and possible jail time depending on the circumstances.

[quote]

Drug abuse causes societal pain and costs taxpayers.[/quote]

True. Drug ABUSE does this. The question is, who decides what ABUSE is?

You seem to think anyone smoking marijuana at all is “abuse”.

[quote]

Prostitution (contrary to what young male libertarians may think) causes societal pain and costs taxpayers.[/quote]

?

How? Prostitution is a service. Men need sex. They provide it. If that causes “societal pain” that would only be due to that individuals personal issues. How does a man having sex with a woman by paying for it cause “societal pain”?

? You mean like most humans on the planet? You serious? Most of the people on this rock live to feed their latest whim.

Hell, have YOU cured cancer or done something literally outstanding enough to justify your existence over another’s?

If not, then what makes you different?[/quote]

X,

Never in my wildest mind, did I ever consider having 10 kids, especially if I could not raise them properly. I can’t imagine I am the only guy who thinks like this, otherwise we would have TONS of men who fathered a football team.

Drug abuse ? Simple, if your habit costs ME something, then there is a problem. I agree that occasional usage is fine, but when my wallet opens because someone needs subsidized help for rehab, hell no. Same thing with crap food, I don’t want to pay for someone because they use a shovel instead of a fork.

Prostitution ? I doubt this will ever be repressed, it, along with eating, are probably the two strongest urges in human biology.

If your latest whim is in direct relation to your existence on this Earth, I would not call that a whim, I would probably look at that as a necessity. Someone starving for food is not the same argument as a heroine addict needing his fix.

816

On a side note, HUGE Union protest here in Los Angeles, at LAX Airport.

Apparently, the SEIU bussed in a bunch of protestors, blocking Century Blvd (the main entrance into LAX), because some of the airport workers are trying to branch off from the Union and negotiate their contracts without Union input.

This is a huge mess.

817

[quote]Professor X wrote:<<< ? You mean like most humans on the planet? You serious? Most of the people on this rock live to feed their latest whim. >>>[/quote]Yes, this is called sin Doc and it IS the universal curse of mankind for which the risen death defeating Christ of God is the one and only solution.

818

[quote]atypical1 wrote:

[quote]ZEB wrote:
Abortion causes societal pain and costs taxpayers.

Drug abuse causes societal pain and costs taxpayers.

Prostitution (contrary to what young male libertarians may think) causes societal pain and costs taxpayers.

One more time, you cannot have a prosperous economy as long as there are weak minded individuals who want to feed their latest whim.

[/quote]

I’d like you to provide some more detail about the above and tell me again why it’s the government’s role to fix those.

What societal woes does abortion cause? If a young (or old) woman has an abortion how did that impact me or you in any way?

And of course everyone is using drugs casually is also abusing them right? Sorta like everyone who has a beer is also a drunkard. I’m of course referring to pot when I talk about casual use.

And prostitution is the oldest profession because there’s always been a demand for sex. Again, what societal woes would legalized prostitution cause. The reason it causes any woes now is because it’s illegal.

What you’re really saying here is that you’re morally against those things and therefore everyone else should be too. And because you think that you also think that we should outlaw those things. In other words you want to legislate morality.

Here’s something you’ve probably not thought about but greed is also a vice and has caused us innumerable problems particularly in our financial sector. Do we also legislate greed?

In my mind the solution to the problems of drug abuse or people feeling like abortion is the only way out isn’t to outlaw these things but to understand what causes people to think like that. We should be looking at what’s wrong in our society and fixing those instead of trying to eliminate the symptoms.

james[/quote]

I agree greed is yet one more vice…that libertarians will do nothing about.

When you say thinks like “some woman having an abortion doesn’t impact my life…” that says more about you and the other young males who follow this idiotic libertarian philosophy. Because I have a surprise for you, eventually everything impacts you!

There are many things that on their face do not impact you but in reality will eventually impact you in a very nasty way:

Who cares if people take drugs it doesn’t impact you, until someone breaks into your home, or a loved ones home and kills them for their TV because they need another fix.

Who cares if prostitution is legal it doesn’t impact you until there are numerous outbreaks of STD’s, HIV and a host of other sexually transmitted diseases. And families are broken because of marital infidelity. And it doesn’t just effect someone else, it effects people that you know. Do you care now?

Who cares if people drink until they can’t stand up, until one of those drunks hits one of your loved ones head on in an auto accident and kills them.

I can’t explain it any better than that.

You are a young male who is enthralled with libertarianism. It sounds cool, cheap and the way things ought to be…but it just totally wrong minded and takes the short-term view to an extreme degree. And all the words typed on a message board won’t change your mind because you just have not lived long enough to see the impact DIRECTLY ON YOU of the many ills of which I speak.

The only thing that will change your mind is living another 10-15 years. And that is not a put down, it’s just the way it is.

Anyway, I want to deliver my thread back to its original purpose of “Why Obama Won”

819

[quote]Professor X wrote:
ZEB wrote:

One more time, you cannot have a prosperous economy as long as there are weak minded individuals who want to feed their latest whim.

? You mean like most humans on the planet? You serious? Most of the people on this rock live to feed their latest whim.
[/quote]

And that’s why we have all the pain that we do. It begins with people taking the wrong action for some selfish short term motive.

Glad we agree.

820

@ njrusmc:
You seem a reasonable fella. I don’t remember you to be honest so if we interacted before I apologize. If you wish to discuss this further we should go either to Hijack Haven or some other thread. Sorry ZEB, although what I was saying IS why Obama won.