[quote]forlife wrote:<<< I believe people have inherent worth. I believe there is beauty in the world. I believe love is the purpose and reward of life. >>>[/quote]And you have absolutely no basis for doing so. None, nada zilch, zeeroh. I believe you have value because God values you. I care about your future because He cared about mine. You are beyond clueless elder forlife. Repent, believe the one true gospel and live.
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I thought your god only valued those that he chose to save from everlasting suffering, and even then only for the purpose of glorifying himself. Which is it?
Why people need to make up a supernatural being in order to be decent to one another is beyond me. You can drone about how I have no basis for loving others all you want, but it doesn’t change the fact that I actually do love others for their own sake, and not because a puppetmaster forced me to do so.
[quote]forlife wrote:<<< I believe people have inherent worth. I believe there is beauty in the world. I believe love is the purpose and reward of life. >>>[/quote]And you have absolutely no basis for doing so. None, nada zilch, zeeroh. I believe you have value because God values you. I care about your future because He cared about mine. You are beyond clueless elder forlife. Repent, believe the one true gospel and live.
[/quote]
Yeah, forlife, I have to agree with this. I seem to recall a few of us challenging you on that statement a while back and your final justification as to the inherent value of “love” ended up being pretty circular and extremely subjective.
You are a highly intelligent guy, and I’ve watched you argue your way out of some pretty tightly wrapped bindings, but that one up there, Houdini couldn’t twist and wriggle his way out of that. [/quote]
Thanks, I think you and Tiribulus are intelligent as well.
I’ve never argued that morality is objective. My contention with religion is not the morals it holds, but the objective claims it makes to rationalize those morals. Either the universe was created by a supernatural being or it wasn’t. Either Jesus and/or Buddha walked on water as their adherents claim, or they didn’t. These are objective beliefs that bear on reality, and are either true or not.
Morality, by contrast, is not demonstrably objective. There is no magical standard by which all human behavior is judged, or if there is such a standard, no reliable evidence has been provided to date to support it.
Maybe the law of karma is just as real as the law of gravity. I’m open to the idea, but I can’t claim it’s true unless there’s actual evidence to support the claim. Until then, I can only evaluate what my personal values are, and do my best to follow them.
[quote]CappedAndPlanIt wrote:<<< Thanks man. I think I’m seeing Tirib’s point of view more clearly now. You mention inherent value - I don’t know that I believe in inherent or intrinsic value. I mean, things have value, but only inasmuch as they relate to other things.
If Tiribs God is true, He would be the only thing that could possibly have inherent value, because He would be the only thing that could exist without a relationship to anything else (and would be responsible for all other relationships).
Right, Tirib?[/quote]Keep goin.
[/quote]Not really sure what else to add.[/quote]Things, ALL things, are on every level and in every way, actual AND possible, exactly as God defines them. We live in the truth in precise proportion to our conformity to His definitions. In our lost state without Christ not even the simplest of propositions is held in actual truth. To you 2+2=4 because that’s just the way it is. To me 2+2=4 because mathematical certainty is an accessible finite reflection of the God whose perfectly ordered mind decreed it so. Whether you like it or not (I suspect not) your conclusion of 4 from 2+2 is only true to you because you are a creature of God made by Him in His image. You deny that in exactly the manner Paul tells me (and you) in Romans 1 that the as yet unredeemed are supposed to.
This is why I hold an evidentialist apologetic to be wholly inadequate at best. We don’t even view 1st grade math the same. How am I supposed to argue all the rest of this philosophical and empirical data with you (which I don’t mind tellin ya I actually could do). You CANNOT see it in truth from your side of the spiritual grave. I don’t say that to be a self righteous religious ass. Truly I don’t, but it happens to be case as I myself am living proof of. The difference between you and I is Jesus. It has nothing to do with our intelligence or goodness and thanks be to Him that it doesn’t.
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Could I choose to believe? Or wouldn’t I have to be elected?
[quote]forlife wrote:<<< I believe people have inherent worth. I believe there is beauty in the world. I believe love is the purpose and reward of life. >>>[/quote]And you have absolutely no basis for doing so. None, nada zilch, zeeroh. I believe you have value because God values you. I care about your future because He cared about mine. You are beyond clueless elder forlife. Repent, believe the one true gospel and live.
[/quote]
Yeah, forlife, I have to agree with this. I seem to recall a few of us challenging you on that statement a while back and your final justification as to the inherent value of “love” ended up being pretty circular and extremely subjective.
You are a highly intelligent guy, and I’ve watched you argue your way out of some pretty tightly wrapped bindings, but that one up there, Houdini couldn’t twist and wriggle his way out of that. [/quote]
Actually, his viewpoint is there only one where people can have inherent value. To believe in God is to believe that God gives everythign value - that value is not inherent.
Why would it be fair for you to say that God has inherent value (because God gives himself value), but not ok for Forlife to say that humans have inherent value?
[quote]forlife wrote:<<< I thought your god only valued those that he chose to save from everlasting suffering, and even then only for the purpose of glorifying himself. Which is it. >>>[/quote]I just cannot get myself to ignore you no matter how woefully you continue to misunderstand. God’s image IS the value all men have before Him, you included. His glory is derived from His unbelievably gracious lovingkindness in saving His elect AND His unbelievably just and holy judgment in damning the rest. The rest who I might add wouldn’t have it any other way.
ALL WILL glorify Him whether in their persistence in sin or their repentance unto life and that is their value. For the one thousandth time. I have no idea who the elect are except for my self only. I treat everybody as though they are. I want them in heaven with me as my brothers and sisters. That includes you and everybody else here. You are no more deserving of His eternal wrath without the righteousness of Christ than I am. I value you as I value myself because of How mercifully He valued me.
Your mind is decaying in the death of sin. You are indeed an intelligent guy. This has nothing to do with intelligence. God has gifted you with a fine set of tools that you use to erect monuments to your own rebellion. He WILL glorify Himself in your person. I truly pray it is by your repentance.
[quote]CappedAndPlanIt wrote:<<< Could I choose to believe? Or wouldn’t I have to be elected?[/quote]If you are one of the elect in Christ you WILL choose to believe because He will make you alive, freeing your will from slavery to your flesh and draw you to Himself. You will do it humbly, willingly and joyously. This is seen everywhere in the bible when God is allowed to be God.
If you do choose to believe you ARE one of the elect in Christ because dead men can’t raise themselves and Jesus Himself said that no one CAN come to Him unless the Father draw Him.
If God were to wait for the spiritually dead to choose Him Christ died for nothing.
[quote]CappedAndPlanIt wrote:<<< Could I choose to believe? Or wouldn’t I have to be elected?[/quote]If you are one of the elect in Christ you WILL choose to believe because He will make you alive, freeing your will from slavery to your flesh and draw you to Himself. You will do it humbly, willingly and joyously. This is seen everywhere in the bible when God is allowed to be God.
If you do choose to believe you ARE one of the elect in Christ because dead men can’t raise themselves and Jesus Himself said that no one CAN come to Him unless the Father draw Him.
If God were to wait for the spiritually dead to choose Him Christ died for nothing.
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Um. So I can’t just choose to believe then? It has to come from Gods decision?
[quote]CappedAndPlanIt wrote:<<< Could I choose to believe? Or wouldn’t I have to be elected?[/quote]If you are one of the elect in Christ you WILL choose to believe because He will make you alive, freeing your will from slavery to your flesh and draw you to Himself. You will do it humbly, willingly and joyously. This is seen everywhere in the bible when God is allowed to be God.
If you do choose to believe you ARE one of the elect in Christ because dead men can’t raise themselves and Jesus Himself said that no one CAN come to Him unless the Father draw Him.
If God were to wait for the spiritually dead to choose Him Christ died for nothing.
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You should cut and paste this into my free will thread and then explain it to me, because this is where I get lost.
If I’m possibly understanding what you are implying (stating), and combine it with the idea of “foreknow” that you talked about earlier, along with a few notions of my own, then I almost get the idea that you and the Catholics may not be talking about such different conditions.
If what I’m thinking is true, then perhaps there has been a lot of undue understanding between the two of our groups. The reason I feel I’m wrong is actually because of just how much disagreement there has been, though. At this point I have a hard time believing we could have been talking about the same thing, and if we had that it could have been cleared up with just a bit of plain speaking. I’ll just cut and paste this over there so that we don’t have two threads about the same thing going on. Capped you are welcome to respond there, too, though I doubt you were looking to go down the Catholic/Protestant road in this discussion.
[quote]CappedAndPlanIt wrote:<<< Could I choose to believe? Or wouldn’t I have to be elected?[/quote]If you are one of the elect in Christ you WILL choose to believe because He will make you alive, freeing your will from slavery to your flesh and draw you to Himself. You will do it humbly, willingly and joyously. This is seen everywhere in the bible when God is allowed to be God.
If you do choose to believe you ARE one of the elect in Christ because dead men can’t raise themselves and Jesus Himself said that no one CAN come to Him unless the Father draw Him.
If God were to wait for the spiritually dead to choose Him Christ died for nothing.
[/quote]
Um. So I can’t just choose to believe then? It has to come from Gods decision?[/quote]
[quote]Tiribulus wrote: No dead person will ever “just believe”. No.[/quote] So why tell people to repent? Why suggest they believe, if it doesn’t matter what they do, since they will either be elected or not?[/quote]Because I’m commanded to and preaching is the method and means God uses to deliver life to His own. He says so. It is a chief blessing of the redeemed to be used of the God of the universe for the purpose of spiritual reproduction. We preach, He saves. It’s exactly BECAUSE I KNOW not one of the eternally elect in the covenant of grace will be the lost that I’m encouraged to obey. I cannot fail because He cannot fail. It does matter what they do and He sees that they do it without “offering violence to their will” giving them the benefit as if they’d done it themselves. I don’t understand exactly how and gave up trying many years ago. I only know that’s what He says.
Romans 10:15-18
[quote]13-For “everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.”
14-How then will they call on him in whom they have not believed? And how are they to believe in him of whom they have never heard? And how are they to hear without someone preaching? 15-And how are they to preach unless they are sent? As it is written, “How beautiful are the feet of those who preach the good news!”[/quote] In His wondrous loving grace He has decreed that I get to help HIM!!! I know you find this whole thing ridiculous, but that has me with my hands raised to Him in adoring worship. The infinite God that designed me from dust has ordained that some men cannot be saved unless I help Him which of course he has also ordained. Ephesians 2:8-10: [quote]8-For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, 9-not a result of works, so that no one may boast. 10-For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.[/quote] I can hear you thinking “Come on man, doesn’t that make you feel like a robot?” Absolutely not. Guess why. YOU GUESSED!! Because God says I’m not and I trust the God who orders all the vast cosmos and the hearts of men to His own glory over my own puny pathetic microscopic, not to mention sinful, grasp of reality all day long.
[quote]Tiribulus wrote: No dead person will ever “just believe”. No.[/quote] So why tell people to repent? Why suggest they believe, if it doesn’t matter what they do, since they will either be elected or not?[/quote]Because I’m commanded to and preaching is the method and means God uses to deliver life to His own. He says so. It is a chief blessing of the redeemed to be used of the God of the universe for the purpose of spiritual reproduction. We preach, He saves. It’s exactly BECAUSE I KNOW not one of the eternally elect in the covenant of grace will be the lost that I’m encouraged to obey. I cannot fail because He cannot fail. It does matter what they do and He sees that they do it without “offering violence to their will” giving them the benefit as if they’d done it themselves. I don’t understand exactly how and gave up trying many years ago. I only know that’s what He says.
Romans 10:15-18
[quote]13-For “everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.”
14-How then will they call on him in whom they have not believed? And how are they to believe in him of whom they have never heard? And how are they to hear without someone preaching? 15-And how are they to preach unless they are sent? As it is written, “How beautiful are the feet of those who preach the good news!”[/quote] In His wondrous loving grace He has decreed that I get to help HIM!!! I know you find this whole thing ridiculous, but that has me with my hands raised to Him in adoring worship. The infinite God that designed me from dust has ordained that some men cannot be saved unless I help Him which of course he has also ordained. Ephesians 2:8-10: [quote]8-For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, 9-not a result of works, so that no one may boast. 10-For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.[/quote] I can hear you thinking “Come on man, doesn’t that make you feel like a robot?” Absolutely not. Guess why. YOU GUESSED!! Because God says I’m not and I trust the God who orders all the vast cosmos and the hearts of men to His own glory over my own puny pathetic microscopic, not to mention sinful, grasp of reality all day long.
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Holy shit you are messed up. Sorry if that offends, but just WOW. At least BC and Cortes attempt to reconcile their beliefs with logic. I may not agree, or see it as being logical, but God damn I know they are trying.
You just seem to turn your nose at reality and wander off into some kind of self concocted fantasy!
[quote]Makavali wrote:<<< Holy shit you are messed up. Sorry if that offends, but just WOW. At least BC and Cortes attempt to reconcile their beliefs with logic. I may not agree, or see it as being logical, but God damn I know they are trying.
You just seem to turn your nose at reality and wander off into some kind of self concocted fantasy![/quote]Wadda drag.
EDIT: Which is why what BC and Cortes believe will never impact modern society. You are absolutely correct. They (more Chris, but especially Pat) are tripping over themselves to intellectually reconcile with you. The gospel of the glorified Christ demands that YOU reconcile with HIM. Modern religion in it’s insolent quest for relevance has by that very accommodation rendered itself utterly IRRelevant. The absolute unchanging God who is actually there does not condescend to man’s sin and finitude.
EDIT 2: I’ll let capped answer your gravity image. (Rolls eyes). Even He gets that much. Do me proud capped.
[quote]forlife wrote:<<< I thought your god only valued those that he chose to save from everlasting suffering, and even then only for the purpose of glorifying himself. Which is it. >>>[/quote]I just cannot get myself to ignore you no matter how woefully you continue to misunderstand. God’s image IS the value all men have before Him, you included. His glory is derived from His unbelievably gracious lovingkindness in saving His elect AND His unbelievably just and holy judgment in damning the rest. The rest who I might add wouldn’t have it any other way.
ALL WILL glorify Him whether in their persistence in sin or their repentance unto life and that is their value. For the one thousandth time. I have no idea who the elect are except for my self only. I treat everybody as though they are. I want them in heaven with me as my brothers and sisters. That includes you and everybody else here. You are no more deserving of His eternal wrath without the righteousness of Christ than I am. I value you as I value myself because of How mercifully He valued me.
Your mind is decaying in the death of sin. You are indeed an intelligent guy. This has nothing to do with intelligence. God has gifted you with a fine set of tools that you use to erect monuments to your own rebellion. He WILL glorify Himself in your person. I truly pray it is by your repentance.
[/quote]
I understand you perfectly, I just fundamentally disagree with you.
You believe god loves and hates people, saves and damns people, solely for the purpose of glorifying himself.
Yes or no?
I understand you don’t think you’re deserving of god’s grace. I understand you wish everyone could receive that same grace, and don’t know who will and who won’t. I understand you believe not everyone will receive that same grace, as determined solely by the will of god. I understand you believe the just and the unjust both glorify god.
Yes or no?
If you disagree with anything I’ve paraphrased above, please be specific. If not, please quit claiming that I don’t understand your beliefs.
I’ve read the bible many times, and for many years believed I knew and had a deep personal relationship with god. Just because I’ve since stepped back doesn’t mean I wasn’t 100% sincere at the time. That is why I don’t question your sincerity. I know you really believe what you’re posting in this forum, just as I truly believed.
I don’t know if there is a god or not. But if there is, and if the bible really is the word of god, I believe your theology is fatally misguided.
The god of the new testament loves everyone. He calls all to repentance, and freely offers his grace to all who will accept. He desires all to be saved.
It doesn’t surprise me that you perpetually dodge 2 Peter 3:9:
This scripture strikes a fatal blow at Calvin’s flawed philosophy. God doesn’t want anyone to perish, and desires everyone to come to repentance. He doesn’t choose to save some and damn others, but offers the atonement to all that will freely accept his gift and live. Many won’t accept, and will pay the price for their rebellion. But that is their will, not god’s will. He is the Father, not the Puppetmaster.
It doesn’t surprise me that you have no idea what 2 Peter 3:9 says because you have no idea who the God of the bible is and never have as is plainly manifest in the above statement. God is not willing that any of His elect should perish which is why none will. Your unsystematic isolated proof texting is quite typical.
All sorts of horrific idolatrous God dishonoring conclusions can be drawn when that fallacious method is imposed upon the Word of almighty God. Boy have we seen that in these very forums.
[quote]Makavali wrote:<<< Holy shit you are messed up. Sorry if that offends, but just WOW. At least BC and Cortes attempt to reconcile their beliefs with logic. I may not agree, or see it as being logical, but God damn I know they are trying.
You just seem to turn your nose at reality and wander off into some kind of self concocted fantasy![/quote]Wadda drag.
EDIT: Which is why what BC and Cortes believe will never impact modern society. You are absolutely correct. They (more Chris, but especially Pat) are tripping over themselves to intellectually reconcile with you. The gospel of the glorified Christ demands that YOU reconcile with HIM. Modern religion in it’s insolent quest for relevance has by that very accommodation rendered itself utterly IRRelevant. The absolute unchanging God who is actually there does not condescend to man’s sin and finitude.
EDIT 2: I’ll let capped answer your gravity image. (Rolls eyes). Even He gets that much. Do me proud capped.
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Iiii just woke up dude. Probably wont do you much proud, except to say that I see that your understanding of God is one without rationality - because you put faith in god, not your rational mind. Along the lines of how a meditating Buddhist couldnt rationally explain meditation, because its something one must let go fo the rational mind to experience, maybe?
I dont know if I’ve asked you this before, but, when you imagine God, what do you see?
[quote]Tiribulus wrote:
It doesn’t surprise me that you have no idea what 2 Peter 3:9 says because you have no idea who the God of the bible is and never have as is plainly manifest in the above statement. God is not willing that any of His elect should perish which is why none will. Your unsystematic isolated proof testing is quite typical. All sorts of horrific idolatrous God dishonoring conclusions can be drawn when that fallacious method is imposed upon the Word of almighty God. Boy have we seen that in these very forums.[/quote]
That is a blatant misstatement of the scripture, and you know it as well as I do.
It doesn’t say god doesn’t want his elect not to perish, it says perfectly clearly that god doesn’t want ANYONE to perish, and wants EVERYONE to come to repentance.
