Why Not Sweden?

[quote]Big_Boss wrote:
What did Bin Laden “really gain by attacking” the US? Lixy,think about it…you answered your own question…you’re “smart.” [/quote]

As far as I can tell, he gained nothing. Subsequent attacks were to get some attention and make a statement.

I won’t list the dozens of countries the US attacked post-WWII because it’ll take way too much time. Suffice it to say that, more often than not, the reasons put forth for military intervention were more than dubious.

I don’t. But I know what the “Patriot act” is, and I’m certain your forefathers would be appalled by your complacency to the fearmongers.

Don’t be a dick. Nobody supports Ben Laden. His crew and himself are the scum of the Earth. That goes without saying. There no much point arguing with his ilk. They literally live to die, not to forward society or anything else.

On the other hand, we have a “civilized” country with a huge potential to do harm to other countries. Said country is supposedly a democracy where public opinion matters. Seeing how you fucked up a country (Granted. It wasn’t rainbowland to start with) and alienated a great deal of people around the world, I see it as my duty to point out your wrongdoings. Remember that Iraq had nothing to do with 9/11.

Again, despite what you might hear on Fox, Iraq had nothing to do with Al-Qaeda. Your invasion caused Jihadist to converge to Iraq. As for your pathetic attempt to relate Al-Qaeda in Iraq to Nazi Germany, let me tell you that for every Al-Qaeda member you get in Iraq, you’re killing a lot of innocents who have absolutely nothing to do with the terrorist organization. In the case of Germany you could have said “fuck 'em” because they voted the Fuhrer in, but what’s the sin of Iraqi children blasted by your bombs? Seriously.

Bah, some of you folks need to get over your self-love and idolization.

If you look at your own hands you will see that they too are stained red with blood.

[quote]Big_Boss wrote:
What did Bin Laden “really gain by attacking” the US? Lixy,think about it…you answered your own question…you’re “smart.” As for the “fact” about the Nazis…it was needed to buffer your misguided posts about our country “attacking others for no good reason.”

Do you live in the US?..do you see all our principles going down the drain? What principles does your country stand for? I’ll agree that the principles established are being manipulated by our government but thats another story.

And since our behavior is what you condemn…by default are you supporting Bin Laden’s? …hmm…interesting…so did Sweden knowingly support Hitler and turn its back to Jews…or was it doing its best to stay “neutral?” We’re not going just sit back and let people attack us or turn our back to those that terrorize innocent people.[/quote]

Big Boss, Lixy just goes to school in Sweden. He is a Muslim of French/Algerian descent.

Muslims are responsible for the plight of Palestinians. Sorry, it’s true. Until they cast out their radical clerics, shut down their martyrdom inspiring media, and tell the bomb makers “fuck off, not my child” Israel will never (and rightfully so) be able to live in peace alongside a Palestinian nation.

You’ll never be able to put that cart before the horse. Not when Palestinian textbooks teach that Palestine includes the land of Israel. And yes, they do teach this. I’ll be happy to provide the links, again.

[quote]Sloth wrote:
Muslims are responsible for the plight of Palestinians. Sorry, it’s true. Until they cast out their radical clerics, shut down their martyrdom inspiring media, and tell the bomb makers “fuck off, not my child” Israel will never (and rightfully so) be able to live in peace alongside a Palestinian nation.

You’ll never be able to put that cart before the horse. Not when Palestinian textbooks teach that Palestine includes the land of Israel. And yes, they do teach this. I’ll be happy to provide the links, again.[/quote]

Sloth,

You just broke Lixy’s cardinal rule of using the words “muslims” and “responsible” in the same sentence. You strayed off the path of victimhood…

Please, stick to the script. They are poor victims… They have no role in their own misery based on their capacity of never missing an opportunity to miss an opportunity - for peace or dialogue with the west. They embrace, rather than rebuke the bomb makers, and the firey imams inciting their kids to strap on the explosives. Lixy does not wish you to raise these issues.

The fact that the Palestinians would rather have their humanitarian aid spent on bullets vs. indoor plumbing gives you an idea of where their priorities are.

Just my two cents.

[quote]Zap Branigan wrote:

Big Boss, Lixy just goes to school in Sweden. He is a Muslim of French/Algerian descent.[/quote]

good for him…my brotha…ha!

Lixy,I’m done with you…I see that you’re obviously biased for above mentioned reasons…as-salamu alaykum,my brotha.

I thought i’d add my extensive knowledge of… Switzerland to the table. (Being Swiss and all).

a) The Nazis did attack Switzerland. It was only after they struck a deal that they were allowed to be “free”.

b) Switzerland has done lots of business with Israel, mainly selling weaponry. (Tanks specifically, Airplanes and ammunition). I think they stopped this last year, i’m not sure but it had been going on for a long time.

Unlike America or Britain, Sweden and Switzerland don’t have large muslim populations. They are still at the point of infiltrating those countries and setting up camp. Terrorism at this point in time might cause a curtailment of the infiltration.

The real problem Lixy is that violence is an integral part of the islamic religion. Islam has a history of violence that goes all the way back to it’s founder Mohammad, who did a lot of torturing, maiming and killing. It should be noted that Mohammad did most of if not all of his killing after he found religion.

Whatever peaceful practices have crept into the religion over the last fifteen centuries, you can not escape the fact that the man who founded it was a killer. This is why violence is such an inescapable recurring theme in Islam.

The Palestinians prove my point. While we have seen quite a few muslim Palestinians blow up buses and airplanes we haven’t seen the same behaviour from Christian Palestinians. Have we? So the premise that America supporting Israel is the cause of all this is a bunch of BS.

Weather or not Iraq had anything to do with 9/11 is another spurious issue. Saddam had a long history of violence and a very good reason to hold a grudge (the gulf war, remember?) and the American army in Saudi Arabia that was there to contain him was a major source of irritation in the muslim world. Something had to be done to get the army out of Saudi Arabia and assuming that Saddam wouldn’t try to get in on the action with Bin Laden would have been taking a chance on someone with a proven history of violence.

Of course jihadists have gone into Iraq. Compared to the US, it’s the path of least resistance. They don’t have to worry about getting through customs or speaking the language and it isn’t far from their home countries.

Maybe lixy and vroom should get off each others cocks lond enough to realize they are in a little boy molesting anal train and start doing something productive like take a course in under water suicide bombing

you know the kind where you only get one lesson.

Lixy, listen up. You are about to be schooled.

The Palestinian cause has traditionally been radical and leftwing, with the majority of its proponents comprising an ugly mix of national socialists and Marxist-Leninists. In Europe, this sordid political current manifested itself in the form of the Red Army Fraction (Baader-Meinhof gang), a group responsible for hijackings and several other acts of terror in the name of Palestine. I mention in passing that Horst Mahler, a founder of this group, is now a member of far-right German think tank, which demonstrates just how short the jump is from far-left to far-right.

This collection of brown and red factions ran under the banner of the PLO and was ultimately controlled by the Egyptian autocracy, the original enemy of the Islamists. Before we go any further, it is crucial to reveal how the jihadists defined their enemies. Here it is useful to turn to ‘The Forgotten Duty’ a booklet by Mohammed Abd al-Salam Faraj - the man who coordinated the assassination of Sadat.

In the booklet, Faraj divides the enemies of Islam into two categories, the far enemy (the United States and Israel) and the near enemy (the secularist Arab autocracies), and he stresses the importance of overthrowing the latter. “Fighting the near enemy must take priority over that of the far enemy” because a liberation of Jerusalem by the apostate governments would mainly benefit the impious. Zawahiri, Al Qaeda’s number two man, would later echo these sentiments in a 1995 essay titled “The Road to Jerusalem Goes Through Cairo”: “Jerusalem will not be liberated unless the battle for Egypt and Algeria is won and unless Egypt is liberated.” So the real enemy of the Islamist was the local secular dictators, a card that Israel would use against the Marxists in Gaza and that the Americans would use against the Russians in Afghanistan. Both governments would later regret these cynical moves.

So Israel was not the galvanizing force of the Jihadist movement, the U.S. backed secular dictatorships were. But why did the Islamists, or religious nationalists, abandon the struggle against their local government and set their sights on an even bigger target, the US’ First of all, after the assassination of Sadat, the Jihadists were being hammered by the governmental security apparatus. By the late 90’s, they had been brought to their knees and were faced with two choices: surrender and shift strategies or be annihilated.

Recognizing the perilous situation for what it was, the Jihadists adopt a new course of action; a strategy articulated by one Osama bin Laden. Bin Laden claimed that attacking the United States, or “cutting the head off the snake”, as he called it, would cause the apostate governments “to fall like ripened fruit”. This promise satisfied the religious nationalists, but Osama was in possession of a slightly different set of motivations.

Like Majin said in the shortest and sanest post on this thread, Osama was upset by the U.S. presence in the Middle East, in particular, the land of the two Holy cities (Saudi Arabia). Horrified by the prospect of U.S. soldiers treading on holy sand, Bin Laden entered into dialogue with Saudi princes, where he promised that he could muster an army of mujadeen to expel Saddam from Kuwait. With the Ba’athist army at the door, the Saudi leadership had no desire to place their fate in the hands of a madman with an imaginary army and instead petitioned the United States to push back the expansionist Iraqi regime.

Humiliated and bitter, Bin Laden used this experience as a rallying cry for Salafist Saudis who were reluctant to go to war with America. In his diaries Al-Bahri, Osama�??s bodyguard, recounts common fears of the young Salafists in his diary:

Some of the Salafi current asked in surprise: “Jihad against America?!” Some of them even said, “America knows everything about us. It knows even the label of our underwear.”

However, Al-Bahri concludes that Osama’s effort was successful because it revealed to the Salafists the hypocrisy of the Saudi establishment and “all these things opened new horizons for the youths (Saudi Salafists), broadened their mental faculties and changed their position”.

So there you have it. The main motivation for going to war against the United States was its presence in the Gulf and its support of pro-Western secular autocracies, not Israel. Nothing quite like actually reading primary sources and not some hack Marxist tract in a schizoid magazine like Z-Rag. As for the Bin Laden’s mad “Sweden rant”, it deserves its relegation to internet meme status, ranked somewhere between Bush’s “Don’t forget Poland!” and Stevens’s “It’s a series of tubes!”

[quote]Veratyr wrote:

[/quote]

Couldn’t agree more. Actually I can, but the points of contention would be minor details.

Thanks for the valuable contribution.

Veratyr,

Nice overview. Thanks for posting it.