Why I Deserve to be Shot in the Head

Off Topic Politics & World Issues
121

[quote]Tiribulus wrote:

[/quote]

Wow. Are you part elephant, Tirib?

I thought I got away with that one. Well, in a way, I am actually here now, responding to that question of yours. As you can see, the subject matter is exactly the same, Free Will, and it is an interest of mine that was catalyzed by the original conversation we were involved in, most directly by your asking me where Free Will originates (or what it is, can’t perfectly remember, but thereabouts). I honestly did mean to respond, but I soon realized that I am not yet far enough along in my studies to be able to honestly say that I am capable of providing an adequate answer. That’s part of the reason I’m here again, because I’m trying to understand the seeming paradox presented by the idea.

Was that a long winded and convoluted enough excuse for you? :wink:

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[quote]Tiribulus wrote:

[quote]forlife wrote:<<< I doubt you will reevaluate your belief based on anything I might say, >>>[/quote]This is THE one thing you got right.

He defines what love is and praise be to His glorious name has He ever!!![/quote]

That’s it?

In this thread, you outright said your god is selfish. You said he cares ONLY about his own glorification, and that EVERYTHING exists to serve that purpose, and none other.

Are you retracting?

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[quote]forlife wrote:

[quote]Tiribulus wrote:

[quote]forlife wrote:<<< I doubt you will reevaluate your belief based on anything I might say, >>>[/quote]This is THE one thing you got right.

He defines what love is and praise be to His glorious name has He ever!!![/quote]

That’s it?

In this thread, you outright said your god is selfish. You said he cares ONLY about his own glorification, and that EVERYTHING exists to serve that purpose, and none other.

Are you retracting?[/quote]

Stop me if I’m wrong, Tirib, but -

I think Tirib’s saying that Gods selfishness is good, God caring only about His own glorification is good, and everything existing to serve that purpose is good as well. All because God says so.

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[quote]CappedAndPlanIt wrote:

[quote]forlife wrote:

[quote]Tiribulus wrote:

[quote]forlife wrote:<<< I doubt you will reevaluate your belief based on anything I might say, >>>[/quote]This is THE one thing you got right.

He defines what love is and praise be to His glorious name has He ever!!![/quote]

That’s it?

In this thread, you outright said your god is selfish. You said he cares ONLY about his own glorification, and that EVERYTHING exists to serve that purpose, and none other.

Are you retracting?[/quote]

Stop me if I’m wrong, Tirib, but -

I think Tirib’s saying that Gods selfishness is good, God caring only about His own glorification is good, and everything existing to serve that purpose is good as well. All because God says so.

[/quote]

That’s exactly what he’s saying. His god is a self-centered, self-glorifying narcissist who defines goodness as that which furthers his glory, and cares nothing about any other purpose.

Like I said, it sounds a lot like Satan, and fits the classic profile psychologists would consider to be mentally ill. It’s about utter selfishness, which is the polar opposite of love.

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[quote]Cortes wrote:

[quote]Tiribulus wrote:

[/quote]Wow. Are you part elephant, Tirib?

I thought I got away with that one. Well, in a way, I am actually here now, responding to that question of yours. As you can see, the subject matter is exactly the same, Free Will, and it is an interest of mine that was catalyzed by the original conversation we were involved in, most directly by your asking me where Free Will originates (or what it is, can’t perfectly remember, but thereabouts). I honestly did mean to respond, but I soon realized that I am not yet far enough along in my studies to be able to honestly say that I am capable of providing an adequate answer. That’s part of the reason I’m here again, because I’m trying to understand the seeming paradox presented by the idea.

Was that a long winded and convoluted enough excuse for you? ;)[/quote]You said to somebody "assuming everyone has freewill… " to which I responded by asking “from whence arises this very ubiquitous assumption”? You also asked me a great question which was “do I live my life like it was predestined?”. I answered that I wouldn’t know exactly how to do that one way or another, but that I simply seek to love Him more each day and my wife as He loves me.

This may sound goofy, but people are very important to me and that includes you. I do not forget that behind the words on this screen are real live fellow creatures of God who I must love while I don’t even know what they look like. (that goes for these heckling God denying haters too, maybe especially them) I remember that conversation and you and your family have been in my prayers ever since.

This is not an intellectual game to me. I think I believe it’s not to you either. I am far from knowing everything, but I have been through this, that at first appears an impenetrable jungle many many times my friend. There is sweet sweet peace and satisfaction on the other side. This God is awesome beyond anything we could ever hope to comprehend and He loves to spend time with His children. Words fail utterly from the first syllable.

I am extremely busy today, but this one is long coming. Hopefully later some more. I saw your thread too.

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[quote]CappedAndPlanIt wrote:<<< Stop me if I’m wrong, Tirib, but -

I think Tirib’s saying that Gods selfishness is good, God caring only about His own glorification is good, and everything existing to serve that purpose is good as well. All because God says so. >>>[/quote]Not bad dude. It’s not just good. It’s ultimately, eternally, universally and comprehensively magnificent. He alone is worthy of such glory, honor and praise. Oh how king David understood this. Read through the psalms. That’s why I keep saying that “He can do it and we can’t”.

127

[quote]forlife wrote:

[quote]CappedAndPlanIt wrote:

[quote]forlife wrote:

[quote]Tiribulus wrote:

[quote]forlife wrote:<<< I doubt you will reevaluate your belief based on anything I might say, >>>[/quote]This is THE one thing you got right.

He defines what love is and praise be to His glorious name has He ever!!![/quote]

That’s it?

In this thread, you outright said your god is selfish. You said he cares ONLY about his own glorification, and that EVERYTHING exists to serve that purpose, and none other.

Are you retracting?[/quote]

Stop me if I’m wrong, Tirib, but -

I think Tirib’s saying that Gods selfishness is good, God caring only about His own glorification is good, and everything existing to serve that purpose is good as well. All because God says so.

[/quote]

That’s exactly what he’s saying. His god is a self-centered, self-glorifying narcissist who defines goodness as that which furthers his glory, and cares nothing about any other purpose.

Like I said, it sounds a lot like Satan, and fits the classic profile psychologists would consider to be mentally ill. It’s about utter selfishness, which is the polar opposite of love.[/quote]

I don’t know about that. I mean, for example, maybe you start a small farm in your backyard, just because you can. Maybe you’ll trim some of the plants, maybe you’ll eat some of them. If that garden is about you, then which ones you choose to water, or let die, or trim, or eat, is up to you, and its “good” because you say so. Do you ask the soil if it wants to be displaced, or the plants if they want to be trimmed or eaten, or the bugs you kill if they want to live?

Perhaps his idea is that we’re like the plants and God is the farmer, maybe?

128

[quote]CappedAndPlanIt wrote:<<< I don’t know about that. I mean, for example, maybe you start a small farm in your backyard, just because you can. Maybe you’ll trim some of the plants, maybe you’ll eat some of them. If that garden is about you, then which ones you choose to water, or let die, or trim, or eat, is up to you, and its “good” because you say so. Do you ask the soil if it wants to be displaced, or the plants if they want to be trimmed or eaten, or the bugs you kill if they want to live?

Perhaps his idea is that we’re like the plants and God is the farmer, maybe?[/quote]Now you’re scarin me. That is a very imperfect, but legitimate analogy. Paul uses a potter and clay “does not the potter have the right over the clay to make from THE SAME LUMP one vessel for honorable use and another vessel for common use?” (Romans 9) God is the ultimate potter. Think about if what I’m saying is true and He adopts men (and women) into His very family so they can participate in His life with them. Think further if you will that these people are rebellious criminals that fully deserve to die at His hands.

What if you killed someone’s child and the father came into the courtroom and said to the judge. “Not only do I not want this vicious murderer to pay for his crime, but I will pay for it in his place. When you let him out he is to go live in my house with my family. My life savings are his. We will see to that he does not repeat such a thing”. What if the father WAS THE JUDGE? Is that loving?

What if another man killed this father’s other child and he attended the execution offering to throw the switch himself? Is he unjust?

Is he wrong in either case? More imperfect, but legitimate analogies.

129

[quote]Tiribulus wrote:

[quote]CappedAndPlanIt wrote:<<< I don’t know about that. I mean, for example, maybe you start a small farm in your backyard, just because you can. Maybe you’ll trim some of the plants, maybe you’ll eat some of them. If that garden is about you, then which ones you choose to water, or let die, or trim, or eat, is up to you, and its “good” because you say so. Do you ask the soil if it wants to be displaced, or the plants if they want to be trimmed or eaten, or the bugs you kill if they want to live?

Perhaps his idea is that we’re like the plants and God is the farmer, maybe?[/quote]Now you’re scarin me. That is a very imperfect, but legitimate analogy. Paul uses a potter and clay “does not the potter have the right over the clay to make from THE SAME LUMP one vessel for honorable use and another vessel for common use?” (Romans 9) God is the ultimate potter. Think about if what I’m saying is true and He adopts men (and women) into His very family so they can participate in His life with them. Think further if you will that these people are rebellious criminals that fully deserve to die at His hands.

What if you killed someone’s child and the father came into the courtroom and said to the judge. “Not only do I not want this vicious murderer to pay for his crime, but I will pay for it in his place. When you let him out he is to go live in my house with my family. My life savings are his. We will see to that he does not repeat such a thing”. What if the father WAS THE JUDGE? Is that loving?

What if another man killed this father’s other child and he attended the execution offering to throw the switch himself? Is he unjust?

Is he wrong in either case? More imperfect, but legitimate analogies.
[/quote]

It’s loving according to most Christian theologies, but not according to yours.

Why?

Because you’ve said your god is selfish, and cares ONLY about his own aggrandizement. Furthermore, you’ve said that your god creates people to suffer forever, or to worship him forever, for no reason other than to glorify himself.

That isn’t love.

Capped, your analogy is a good one. If we’re all just objects, with no inherent value other than to feed the gardner that planted us, and no say over our own fate, then the god Tiribulus worships makes sense. I wouldn’t call him loving, and I wouldn’t pretend that people have free will, only to deny it in the next sentence like Tiribulus does. Nor would I consider such a god remotely consistent with the god of the new testament…maybe a little better fit with the old testament god.

130

[quote]forlife wrote:
Chris, in all sincerity I encourage you to look up Historicity of Jesus on Wiki, read the page, and go to some of the source materials. You seem sincere in your pursuit of truth, and you spend a lot of time thinking about it, especially for a 21 year old. You said earlier that you believe the Gospels are some of the best historical documents, etc. and I really think you would be surprised by what you learn, if you are willing to travel that path.[/quote]

I have a bookshelf 3.5 feet long filled with nothing but items trying to prove my religion wrong…I’m afraid if I buy anymore before I get more shelves this one will break. :wink:

[quote]
I didn’t realize you had struggled with skepticism in the past, and felt fatalistic as a result. I think sometimes this is the result of black and white thinking, where people with a religious background are programmed to believe that any questioning of what they have been taught must result in ultimate bitterness, depression, and lack of purpose and meaning. I used to fear this myself, as a believer.[/quote]

I didn’t struggle with skepticism, I was a skeptic. As in, I believed there was no proof of G-d.

Okay, what do you think about the fact that I don’t have a religious background except for the past few years?

[quote]
On the other side of the tunnel of sincere skepticism, all I can tell you is that this hasn’t happened to me. I still see beauty, love, purpose, and meaning in the world. I believe that my motivations are more pure, my commitment to love others is more sincere, and my desire to make the most of every single day and celebrate the people in my life, far surpasses what I experienced as a believer.

Don’t be frightened of skepticism. Maybe you’re not ready to ask the hard questions at this point in your life, and maybe you never will be. But if nothing else, at least realize that those of us who have can still find happiness, peace, and purpose in life. [/quote]

Lol. You confuse skepticism with asking questions. Jesus when he was 12 asked many questions in the temple to the Rabbis, I do the same. I doubt anyone would consider either one of us skeptics. I’d say 90% of what comes out of my mouth is in the form of a question.

I am a skeptic in some places though: exorcism, miracles, &c. Not that I do not believe they happen, I do. I just don’t start worshiping my toast because it burnt strange.

131

[quote]Brother Chris wrote:<<< I am a skeptic in some places though: exorcism, miracles, &c. Not that I do not believe they happen, I do. I just don’t start worshiping my toast because it burnt strange. [/quote]We agree here Chris. I believe in miracles and demons, but nobody is more skeptical than I am of individual reports. These high profile TV “ministries” for instance are an absolute affront to the true power of the Holy Spirit.

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[quote]forlife wrote:

Capped, your analogy is a good one. If we’re all just objects, with no inherent value other than to feed the gardner that planted us, and no say over our own fate, then the god Tiribulus worships makes sense. I wouldn’t call him loving, and I wouldn’t pretend that people have free will, only to deny it in the next sentence like Tiribulus does. Nor would I consider such a god remotely consistent with the god of the new testament…maybe a little better fit with the old testament god.[/quote]

Thanks man. I think I’m seeing Tirib’s point of view more clearly now. You mention inherent value - I don’t know that I believe in inherent or intrinsic value. I mean, things have value, but only inasmuch as they relate to other things.

If Tiribs God is true, He would be the only thing that could possibly have inherent value, because He would be the only thing that could exist without a relationship to anything else (and would be responsible for all other relationships).

Right, Tirib?

133

[quote]CappedAndPlanIt wrote:<<< Thanks man. I think I’m seeing Tirib’s point of view more clearly now. You mention inherent value - I don’t know that I believe in inherent or intrinsic value. I mean, things have value, but only inasmuch as they relate to other things.

If Tiribs God is true, He would be the only thing that could possibly have inherent value, because He would be the only thing that could exist without a relationship to anything else (and would be responsible for all other relationships).

Right, Tirib?[/quote]Keep goin.

134

God without his creation is nothing.

Why else are we commanded to worship him?

edit: nevermind T.

135

[quote]Tiribulus wrote:

[quote]CappedAndPlanIt wrote:<<< Thanks man. I think I’m seeing Tirib’s point of view more clearly now. You mention inherent value - I don’t know that I believe in inherent or intrinsic value. I mean, things have value, but only inasmuch as they relate to other things.

If Tiribs God is true, He would be the only thing that could possibly have inherent value, because He would be the only thing that could exist without a relationship to anything else (and would be responsible for all other relationships).

Right, Tirib?[/quote]Keep goin.
[/quote]

Not really sure what else to add.

136

Chris, it seemed from your earlier post that you didn’t feel comfortable with the fatalism that resulted from your skepticism. I can understand that. My sense was that you stepped away from fatalism, not because you decided it couldn’t be true, but because you didn’t like the implications.

My point was that skepticism doesn’t have to result in fatalism. There can still be beauty, joy, and love in life without needing to believe in a supernatural being, perhaps even more genuinely and more abundantly.

137

[quote]CappedAndPlanIt wrote:

[quote]forlife wrote:

Capped, your analogy is a good one. If we’re all just objects, with no inherent value other than to feed the gardner that planted us, and no say over our own fate, then the god Tiribulus worships makes sense. I wouldn’t call him loving, and I wouldn’t pretend that people have free will, only to deny it in the next sentence like Tiribulus does. Nor would I consider such a god remotely consistent with the god of the new testament…maybe a little better fit with the old testament god.[/quote]

Thanks man. I think I’m seeing Tirib’s point of view more clearly now. You mention inherent value - I don’t know that I believe in inherent or intrinsic value. I mean, things have value, but only inasmuch as they relate to other things.

If Tiribs God is true, He would be the only thing that could possibly have inherent value, because He would be the only thing that could exist without a relationship to anything else (and would be responsible for all other relationships).

Right, Tirib?[/quote]

I think you’re spot on, and that is what I find so repulsive about Calvin’s philosophy. It denigrates humanity to the point of treating people like wooden puppets, rather than fellow human beings worthy of love and respect. Why would you love people under that philosophy, outside the belief that your puppetmaster god pulls your strings, causing you to go through the motions of loving other people, despite seeing them as trash? It’s not because you actually care about or value them: it’s solely for the purpose of feeding the ego of your puppetmaster.

The Renaissance recognized that people have inherent worth. It was a dramatic shift from the dark ages, where priests rationalized all kinds of atrocities because they saw people as filth and claimed they were furthering the glory of their god. It’s a disgusting philosophy that has caused a lot of pain and suffering.

I believe people have inherent worth. I believe there is beauty in the world. I believe love is the purpose and reward of life. After leaving religion behind, I questioned all of these values, and was pleasantly surprised to find that not only did they not depend on the belief in a supernatural being, but they were more genuine and even more important to me as an agnostic than as a believer.

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[quote]CappedAndPlanIt wrote:

[quote]Tiribulus wrote:

[quote]CappedAndPlanIt wrote:<<< Thanks man. I think I’m seeing Tirib’s point of view more clearly now. You mention inherent value - I don’t know that I believe in inherent or intrinsic value. I mean, things have value, but only inasmuch as they relate to other things.

If Tiribs God is true, He would be the only thing that could possibly have inherent value, because He would be the only thing that could exist without a relationship to anything else (and would be responsible for all other relationships).

Right, Tirib?[/quote]Keep goin.
[/quote]Not really sure what else to add.[/quote]Things, ALL things, are on every level and in every way, actual AND possible, exactly as God defines them. We live in the truth in precise proportion to our conformity to His definitions. In our lost state without Christ not even the simplest of propositions is held in actual truth. To you 2+2=4 because that’s just the way it is. To me 2+2=4 because mathematical certainty is an accessible finite reflection of the God whose perfectly ordered mind decreed it so. Whether you like it or not (I suspect not) your conclusion of 4 from 2+2 is only true to you because you are a creature of God made by Him in His image. You deny that in exactly the manner Paul tells me (and you) in Romans 1 that the as yet unredeemed are supposed to.

This is why I hold an evidentialist apologetic to be wholly inadequate at best. We don’t even view 1st grade math the same. How am I supposed to argue all the rest of this philosophical and empirical data with you (which I don’t mind tellin ya I actually could do). You CANNOT see it in truth from your side of the spiritual grave. I don’t say that to be a self righteous religious ass. Truly I don’t, but it happens to be case as I myself am living proof of. The difference between you and I is Jesus. It has nothing to do with our intelligence or goodness and thanks be to Him that it doesn’t.

[quote]ephrem wrote:

[quote]Tiribulus wrote:

[quote]ephrem wrote:What is a display of free will?[/quote] In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.
[/quote]What is a god without his creation?[/quote]Perfect in every way, lacking nothing in the internal relations of Father, Son and Holy spirit. Why then did He create? To display all that He is before an intelligent audience for His own glory. Why would an infinite, perfect, being who lacks nothing need to do this? He didn’t. Why would He want to? No idea. I’m just glad that He did because not only do I get to willingly and joyfully participate, but I get to tell you how to also willingly and joyfully participate. A most awesome privilege. You’re unwillingly participating now, but that doesn’t have to be.

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[quote]forlife wrote:<<< I believe people have inherent worth. I believe there is beauty in the world. I believe love is the purpose and reward of life. >>>[/quote]And you have absolutely no basis for doing so. None, nada zilch, zeeroh. I believe you have value because God values you. I care about your future because He cared about mine. You are beyond clueless elder forlife. Repent, believe the one true gospel and live.

140

[quote]Tiribulus wrote:

[quote]forlife wrote:<<< I believe people have inherent worth. I believe there is beauty in the world. I believe love is the purpose and reward of life. >>>[/quote]And you have absolutely no basis for doing so. None, nada zilch, zeeroh. I believe you have value because God values you. I care about your future because He cared about mine. You are beyond clueless elder forlife. Repent, believe the one true gospel and live.
[/quote]

Yeah, forlife, I have to agree with this. I seem to recall a few of us challenging you on that statement a while back and your final justification as to the inherent value of “love” ended up being pretty circular and extremely subjective.

You are a highly intelligent guy, and I’ve watched you argue your way out of some pretty tightly wrapped bindings, but that one up there, Houdini couldn’t twist and wriggle his way out of that.