[quote]Quick Ben wrote:
Want to stay natural? Choose between being lean and weak/fat and strong.
[/quote]
Implying that anyone who doesn’t take PED’s is either weak or fat? Interesting angle to take…and by interesting I mean completely retarded and false.
[/quote]
The OP of this thread cannot stay lean AND get jacked as a natural, that’s a fact. If he goes on a serious bulk as a natural, he will have to accept the fat gain that comes along with the strength and muscle, and keep at it for long enough that he can keep most of the muscle when he diets down. Drugs will allow him to stay leaner while bulking, if he chooses that route.
You can be reasonably strong and lean as a natural, sure. You CAN’T stay lean all the time and get to that point, unless you’re a genetic marvel. [/quote]
Depends on what you mean by lean. You don’t ever have to get fat.
[quote]Quick Ben wrote:
Want to stay natural? Choose between being lean and weak/fat and strong.
[/quote]
Implying that anyone who doesn’t take PED’s is either weak or fat? Interesting angle to take…and by interesting I mean completely retarded and false.
[/quote]
The OP of this thread cannot stay lean AND get jacked as a natural, that’s a fact. If he goes on a serious bulk as a natural, he will have to accept the fat gain that comes along with the strength and muscle, and keep at it for long enough that he can keep most of the muscle when he diets down. Drugs will allow him to stay leaner while bulking, if he chooses that route.
You can be reasonably strong and lean as a natural, sure. You CAN’T stay lean all the time and get to that point, unless you’re a genetic marvel. [/quote]
I suppose it depends on your definition of lean, yeah single figure bf% will be seriously hard/nigh on impossible depending on genetic factors, but 10-14% I don’t see why not? I’m definitely not arguing that drugs would not seriously help, I just disagree with the whole idea that you have to get fat to put on muscle. Then again as I said, it depends what your definition of lean is, but from personal experience I managed to gain strength at a period when I was 10-12% bf (estimated, but now I am ~14% and I was a darnsight leaner back then)
I believe that it is possible to have abs (albeit not a full on chiseled 8 pack) while gaining muscle and getting stronger without being on juice.
[quote]Quick Ben wrote:
Want to stay natural? Choose between being lean and weak/fat and strong.
[/quote]
Implying that anyone who doesn’t take PED’s is either weak or fat? Interesting angle to take…and by interesting I mean completely retarded and false.
[/quote]
The OP of this thread cannot stay lean AND get jacked as a natural, that’s a fact. If he goes on a serious bulk as a natural, he will have to accept the fat gain that comes along with the strength and muscle, and keep at it for long enough that he can keep most of the muscle when he diets down. Drugs will allow him to stay leaner while bulking, if he chooses that route.
You can be reasonably strong and lean as a natural, sure. You CAN’T stay lean all the time and get to that point, unless you’re a genetic marvel. [/quote]
This thread is about to become a shithole, but the whole natty being lean + strong is so subjective it’s silly, though I am inclined to go with Quick Ben’s belief, you are going to have to lean towards one end of the spectrum more than the other if natty. However, what’s ‘lean’ for someone is really dependent on not only their opinion, but genetics. Some people hold fat in a way that their 12-15% looks pretty lean, and some people have to be single digits to even look significantly lean. That’s something to keep in mind.
[quote]Spidey22 wrote:
This thread is about to become a shithole, but the whole natty being lean + strong is so subjective it’s silly, though I am inclined to go with Quick Ben’s belief, you are going to have to lean towards one end of the spectrum more than the other if natty. [/quote]
What makes you think that someone on drugs who is bulking to maximise muscle growth and strength is going to stay lean when he can consume more calories and progress faster? Do you see many other high profile powerlifters looking like Dan Green?
[quote]Spidey22 wrote:
This thread is about to become a shithole, but the whole natty being lean + strong is so subjective it’s silly, though I am inclined to go with Quick Ben’s belief, you are going to have to lean towards one end of the spectrum more than the other if natty. [/quote]
What makes you think that someone on drugs who is bulking to maximise muscle growth and strength is going to stay lean when he can consume more calories and progress faster? Do you see many other high profile powerlifters looking like Dan Green? [/quote]
Huh? I think I’m confused by your question? Are you asking examples of other PL’ers who look like Dan green aka big and lean? I mean Jesse norris is pretty lean? I’m not saying you can’t be impressive, but I mean I just don’t think most ppl of average height will be 200+ lbs and really lean.
I mean I don’t think that matters or is bad, but just as a natty it’s good to kind of know you’re ‘lean’ BW just isn’t probably going to hold the size most want. But who cares?
[quote]Quick Ben wrote:
I don’t think he was really looking for advice, just venting some frustration. We can’t all be Dan Green, lol. All he said is he’s dieting for a meet now, which is not much to go on for giving advice anyway. [/quote]
I’m still curious what you think would work best in this situation. I feel like all we’ve discussed is what won’t work.
[quote]Quick Ben wrote:
Want to stay natural? Choose between being lean and weak/fat and strong.
[/quote]
Implying that anyone who doesn’t take PED’s is either weak or fat? Interesting angle to take…and by interesting I mean completely retarded and false.
[/quote]
The OP of this thread cannot stay lean AND get jacked as a natural, that’s a fact. If he goes on a serious bulk as a natural, he will have to accept the fat gain that comes along with the strength and muscle, and keep at it for long enough that he can keep most of the muscle when he diets down. Drugs will allow him to stay leaner while bulking, if he chooses that route.
You can be reasonably strong and lean as a natural, sure. You CAN’T stay lean all the time and get to that point, unless you’re a genetic marvel. [/quote]
What is your prior experience with drugs?[/quote]
My drug use is purely recreational.
Juice? Just friends (who are honest about what they take and the difference it makes) If you think that disqualifies me from discussing it then fair enough. The point still stands that if the OP had Kingbeef-like genetics and the ability to get jacked while staying that lean, he would know it already.
[quote]Quick Ben wrote:
I don’t think he was really looking for advice, just venting some frustration. We can’t all be Dan Green, lol. All he said is he’s dieting for a meet now, which is not much to go on for giving advice anyway. [/quote]
I’m still curious what you think would work best in this situation. I feel like all we’ve discussed is what won’t work.[/quote]
In general I think that someone who is skinny and want to carry some size -while staying natural to boot -has to dedicate a significant amount of time working on size. That will in all likelihood mean that he will have to accept some fat gain. Not obesity, I’m talking about being between 15-20% bodyfat at the end of a long bulk. When he diets down after that, he’ll have some muscle to show for it. Competing before that initial size is built and never going all out for size? I expect he will stay about the same size he is now, give or take a few lbs.
Build size while you still can, it doesn’t get any fucking easier after you turn 30. lol
[quote]Spidey22 wrote:
This thread is about to become a shithole, but the whole natty being lean + strong is so subjective it’s silly, though I am inclined to go with Quick Ben’s belief, you are going to have to lean towards one end of the spectrum more than the other if natty. [/quote]
What makes you think that someone on drugs who is bulking to maximise muscle growth and strength is going to stay lean when he can consume more calories and progress faster? Do you see many other high profile powerlifters looking like Dan Green? [/quote]
Huh? I think I’m confused by your question? Are you asking examples of other PL’ers who look like Dan green aka big and lean? I mean Jesse norris is pretty lean? I’m not saying you can’t be impressive, but I mean I just don’t think most ppl of average height will be 200+ lbs and really lean.
I mean I don’t think that matters or is bad, but just as a natty it’s good to kind of know you’re ‘lean’ BW just isn’t probably going to hold the size most want. But who cares?
[/quote]
I am saying someone training on drugs near an advanced stage of development is going to have the same problems as a natty when it comes to progress vs leanness. If that were not true, most of the top ranked powerlifters would look like Dan Green. In the end, it all still comes down to training, diet and genetics.
I’m not purposefully getting into a fight with you lol. I just thought this needed to be clarified due to Quick Ben’s nonsensical posts and the fact that the OP is 19 and has enquired about using drugs before.
[quote]Quick Ben wrote:
Want to stay natural? Choose between being lean and weak/fat and strong.
[/quote]
Implying that anyone who doesn’t take PED’s is either weak or fat? Interesting angle to take…and by interesting I mean completely retarded and false.
[/quote]
The OP of this thread cannot stay lean AND get jacked as a natural, that’s a fact. If he goes on a serious bulk as a natural, he will have to accept the fat gain that comes along with the strength and muscle, and keep at it for long enough that he can keep most of the muscle when he diets down. Drugs will allow him to stay leaner while bulking, if he chooses that route.
You can be reasonably strong and lean as a natural, sure. You CAN’T stay lean all the time and get to that point, unless you’re a genetic marvel. [/quote]
What is your prior experience with drugs?[/quote]
My drug use is purely recreational.
Juice? Just friends (who are honest about what they take and the difference it makes) If you think that disqualifies me from discussing it then fair enough. The point still stands that if the OP had Kingbeef-like genetics and the ability to get jacked while staying that lean, he would know it already.
[/quote]
Yes. I do think you should not discuss this. Not because you have not used, but you are talking out of your ass using second hand info. The only conclusion I could make out of your previous posts was that you either know jack shit or you’re one of those 175lb kids on 2g of anabolics a week.
This is not personal and I am sorry if this offends you.
We discuss all kinds of shit on this board with secondhand knowledge/observation. The only time someone gets their panties in a twist about it is when it’s about drugs… funny that
[quote]Quick Ben wrote:
In general I think that someone who is skinny and want to carry some size -while staying natural to boot -has to dedicate a significant amount of time working on size. That will in all likelihood mean that he will have to accept some fat gain. Not obesity, I’m talking about being between 15-20% bodyfat at the end of a long bulk. When he diets down after that, he’ll have some muscle to show for it. Competing before that initial size is built and never going all out for size? I expect he will stay about the same size he is now, give or take a few lbs.
Build size while you still can, it doesn’t get any fucking easier after you turn 30. lol [/quote] I think you are underestimating the human potential. Plus, if you are bulking and you are getting fat, you are doing it too fast. Slow down the bulk. No need to get above 15% bodyfat even on a serious bulk. A bulk means you are trying to maximize muscle growth, not fat growth. Sure there will be a slight amount of fat, but if you do it right, and are careful, that can be minimized.
[quote]Quick Ben wrote:
In general I think that someone who is skinny and want to carry some size -while staying natural to boot -has to dedicate a significant amount of time working on size. That will in all likelihood mean that he will have to accept some fat gain. Not obesity, I’m talking about being between 15-20% bodyfat at the end of a long bulk. When he diets down after that, he’ll have some muscle to show for it. Competing before that initial size is built and never going all out for size? I expect he will stay about the same size he is now, give or take a few lbs.
Build size while you still can, it doesn’t get any fucking easier after you turn 30. lol [/quote] I think you are underestimating the human potential. Plus, if you are bulking and you are getting fat, you are doing it too fast. Slow down the bulk. No need to get above 15% bodyfat even on a serious bulk. A bulk means you are trying to maximize muscle growth, not fat growth. Sure there will be a slight amount of fat, but if you do it right, and are careful, that can be minimized.
[/quote]
You also have to remember you can gain fat on a bulk and stay at the same BF%.
I think there is more of a sweet spot for BF% on a bulk than there is some continual amount of fat you need to accumulate while bulking.
I don’t have much to add to this, but I just think it’s worth remembering the fact that there is exactly 1 person who looks like Dan Green. And his name is Dan Green. He’s truly an anomaly as a human. Just saying. Although I think Chris Duffin is right up there with him.
