Why I Deserve to be Shot in the Head

Off Topic Politics & World Issues
161

[quote]forlife wrote:

[quote]Tiribulus wrote:
It doesn’t surprise me that you have no idea what 2 Peter 3:9 says because you have no idea who the God of the bible is and never have as is plainly manifest in the above statement. God is not willing that any of His elect should perish which is why none will. Your unsystematic isolated proof testing is quite typical. All sorts of horrific idolatrous God dishonoring conclusions can be drawn when that fallacious method is imposed upon the Word of almighty God. Boy have we seen that in these very forums.[/quote]

That is a blatant misstatement of the scripture, and you know it as well as I do.

It doesn’t say god doesn’t want his elect not to perish, it says perfectly clearly that god doesn’t want ANYONE to perish, and wants EVERYONE to come to repentance.[/quote]There are other, MANY other, more absolute statements that govern and qualify that. Before you go off on one of your pseudo indignant tirades, now listen, ALL scripture is the Word of God and in that sense absolute. However, the addressed subject matter and emphasis is not equally absolute throughout. The transcendent eternal nature of the sovereign God dictates what is meant by statements such as 2 Peter 3:9. Here’s an idea. Why don’t you just maintain that the bible contradicts itself when Jesus clearly states that “None can come to me unless the Father draw Him” and then Peter say God wants everybody saved. Which if true makes the King of kings an abject failure.

Try that. Just tell me the bible contradicts itself. You attempting to do exegesis and exposition is just painful and unnecessary.

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[quote]Tiribulus wrote:
Aw man, you were doin so good too. Mak thinks that my belief system denies things like gravity. Come on, one more chance. Is that true?[/quote]

No, nor is it true that Mak thinks your belief system denies things like gravity. He just thinks its as illogical as denying gravity (I would think).

163

[quote]Tiribulus wrote:

[quote]forlife wrote:

[quote]Tiribulus wrote:
It doesn’t surprise me that you have no idea what 2 Peter 3:9 says because you have no idea who the God of the bible is and never have as is plainly manifest in the above statement. God is not willing that any of His elect should perish which is why none will. Your unsystematic isolated proof testing is quite typical. All sorts of horrific idolatrous God dishonoring conclusions can be drawn when that fallacious method is imposed upon the Word of almighty God. Boy have we seen that in these very forums.[/quote]

That is a blatant misstatement of the scripture, and you know it as well as I do.

It doesn’t say god doesn’t want his elect not to perish, it says perfectly clearly that god doesn’t want ANYONE to perish, and wants EVERYONE to come to repentance.[/quote]There are other, MANY other, more absolute statements that govern and qualify that. Before you go off on one of your pseudo indignant tirades, now listen, ALL scripture is the Word of God and in that sense absolute. However, the addressed subject matter and emphasis is not equally absolute throughout. The transcendent eternal nature of the sovereign God dictates what is meant by statements such as 2 Peter 3:9. Here’s an idea. Why don’t you just maintain that the bible contradicts itself when Jesus clearly states that “None can come to me unless the Father draw Him” and then Peter say God wants everybody saved. Which if true makes the King of kings an abject failure.

Try that. Just tell me the bible contradicts itself. You attempting to do exegesis and exposition is just painful and unnecessary.
[/quote]

Or you could stop cherry picking scripture to support Calvin’s twisted philosophy, and be honest about the fact that 2 Peter 3:9, and a multitude of other scriptures (I’ll gladly provide references if you like) make it abundantly clear that god offers the gift of salvation to all, and wants everyone to repent and accept that gift.

Nobody disputes John 6:44. It’s absolutely true that without the gift of grace, by which the Father draws people to him, nobody could be saved. What you don’t understand is that the Father draws everyone, but not everyone chooses to accept his gift. He offers the gift to all, and calls all to repentance, as is abundantly stated throughout the bible.

The vast majority of Christian churches agree with me on this. Calvin was a twisted dude that wanted to worship a Puppeteer god, and most churches see him as such.

164

Elder forlife has shown me the light with his annointed, formidable scholoarship. Sackcloth and ashes for me tonight.

165

[quote]Tiribulus wrote:
Elder forlife has shown me the light with his annointed, formidable scholoarship. Sackcloth and ashes for me tonight. [/quote]

Typical dodge. Instead of addressing the point, you resort to sarcasm.

166

[quote]forlife wrote:

[quote]Tiribulus wrote:

[quote]forlife wrote:

[quote]Tiribulus wrote:
It doesn’t surprise me that you have no idea what 2 Peter 3:9 says because you have no idea who the God of the bible is and never have as is plainly manifest in the above statement. God is not willing that any of His elect should perish which is why none will. Your unsystematic isolated proof testing is quite typical. All sorts of horrific idolatrous God dishonoring conclusions can be drawn when that fallacious method is imposed upon the Word of almighty God. Boy have we seen that in these very forums.[/quote]

That is a blatant misstatement of the scripture, and you know it as well as I do.

It doesn’t say god doesn’t want his elect not to perish, it says perfectly clearly that god doesn’t want ANYONE to perish, and wants EVERYONE to come to repentance.[/quote]There are other, MANY other, more absolute statements that govern and qualify that. Before you go off on one of your pseudo indignant tirades, now listen, ALL scripture is the Word of God and in that sense absolute. However, the addressed subject matter and emphasis is not equally absolute throughout. The transcendent eternal nature of the sovereign God dictates what is meant by statements such as 2 Peter 3:9. Here’s an idea. Why don’t you just maintain that the bible contradicts itself when Jesus clearly states that “None can come to me unless the Father draw Him” and then Peter say God wants everybody saved. Which if true makes the King of kings an abject failure.

Try that. Just tell me the bible contradicts itself. You attempting to do exegesis and exposition is just painful and unnecessary.
[/quote]

Or you could stop cherry picking scripture to support Calvin’s twisted philosophy, and be honest about the fact that 2 Peter 3:9, and a multitude of other scriptures (I’ll gladly provide references if you like) make it abundantly clear that god offers the gift of salvation to all, and wants everyone to repent and accept that gift.

Nobody disputes John 6:44. It’s absolutely true that without the gift of grace, by which the Father draws people to him, nobody could be saved. What you don’t understand is that the Father draws everyone, but not everyone chooses to accept his gift. He offers the gift to all, and calls all to repentance, as is abundantly stated throughout the bible.

The vast majority of Christian churches agree with me on this. Calvin was a twisted dude that wanted to worship a Puppeteer god, and most churches see him as such.[/quote]

We are talking about the same thing in the other thread but this one seems to be hitting exactly the areas I was taking issue with and must say that I see and read this the exact same way. I am trying, really trying, to see this and understand it in the way you are presenting it, Tirib, but I am not able to square it with my gut.

This has far less to do with my Catholicism, per se, as it does with my sense of right and wrong and what should and should not be. I think I have made it clear over the past couple of days that I am willing to try and let my guard down for a while and to try and understand this, but I am going to have to say that what Pat and Chris and yes, forlife, are saying seems far more likely to me than what you are suggesting.

At first I thought perhaps you were suggesting a paradox, but on further exploration I am no longer even finding as much of that as I am the suggestion that we don’t have ANY control over ANY of this. No choice in the matter. Honestly to me your arguments as I understand them sound like theist determinism, a very complete, wholly uncompromising determinism. And I just can’t see the point in it all, if that is the case. Indeed, hearing such fatalism from the mouth of a Christian is practically outside the realm of my imagination.

Still thinking about this but unfortunately family from the states came today and it’s going to be very hard to get here over the next few days. Either way, I’m not leaving this time. Still interested in exploring this.

167

[quote]Cortes wrote:<<< but I am not able to square it with my gut. >>>[/quote]Neither can I. Thank God my gut (or yours) is not the standard. God is the standard [quote]Cortes wrote:This has far less to do with my Catholicism, per se, as it does with my sense of right and wrong and what should and should not be. >>>[/quote]This right here is a strobing neon illustration of exactly one of the main points I’ve been making about Catholicism forever. You just declared your divorce of what you are calling your conviction of a supposedly infinite, holy and powerful God from “my sense of right and wrong and what should and should not be.” Don’t you see that? There is your catholicism AND “my sense of right and wrong and what should and should not be”.

For me it is unthinkable that those could ever be compartmentalized like that. My sense of right and wrong and what should and should not be is… IS my relationship with the living Word of God in my heart testifying to the written word in my hands. [quote]Cortes wrote: <<< but I am going to have to say that what Pat and Chris and yes, forlife, are saying seems far more likely to me than what you are suggesting. >>>[/quote]Here again. Two Catholics and an open Christ denying practicing homosexual in the same sentence as spiritual, intellectual and moral allies for you? This is what the God you believe in has for you? Think with me man. Friendship with the world is enmity with God. [quote]4-You adulterous people Do you not know that friendship with the world is enmity with God? Therefore whoever wishes to be a friend of the world makes himself an enemy of God. [/quote]James 4:4 You don’t think that sharing the foundational governing world view of flaming pagans is spiritual adultery? [quote]Cortes wrote: At first I thought perhaps you were suggesting a paradox, >>>[/quote]Of course it’s a paradox. We are in this conversation, or at least I am, talking about the ultimate supremacy of God almighty. I wasn’t around in eternity when the Word clearly states I WAS CHOSEN BY HIM. How do you respond to my post in the other thread with the long quote from the book of Ephesians? [quote]Cortes wrote:<<< but on further exploration I am no longer even finding as much of that as I am the suggestion that we don’t have ANY control over ANY of this. No choice in the matter. Honestly to me your arguments as I understand them sound like theist determinism, a very complete, wholly uncompromising determinism. And I just can’t see the point in it all, if that is the case. Indeed, hearing such fatalism from the mouth of a Christian is practically outside the realm of my imagination. [/quote]Fatalism is the diametric opposite of the Christian doctrine of divine providence. What will be will be is a declaration of blind fate. Divine providence is the intelligent ordering of all that is by a blessed holy God to the praise of his awesome glory. Remember the declaration of independence? “with a firm reliance on divine providence?.” I don’t have all the answers and never will. This I absolutely DO know. Any view of the human will that credits to it the ability to thwart the ultimate will of God is an affront to His majesty and power. Any person He ultimately desires to save who winds up in hell is mightier than God. NO WAY!!![quote]Cortes wrote: Still thinking about this but unfortunately family from the states came today and it’s going to be very hard to get here over the next few days. Either way, I’m not leaving this time. Still interested in exploring this.
[/quote]fair enough.

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[quote]Tiribulus wrote:
Aw man, you were doin so good too. Mak thinks that my belief system denies things like gravity. Come on, one more chance. Is that true?[/quote]

Aw shucks Tirib, you should know by now the images are simply to amuse, not to make a point. But if it makes you feel better to dodge the point and latch onto something irrelevant, then go for it little guy.

169

[quote]Tiribulus wrote:
They (more Chris, but especially Pat) are tripping over themselves to intellectually reconcile with you.[/quote]

Reconcile with me?!

LOL

Oh you are on fire today! Someone get this man a mic!

170

[quote]CappedAndPlanIt wrote:

[quote]Tiribulus wrote:
Aw man, you were doin so good too. Mak thinks that my belief system denies things like gravity. Come on, one more chance. Is that true?[/quote]

No, nor is it true that Mak thinks your belief system denies things like gravity. He just thinks its as illogical as denying gravity (I would think).

[/quote]

Exactly this.

171

[quote]Dear fellow-unbelievers,

Nothing would have kept me from joining you except the loss of my voice (at least my speaking voice) which in turn is due to a long argument I am currently having with the specter of death. Nobody ever wins this argument, though there are some solid points to be made while the discussion goes on. I have found, as the enemy becomes more familiar, that all the special pleading for salvation, redemption and supernatural deliverance appears even more hollow and artificial to me than it did before. I hope to help defend and pass on the lessons of this for many years to come, but for now I have found my trust better placed in two things: the skill and principle of advanced medical science, and the comradeship of innumerable friends and family, all of them immune to the false consolations of religion. It is these forces among others which will speed the day when humanity emancipates itself from the mind-forged manacles of servility and superstitition. It is our innate solidarity, and not some despotism of the sky, which is the source of our morality and our sense of decency.

That essential sense of decency is outraged every day. Our theocratic enemy is in plain view. Protean in form, it extends from the overt menace of nuclear-armed mullahs to the insidious campaigns to have stultifying pseudo-science taught in American schools. But in the past few years, there have been heartening signs of a genuine and spontaneous resistance to this sinister nonsense: a resistance which repudiates the right of bullies and tyrants to make the absurd claim that they have god on their side. To have had a small part in this resistance has been the greatest honor of my lifetime: the pattern and original of all dictatorship is the surrender of reason to absolutism and the abandonment of critical, objective inquiry. The cheap name for this lethal delusion is religion, and we must learn new ways of combating it in the public sphere, just as we have learned to free ourselves of it in private.

Our weapons are the ironic mind against the literal: the open mind against the credulous; the courageous pursuit of truth against the fearful and abject forces who would set limits to investigation (and who stupidly claim that we already have all the truth we need). Perhaps above all, we affirm life over the cults of death and human sacrifice and are afraid, not of inevitable death, but rather of a human life that is cramped and distorted by the pathetic need to offer mindless adulation, or the dismal belief that the laws of nature respond to wailings and incantations.

As the heirs of a secular revolution, American atheists have a special responsibility to defend and uphold the Constitution that patrols the boundary between Church and State. This, too, is an honor and a privilege. Believe me when I say that I am present with you, even if not corporeally (and only metaphorically in spirit…) Resolve to build up Mr Jefferson’s wall of separation. And don’t keep the faith.

Sincerely,

Christopher Hitchens[/quote]

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Dear Makavali,
I will continue to pray that your God, the one who’s providence was invoked at my nation’s founding by Jefferson, mercifully raise you from death to life so that you may know Him like I do. As the exalted triumphant sovereign of all that is who is also my Father, brother and bridegroom. All praise, glory and honor be to Him alone.

Love in hope of one day embracing you as family,
Tiribulus

173

[quote]Tiribulus wrote:
Dear Makavali,
I will continue to pray that your God, the one who’s providence was invoked at my nation’s founding by Jefferson, mercifully raise you from death to life so that you may know Him like I do. As the exalted triumphant sovereign of all that is who is also my Father, brother and bridegroom. All praise, glory and honor be to Him alone.

Love in hope of one day embracing you as family,
Tiribulus[/quote]

  1. I have no God.
  2. You are human, I am human. We are already family.
174

[quote]Makavali wrote:

[quote]Dear fellow-unbelievers,

Nothing would have kept me from joining you except the loss of my voice (at least my speaking voice) which in turn is due to a long argument I am currently having with the specter of death. Nobody ever wins this argument, though there are some solid points to be made while the discussion goes on. I have found, as the enemy becomes more familiar, that all the special pleading for salvation, redemption and supernatural deliverance appears even more hollow and artificial to me than it did before. I hope to help defend and pass on the lessons of this for many years to come, but for now I have found my trust better placed in two things: the skill and principle of advanced medical science, and the comradeship of innumerable friends and family, all of them immune to the false consolations of religion. It is these forces among others which will speed the day when humanity emancipates itself from the mind-forged manacles of servility and superstitition. It is our innate solidarity, and not some despotism of the sky, which is the source of our morality and our sense of decency.

That essential sense of decency is outraged every day. Our theocratic enemy is in plain view. Protean in form, it extends from the overt menace of nuclear-armed mullahs to the insidious campaigns to have stultifying pseudo-science taught in American schools. But in the past few years, there have been heartening signs of a genuine and spontaneous resistance to this sinister nonsense: a resistance which repudiates the right of bullies and tyrants to make the absurd claim that they have god on their side. To have had a small part in this resistance has been the greatest honor of my lifetime: the pattern and original of all dictatorship is the surrender of reason to absolutism and the abandonment of critical, objective inquiry. The cheap name for this lethal delusion is religion, and we must learn new ways of combating it in the public sphere, just as we have learned to free ourselves of it in private.

Our weapons are the ironic mind against the literal: the open mind against the credulous; the courageous pursuit of truth against the fearful and abject forces who would set limits to investigation (and who stupidly claim that we already have all the truth we need). Perhaps above all, we affirm life over the cults of death and human sacrifice and are afraid, not of inevitable death, but rather of a human life that is cramped and distorted by the pathetic need to offer mindless adulation, or the dismal belief that the laws of nature respond to wailings and incantations.

As the heirs of a secular revolution, American atheists have a special responsibility to defend and uphold the Constitution that patrols the boundary between Church and State. This, too, is an honor and a privilege. Believe me when I say that I am present with you, even if not corporeally (and only metaphorically in spirit…) Resolve to build up Mr Jefferson’s wall of separation. And don’t keep the faith.

Sincerely,

Christopher Hitchens[/quote][/quote]

Pat, where’s your link to that study about religion being human nature? Mr. Hitchens–despite his bold words–believing that while he may be moving on to non-existence shortly, he knows religion isn’t going anywhere.

175

[quote]Makavali wrote:<<< 1. I have no God. >>>[/quote]He has you

[quote]Makavali wrote:2. You are human, I am human. We are already family.[/quote]Touche. There is a very real sense in which that is true.

176

[quote]Sloth wrote:<<< Pat, where’s your link to that study about religion being human nature? Mr. Hitchens–despite his bold words–believing that while he may be moving on to non-existence shortly, he knows religion isn’t going anywhere.[/quote]Mr. Hitchens was interviewed on the radio show of a local Baptist pastor here a while back named Paul Edwards. Despite Edwards total civility and cordiality Hitchens was angry, obnoxious and rude with frequent bleepings by the broadcast crew.

Edwards did challenge him, but always in a friendly matter of fact manner. The interview ended when Hitchens let go a blue streak bleeep, bleeep, bleeep (maybe he’s a secret Catholic =] ) and hung up.

Model citizen. I wish I had recorded it.

178

[quote]Tiribulus wrote:

[quote]Cortes wrote:<<< but I am not able to square it with my gut. >>>[/quote]Neither can I. Thank God my gut (or yours) is not the standard. God is the standard [quote]Cortes wrote:This has far less to do with my Catholicism, per se, as it does with my sense of right and wrong and what should and should not be. >>>[/quote]This right here is a strobing neon illustration of exactly one of the main points I’ve been making about Catholicism forever. You just declared your divorce of what you are calling your conviction of a supposedly infinite, holy and powerful God from “my sense of right and wrong and what should and should not be.” Don’t you see that? There is your catholicism AND “my sense of right and wrong and what should and should not be”.

For me it is unthinkable that those could ever be compartmentalized like that. My sense of right and wrong and what should and should not be is… IS my relationship with the living Word of God in my heart testifying to the written word in my hands. [quote]Cortes wrote: <<< but I am going to have to say that what Pat and Chris and yes, forlife, are saying seems far more likely to me than what you are suggesting. >>>[/quote]Here again. Two Catholics and an open Christ denying practicing homosexual in the same sentence as spiritual, intellectual and moral allies for you? This is what the God you believe in has for you? Think with me man. Friendship with the world is enmity with God. [quote]4-You adulterous people Do you not know that friendship with the world is enmity with God? Therefore whoever wishes to be a friend of the world makes himself an enemy of God. [/quote]James 4:4 You don’t think that sharing the foundational governing world view of flaming pagans is spiritual adultery? [quote]Cortes wrote: At first I thought perhaps you were suggesting a paradox, >>>[/quote]Of course it’s a paradox. We are in this conversation, or at least I am, talking about the ultimate supremacy of God almighty. I wasn’t around in eternity when the Word clearly states I WAS CHOSEN BY HIM. How do you respond to my post in the other thread with the long quote from the book of Ephesians? [quote]Cortes wrote:<<< but on further exploration I am no longer even finding as much of that as I am the suggestion that we don’t have ANY control over ANY of this. No choice in the matter. Honestly to me your arguments as I understand them sound like theist determinism, a very complete, wholly uncompromising determinism. And I just can’t see the point in it all, if that is the case. Indeed, hearing such fatalism from the mouth of a Christian is practically outside the realm of my imagination. [/quote]Fatalism is the diametric opposite of the Christian doctrine of divine providence. What will be will be is a declaration of blind fate. Divine providence is the intelligent ordering of all that is by a blessed holy God to the praise of his awesome glory. Remember the declaration of independence? “with a firm reliance on divine providence?.” I don’t have all the answers and never will. This I absolutely DO know. Any view of the human will that credits to it the ability to thwart the ultimate will of God is an affront to His majesty and power. Any person He ultimately desires to save who winds up in hell is mightier than God. NO WAY!!![quote]Cortes wrote: Still thinking about this but unfortunately family from the states came today and it’s going to be very hard to get here over the next few days. Either way, I’m not leaving this time. Still interested in exploring this.
[/quote]fair enough.
[/quote]

He has more than 2 Catholics and a homosexual agreeing with him. The vast majority of sincere Christians agree with him as well. Your Calvanistic cult is the exception, and claiming Calvin’s Puppeteer god as the “honest to goodness , fair dinkum real thing” doesn’t make it so.

I was actually thinking about you this morning, on my drive to the gym. The news had just reported 2 Muslim suicide bombings in Pakistan, and I thought about how those 2 Muslims were 100% convinced that Allah would reward them for their act against the heathens. They KNEW that Allah would bless them, just like you KNOW that Calvin’s god will bless you, to the point they were willing to sacrifice their own lives, and the lives of others, for that knowledge. Their thought process is identical to yours.

This is what I find so frightening about believers who ridicule logic, disparage objective evidence, and even mock one’s sense of right and wrong (as you just did with Cortes), because they REFUSE to admit that their god may not be real. Everything hinges on that belief being true, and they are so convinced it is true, literally anything can be justified in the name of that belief, no matter how starkly it violates reason and morality. After all if god (whether it be Calvin’s god, or Allah, or any other god) wills it, who are we, worms that we are, to question it?

179

[quote]Chushin wrote:

[quote]Tiribulus wrote:

[quote]Sloth wrote:<<< Pat, where’s your link to that study about religion being human nature? Mr. Hitchens–despite his bold words–believing that while he may be moving on to non-existence shortly, he knows religion isn’t going anywhere.[/quote]Mr. Hitchens was interviewed on the radio show of a local Baptist pastor here a while back named Paul Edwards. Despite Edwards total civility and cordiality Hitchens was angry, obnoxious and rude with frequent bleepings by the broadcast crew.

Edwards did challenge him, but always in a friendly matter of fact manner. The interview ended when Hitchens let go a blue streak bleeep, bleeep, bleeep (maybe he’s a secret Catholic =] ) and hung up.

Model citizen. I wish I had recorded it.
[/quote]

Good segue for something I’ve kind of said before, but would like to mention again.

Frankly, the stuff Tirib says about his religion is nothing but incoherent babbling to me. I wasn’t raised particulary religiously, most of it seems like nonsense, and I’m pretty much an agnostic.

And yet, what I see in Tirib is a wonderful, compassionate, loving man who is, at least from his side, at peace with everyone, including those who denigrate and try to provoke him, and those whom he describes as "sinners and “pagans.”

Frankly, I would love to be this man’s friend IRL. He just has a really, really good heart.

So I don’t know. If believing all that stuff makes people turn out like Tirib, I say go for it.

It’s not for me, but clearly it IS for some.[/quote]

I agree with this, to some extent. I think religion does encourage many people to love one another, and that’s a good thing.

As I said in my last post though, when people willingly surrender reason and even their intrinsic sense of right and wrong, in the name of uncompromising, absolute belief, it can lead to decisions and actions that negatively affect others, however sincerely motivated. Whether it’s legislation against gays, or teaching creationism in the classroom, or more extreme actions like suicide bombings, faith is a dangerous force, in the absence of logic and common sense.

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[quote]forlife wrote:<<< Everything hinges on that belief being true >>>[/quote]This is the only thing you said that actually has any real relevance here. What is your belief upon which all else hinges? Everybody has one.