[quote]Tiribulus wrote:
[/quote]
You don’t get my irony do you?
[quote]Tiribulus wrote:
[quote]TheBigV wrote:Time to be as evil as possible until right before I die… then ask for forgiveness. Thanks God!
[/quote]Can’t plan it aheada time bub. That would be letting sin abound so that grace may much more abound which the apostle Paul denounces in the book of Romans. “God fobid!!” says he.
[/quote]
Yes he can. And, if he does, it just furthers Gods glory. And if he doesn’t, it just furthers Gods glory. Right?
[quote]Brother Chris wrote:
[quote]Big Banana wrote:
God wants you to have faith, not proof.[/quote]
Who taught you vocabulary? And, Jesus is a real person with real evidence. You can always have a ‘doubt’ that the evidence isn’t true, but that’s called be a skeptic or more correctly a cynic.[/quote]
Don’t even go down that route…
[quote]CappedAndPlanIt wrote:
[quote]Tiribulus wrote:
[quote]TheBigV wrote:Time to be as evil as possible until right before I die… then ask for forgiveness. Thanks God![/quote]Can’t plan it aheada time bub. That would be letting sin abound so that grace may much more abound which the apostle Paul denounces in the book of Romans. “God fobid!!” says he.
[/quote]Yes he can. And, if he does, it just furthers Gods glory. And if he doesn’t, it just furthers Gods glory. Right?[/quote]He can try it and no matter what he does the invincible God WILL glorify himself thereby. However no man mocks King Jesus by intentionally impugning His grace with flagrant sin and then scornfully demanding a pardon. That man will learn in permanent fashion what a terrifying thing it is to fall into the hands of an angry God. A God who CANNOT violate His own nature and holiness as revealed and proclaimed in His Word.
[quote]Tiribulus wrote:
[quote]CappedAndPlanIt wrote:
[quote]Tiribulus wrote:
[quote]TheBigV wrote:Time to be as evil as possible until right before I die… then ask for forgiveness. Thanks God![/quote]Can’t plan it aheada time bub. That would be letting sin abound so that grace may much more abound which the apostle Paul denounces in the book of Romans. “God fobid!!” says he.
[/quote]Yes he can. And, if he does, it just furthers Gods glory. And if he doesn’t, it just furthers Gods glory. Right?[/quote]He can try it and no matter what he does the invincible God WILL glorify himself thereby. However no man mocks King Jesus by intentionally impugning His grace with flagrant sin and then scornfully demanding a pardon. That man will learn in permanent fashion what a terrifying thing it is to fall into the hands of an angry God. A God who CANNOT violate His own nature and holiness as revealed and proclaimed in His Word.
[/quote]
Nothing happens that does not further the glory of God.
So, if something happens, it furthers the glory of God.
Why would God be angry about something that furthers his own glory?
[quote]Brother Chris wrote:
Religion doesn’t get me through my sleepless nights (actually I pretty much sleep good all the time), not being a skeptic gets me through the night.[/quote]
So that’s why I’m an insomniac! It’s my skepticism keeping me awake.
[quote]Brother Chris wrote:
[quote]MassiveGuns wrote:
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It did? According to who? Still think they will have the same model of the beginnings of the universe in 10,000 years time?
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It is fine tuned? Fine tuned for what exactly? Maximum speed? Efficiency? Those extinct dinosaurs look pretty fine tuned to me too
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Objective morality does not imply the existence of god by any philosopical standards. I wonder why you think it does?
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People have person experiences? REALLY?! ARE YOU SERIOUS?! Dog turds have dog turd experiences. And of course people never lie or are ever mistaken or even misled by those who know how do they?
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See above[/quote]
Let me ask you something, are you a skeptic?[/quote]
If you call needing more than ancient scrawls to believe that some ancient version of penn and teller DIDN’T dupe half the world into thinking the messiah had arrived then I guess you could say I am.
Philosophically speaking, however, I am by no means a skeptic.
[quote]SexMachine wrote:
[quote]Brother Chris wrote:
Religion doesn’t get me through my sleepless nights (actually I pretty much sleep good all the time), not being a skeptic gets me through the night.[/quote]
So that’s why I’m an insomniac! It’s my skepticism keeping me awake.
[/quote]
I’m sorry, I didn’t mean to imply that skepticism makes people sleepless, I said it made me sleepless.
[quote]MassiveGuns wrote:
[quote]Brother Chris wrote:
[quote]MassiveGuns wrote:
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It did? According to who? Still think they will have the same model of the beginnings of the universe in 10,000 years time?
-
It is fine tuned? Fine tuned for what exactly? Maximum speed? Efficiency? Those extinct dinosaurs look pretty fine tuned to me too
-
Objective morality does not imply the existence of god by any philosopical standards. I wonder why you think it does?
-
People have person experiences? REALLY?! ARE YOU SERIOUS?! Dog turds have dog turd experiences. And of course people never lie or are ever mistaken or even misled by those who know how do they?
-
See above[/quote]
Let me ask you something, are you a skeptic?[/quote]
If you call needing more than ancient scrawls to believe that some ancient version of penn and teller DIDN’T dupe half the world into thinking the messiah had arrived then I guess you could say I am.
Philosophically speaking, however, I am by no means a skeptic.[/quote]
Okay, well you have people like the Jesus Seminar that corroborate the crucifixion being the skeptics they are (to give you a clue, they only believe Jesus said ‘Our Father’ in the Our Father prayer).
Then you have an empty tomb account by women (that is important). Moreover, you have thousands of people seeing Jesus and you have a shift of attitude from hiding in homes and leaving the city to leave trouble then all of a sudden everyone is willing to be martyred.
Nevertheless, you have skeptics at the time such as James and Paul who both didn’t know Jesus when he was alive and who actively persecuted the early Church all of a sudden join the Church and of course happily be martyred.
[quote]CappedAndPlanIt wrote:<<< Why would God be angry about something that furthers his own glory? [/quote]Good question. Seriously. It is God’s anger itself. His judgment of sin whereby His blinding holiness and flawless justice are magnificently displayed before all His creation that brings Him glory. Sin and wickedness, along with the occasion they provide FOR God to display His holiness and justice, also serve to punctuate by contrasting juxtaposition the unthinkable mercy grace and love He bestows upon those He saves who are just as guilty and deserving of that same damnation. He Himself has paid for them to not only avoid it, but be counted as His children, brethren and bride. OH GLORY BE TO HIS NAME!!!
Without sin there would be no vehicle for God to show Himself both utterly just and horrific in His judgments as well as without peer in His boundless mercy, grace and loving kindness in saving His elect from that same death. It’s all about Him dude. See that’s where the rub is. You don’t like that one bit. What about me!!! You mean to tell me I’m an instrument created by this God for His own selfish purposes. Yep. He can do it and you can’t. You WILL bring Him glory. Either through your damnation or salvation, but He ALWAYS wins. “AHHHHH, I could never believe in a God like that!!!”. You’re absolutely right. Neither could I if it weren’t for His all sovereign resurrecting power by which He brings men from death and darkness into His own life and light.
[quote]Tiribulus wrote:
[quote]CappedAndPlanIt wrote:<<< Why would God be angry about something that furthers his own glory? [/quote]Good question. Seriously. It is God’s anger itself. His judgment of sin whereby His blinding holiness and flawless justice are magnificently displayed before all His creation that brings Him glory. Sin and wickedness, along with the occasion they provide FOR God to display His holiness and justice, also serve to punctuate by contrasting juxtaposition the unthinkable mercy grace and love He bestows upon those He saves who are just as guilty and deserving of that same damnation. He Himself has paid for them to not only avoid it, but be counted as His children, brethren and bride. OH GLORY BE TO HIS NAME!!!
Without sin there would be no vehicle for God to show Himself both utterly just and horrific in His judgments as well as without peer in His boundless mercy, grace and loving kindness in saving His elect from that same death. It’s all about Him dude. See that’s where the rub is. You don’t like that one bit. What about me!!! You mean to tell me I’m an instrument created by this God for His own selfish purposes. Yep. He can do it and you can’t. You WILL bring Him glory. Either through your damnation or salvation, but He ALWAYS wins. “AHHHHH, I could never believe in a God like that!!!”. You’re absolutely right. Neither could I if it weren’t for His all sovereign resurrecting power by which He brings men from death and darkness into His own life and light.
[/quote]
Please don’t get in the habit of telling me what I like, or don’t like, or what I think. Please.
[quote]Tiribulus wrote:
Without sin there would be no vehicle for God to show Himself both utterly just and horrific in His judgments as well as without peer in His boundless mercy, grace and loving kindness in saving His elect from that same death. It’s all about Him dude. See that’s where the rub is. You don’t like that one bit. What about me!!! You mean to tell me I’m an instrument created by this God for His own selfish purposes. Yep. He can do it and you can’t. You WILL bring Him glory. Either through your damnation or salvation, but He ALWAYS wins. “AHHHHH, I could never believe in a God like that!!!”. You’re absolutely right. Neither could I if it weren’t for His all sovereign resurrecting power by which He brings men from death and darkness into His own life and light.
[/quote]
Ok, here’s a question I have, that I am honestly going to say I do not know the answer to, and that ephrem brought up in another thread (I think) in an exchange between the two of us.
If God allows sin for the purposes you describe above, or, as I believe (and I’m not necessarily sure our reasons differ, except the perhaps you will say I’m still making it about me), so that we might appreciate the good (not having any bad would leave us with no basis of comparison, no fire to forge the iron of our individual selves), then what was going on with the Garden of Eden and Adam and Eve?
I’ve tried typing this out about six different ways but I find myself at a rare loss for words in that I am not actually sure what I think or even what I believe I know about this. Maybe you get where I’m going with this, or maybe you think my thinking is wrong-headed to begin with. If you don’t know what I’m asking I’ll dig up the conversation between me and eph and throw it up here. I am looking for all knowledgeable posters thoughts, btw, not just Tirib’s.
Also if someone thinks this is throwing this thread way off the rails I’d be happy to start a new post about it. I just thought it flowed nicely from Tirib’s comment here.
[quote]Brother Chris wrote:
[quote]MassiveGuns wrote:
[quote]Brother Chris wrote:
[quote]MassiveGuns wrote:
-
It did? According to who? Still think they will have the same model of the beginnings of the universe in 10,000 years time?
-
It is fine tuned? Fine tuned for what exactly? Maximum speed? Efficiency? Those extinct dinosaurs look pretty fine tuned to me too
-
Objective morality does not imply the existence of god by any philosopical standards. I wonder why you think it does?
-
People have person experiences? REALLY?! ARE YOU SERIOUS?! Dog turds have dog turd experiences. And of course people never lie or are ever mistaken or even misled by those who know how do they?
-
See above[/quote]
Let me ask you something, are you a skeptic?[/quote]
If you call needing more than ancient scrawls to believe that some ancient version of penn and teller DIDN’T dupe half the world into thinking the messiah had arrived then I guess you could say I am.
Philosophically speaking, however, I am by no means a skeptic.[/quote]
Okay, well you have people like the Jesus Seminar that corroborate the crucifixion being the skeptics they are (to give you a clue, they only believe Jesus said ‘Our Father’ in the Our Father prayer).
Then you have an empty tomb account by women (that is important). Moreover, you have thousands of people seeing Jesus and you have a shift of attitude from hiding in homes and leaving the city to leave trouble then all of a sudden everyone is willing to be martyred.
Nevertheless, you have skeptics at the time such as James and Paul who both didn’t know Jesus when he was alive and who actively persecuted the early Church all of a sudden join the Church and of course happily be martyred.[/quote]
At that same point in history, it was commonly accepted wisdom that the earth was flat. There are millions of historical records of this account. Does that mean the world was flat back then? There are also many historical records of the con-men of the ages duping people into believing stupid things, and those are only the ones who were caught. Heard of Mesmer?
[quote]MassiveGuns wrote:
[quote]Brother Chris wrote:
[quote]MassiveGuns wrote:
[quote]Brother Chris wrote:
[quote]MassiveGuns wrote:
-
It did? According to who? Still think they will have the same model of the beginnings of the universe in 10,000 years time?
-
It is fine tuned? Fine tuned for what exactly? Maximum speed? Efficiency? Those extinct dinosaurs look pretty fine tuned to me too
-
Objective morality does not imply the existence of god by any philosopical standards. I wonder why you think it does?
-
People have person experiences? REALLY?! ARE YOU SERIOUS?! Dog turds have dog turd experiences. And of course people never lie or are ever mistaken or even misled by those who know how do they?
-
See above[/quote]
Let me ask you something, are you a skeptic?[/quote]
If you call needing more than ancient scrawls to believe that some ancient version of penn and teller DIDN’T dupe half the world into thinking the messiah had arrived then I guess you could say I am.
Philosophically speaking, however, I am by no means a skeptic.[/quote]
Okay, well you have people like the Jesus Seminar that corroborate the crucifixion being the skeptics they are (to give you a clue, they only believe Jesus said ‘Our Father’ in the Our Father prayer).
Then you have an empty tomb account by women (that is important). Moreover, you have thousands of people seeing Jesus and you have a shift of attitude from hiding in homes and leaving the city to leave trouble then all of a sudden everyone is willing to be martyred.
Nevertheless, you have skeptics at the time such as James and Paul who both didn’t know Jesus when he was alive and who actively persecuted the early Church all of a sudden join the Church and of course happily be martyred.[/quote]
At that same point in history, it was commonly accepted wisdom that the earth was flat. There are millions of historical records of this account. Does that mean the world was flat back then? There are also many historical records of the con-men of the ages duping people into believing stupid things, and those are only the ones who were caught. Heard of Mesmer?[/quote]
Peter and Paul weren’t encylopedia salesmen.
[quote]MassiveGuns wrote:
At that same point in history, it was commonly accepted wisdom that the earth was flat. There are millions of historical records of this account. Does that mean the world was flat back then? There are also many historical records of the con-men of the ages duping people into believing stupid things, and those are only the ones who were caught. Heard of Mesmer?[/quote]
So…that is your argument. That at one time someone thought the earth is flat, so we shouldn’t believe anyone. Except who you believe?
[quote]Brother Chris wrote:
[quote]MassiveGuns wrote:
At that same point in history, it was commonly accepted wisdom that the earth was flat. There are millions of historical records of this account. Does that mean the world was flat back then? There are also many historical records of the con-men of the ages duping people into believing stupid things, and those are only the ones who were caught. Heard of Mesmer?[/quote]
So…that is your argument. That at one time someone thought the earth is flat, so we shouldn’t believe anyone. Except who you believe?[/quote]
The point I was making that just because a belief is held by millions of people, even the majority, does not make it true. The other point is that ANYONE can claim to be a messiah. I can guarantee, if someone turned water into wine today, or supposedly rose from the dead, people would want proof. Scientifically viable proof. The supposed messiah would have to turn water into wine under strictly controlled conditions to satisfy the scientific community, and hopefully anyone else with common sense, that their claim was valid.
To hold highly the accounts of such things over 2000 years ago, is no different than believing in the alien abduction stories that litter the media, and the accounts of those that were supposedly abducted.
And as for who I believe? You are gravely mistaken in your terminology. Belief is the domain of religion. Separating fact from fiction is the domain of science. In the light of conflicting evidence, my viewpoint can change. Yours cannot, because you have already decided that your account is correct. You have no objective criteria for saying what you can and cannot trust and by how much.
Can you gather some idea of what happened in our distant past based on what we have around us, of course. Can you trust that enough to make serious conclusions about god and the universe? Absolutely not, and it is arrogant and ironically unchristian to do so, since stating that your worldview is correct so unashamedly lacks even an ounce of humility.
[quote]CappedAndPlanIt wrote:
[quote]Tiribulus wrote:
[quote]CappedAndPlanIt wrote:<<< Why would God be angry about something that furthers his own glory? [/quote]Good question. Seriously. It is God’s anger itself. His judgment of sin whereby His blinding holiness and flawless justice are magnificently displayed before all His creation that brings Him glory. Sin and wickedness, along with the occasion they provide FOR God to display His holiness and justice, also serve to punctuate by contrasting juxtaposition the unthinkable mercy grace and love He bestows upon those He saves who are just as guilty and deserving of that same damnation. He Himself has paid for them to not only avoid it, but be counted as His children, brethren and bride. OH GLORY BE TO HIS NAME!!!
Without sin there would be no vehicle for God to show Himself both utterly just and horrific in His judgments as well as without peer in His boundless mercy, grace and loving kindness in saving His elect from that same death. It’s all about Him dude. See that’s where the rub is. You don’t like that one bit. What about me!!! You mean to tell me I’m an instrument created by this God for His own selfish purposes. Yep. He can do it and you can’t. You WILL bring Him glory. Either through your damnation or salvation, but He ALWAYS wins. “AHHHHH, I could never believe in a God like that!!!”. You’re absolutely right. Neither could I if it weren’t for His all sovereign resurrecting power by which He brings men from death and darkness into His own life and light.
[/quote]
Please don’t get in the habit of telling me what I like, or don’t like, or what I think. Please.[/quote]
There is no room for tolerance in relgion.
[quote]MassiveGuns wrote:
[quote]Brother Chris wrote:
[quote]MassiveGuns wrote:
At that same point in history, it was commonly accepted wisdom that the earth was flat. There are millions of historical records of this account. Does that mean the world was flat back then? There are also many historical records of the con-men of the ages duping people into believing stupid things, and those are only the ones who were caught. Heard of Mesmer?[/quote]
So…that is your argument. That at one time someone thought the earth is flat, so we shouldn’t believe anyone. Except who you believe?[/quote]
The point I was making that just because a belief is held by millions of people, even the majority, does not make it true. [/quote]
Never said this. Nevertheless, to ignore what the ‘democracy of the dead’ has to say does have its consequences.
About your messiah comment, the fact that there is multiple messiahs isn’t evidence against an actual messiah. A better argument would be that the 1st century messianic expectations of the Palestinian Jews were that the messiah would be a military king in which to knock off the enemies of the Jews and to take over the Roman Empire. As well, they had no expectations of a messiah dying and they had no expectations and would have thought it laughable for someone to be resurrected from the dead especially before the final judgment.
[quote]Cortes wrote:
[quote]Tiribulus wrote:
Without sin there would be no vehicle for God to show Himself both utterly just and horrific in His judgments as well as without peer in His boundless mercy, grace and loving kindness in saving His elect from that same death. It’s all about Him dude. See that’s where the rub is. You don’t like that one bit. What about me!!! You mean to tell me I’m an instrument created by this God for His own selfish purposes. Yep. He can do it and you can’t. You WILL bring Him glory. Either through your damnation or salvation, but He ALWAYS wins. “AHHHHH, I could never believe in a God like that!!!”. You’re absolutely right. Neither could I if it weren’t for His all sovereign resurrecting power by which He brings men from death and darkness into His own life and light.
[/quote]
Ok, here’s a question I have, that I am honestly going to say I do not know the answer to, and that ephrem brought up in another thread (I think) in an exchange between the two of us.
If God allows sin for the purposes you describe above, or, as I believe (and I’m not necessarily sure our reasons differ, except the perhaps you will say I’m still making it about me), so that we might appreciate the good (not having any bad would leave us with no basis of comparison, no fire to forge the iron of our individual selves), then what was going on with the Garden of Eden and Adam and Eve?
I’ve tried typing this out about six different ways but I find myself at a rare loss for words in that I am not actually sure what I think or even what I believe I know about this. Maybe you get where I’m going with this, or maybe you think my thinking is wrong-headed to begin with. If you don’t know what I’m asking I’ll dig up the conversation between me and eph and throw it up here. I am looking for all knowledgeable posters thoughts, btw, not just Tirib’s.
Also if someone thinks this is throwing this thread way off the rails I’d be happy to start a new post about it. I just thought it flowed nicely from Tirib’s comment here.
[/quote]
The way I have heard it explained (The way my former church explained it anyway)was that the Devil believed that whatever happened, as long as he could get them to eat of the fruit, He won.
By stating to Eve that the threat of eminent death was untrue he knew that God would have to forgo immediate destruction or else there would be no human race, and he would appear to have been telling the truth once she ate and yet lived. With trust established it would then be easy to get her to entice Adam to do so as well. Once they had both disobeyed, God’s new flower would have been despoiled.
I have heard far more detailed and bizarre explanations once you begin to include accounts from the Epic of Gilgamesh and the whole story of Lilith, etc.