[quote]Brother Chris wrote:<<< I’d also like you to prove the historical account of Jesus death, tomb, resurrection, and martyrdom - plus James and Paul - to be false.[/quote]Why Chris? WHY?!?!?! Didn’t Jesus teach us in the story of the rich man and Lazarus that if people won’t believe the law and the prophets neither will they believe if one returns from the dead? Learn to choose your battles.
[/quote]
Tirib - question. If everything is decided by god, and exists to further his glory, how can there be sin? [/quote]
It is his ultimate gift to us. Free will and the ability to defy him and burn in hell.
It is a very elaborate story that builds on itself but it has no foundation other than itself. It is self justifying.
[quote]Brother Chris wrote:<<< I’d also like you to prove the historical account of Jesus death, tomb, resurrection, and martyrdom - plus James and Paul - to be false.[/quote]Why Chris? WHY?!?!?! Didn’t Jesus teach us in the story of the rich man and Lazarus that if people won’t believe the law and the prophets neither will they believe if one returns from the dead? Learn to choose your battles.
[/quote]
Tirib - question. If everything is decided by god, and exists to further his glory, how can there be sin? [/quote]To further His glory. Which it most resplendently does.
[/quote]
I thought sin, by definition, was going against the will of god.[/quote]
Here we go 'round the mulberry bush,
The mulberry bush,
The mulberry bush.
Here we go 'round the mulberry bush
On a cold and frosty morning.
Second verse, same as the first![/quote]
Exactly. Damn you for luring me into this silly thread.
[quote]TheBigV wrote:Time to be as evil as possible until right before I die… then ask for forgiveness. Thanks God![/quote]Can’t plan it aheada time bub. That would be letting sin abound so that grace may much more abound which the apostle Paul denounces in the book of Romans. “God fobid!!” says he.
No, I mean the ones in which people such as Monsignor Lemaitre were published in during his time and other such academically accepted journals. You do realize I hold to the theory of evolution and the hypothesis of the primeval atom?
[quote]
Whilst trying to sound clever, you unfortunately missed the point I was making, that regardless of the “accuracy” of any historical account YOU provide for YOUR religion, there are equally “accurate”, and I cringe in using that word, accounts for all the other major religions.[/quote]
Really? That is interesting, I have yet to find one that I didn’t have reasons not to believe it was true and I’m talking about Islam here because it’s the only other monotheistic religion around. The other ones don’t hold to a G-d in which would fit the Kalam argument.
[quote]
You don’t just have to prove that god exists, but that your account of his existence is over and above everyone elses.[/quote]
I already said I could, pointed out the five reasons:
The Universe began to exist.
The Universe is fine-tuned.
There is objective morality.
Person experiences.
Jesus of Nazareth.
[quote]
The goddamn news isn’t even accurate so how anyone can expect to trust the fine detail of ancient human records is beyond me. History is a hazy picture at best.[/quote]
Awesome, so we should not believe in anything?
[quote]
If we ended up making ourselves extinct and aliens landed on our planet and dug up a copy of the star wars box set on blu-ray (which kicks ass) they may be forgiven for thinking that the extinct inhabitants may have had the abilty to travel through space. How would they be able to figure out is was fiction and not based on a true story? [/quote]
Historical evidence, archeology, &c.
Or they could do something called the scientific method…but they don’t have the Catholic Church to teach them that though. :)[/quote]
Just because a journal is peer-reviewed means nothing my friend. Stop waving that term around like it means something or somehow grants any legitimacy to your BELIEFS (note I did not say arguments)
How do you know that the mono-theistic account of god is correct? You have no way of knowing or even answering that question. Kalam Shmalam my ass. The vikings had some pretty damn good tales of thor and his intervention in battles. Prove your accounts over theirs? Its an exercise in futility, so why bother? Unless of course you have some serious cognitive dissonance to rationalise away…[/quote]
Lol. Really exercise in futility? Well all I have to do is prove
The universe began to exist
The universe is fine tuned
That morals are objective
People have person experiences
And, the account of Jesus of Nazareth is true (actually just this one in my case) and the rest of the gods are proven to be false in one swoop.[/quote]
It did? According to who? Still think they will have the same model of the beginnings of the universe in 10,000 years time?
It is fine tuned? Fine tuned for what exactly? Maximum speed? Efficiency? Those extinct dinosaurs look pretty fine tuned to me too
Objective morality does not imply the existence of god by any philosopical standards. I wonder why you think it does?
People have person experiences? REALLY?! ARE YOU SERIOUS?! Dog turds have dog turd experiences. And of course people never lie or are ever mistaken or even misled by those who know how do they?
[quote]MassiveGuns wrote:<<< Still think they will have the same model of the beginnings of the universe in 10,000 years time? >>>[/quote]Ohhh “they” most assuredly will not, but I will.
[quote]TheBigV wrote:
Time to be as evil as possible until right before I die… then ask for forgiveness. Thanks God![/quote]
I hope this isn’t offensive…but you sound like my 12 year olds in my Catechism classes when I explain repentance and confession.
They get this great idea that they can do whatever they want, then just go to confession right before they die. Except they forget two things 1) they don’t have a personal priest, and 2) they don’t know when they are going to die.
Conversation goes something like this:
12 Y/O’s: We can do whatever we want and then confess our sins before we die and then go to Heaven?
Me: Yes.
12: COOL! Now, I can do whatever I want to do!
Me: Sure, except…
12: Except what?
Me: Well, do you know when you’re going to die?
12: Sure, when I’m old.
Me: What if you were doing something you wanted to do…let’s say rob a bank. Makes lots of money doing that, hardly have to work, exciting, running from the police!
12: Yeah!
Me: But, what if a Police officer kills you on the way out of bank?
12: Well then we’d die in a state of mortal sin.
Me: My point exactly.
12: So, with the grace of G-d we should do our best to not sin and go to confession when we do, because we don’t know when G-d will bring us home?
Me: Now, you understand.
Don’t mean to offend you, but it’s strange when a grown man brings up an argument that I hear from 12-year-olds…and they usually get it if they think a little.
It did? According to who? Still think they will have the same model of the beginnings of the universe in 10,000 years time?
It is fine tuned? Fine tuned for what exactly? Maximum speed? Efficiency? Those extinct dinosaurs look pretty fine tuned to me too
Objective morality does not imply the existence of god by any philosopical standards. I wonder why you think it does?
People have person experiences? REALLY?! ARE YOU SERIOUS?! Dog turds have dog turd experiences. And of course people never lie or are ever mistaken or even misled by those who know how do they?
Well, maybe I am wrong, but from what I have seen, Jesus is a historical person. Do you have any evidence that Jesus didn’t in fact exist?
Otherwise it seems like pseudo-skepticism.[/quote]
There is limited and questionable evidence Jesus existed. History records dozens of people claiming to be the messiah around that time but none are definitively Jesus. Any historical record of Jesus comes well after his death.
No objective person can claim definitely either way.
Well, maybe I am wrong, but from what I have seen, Jesus is a historical person. Do you have any evidence that Jesus didn’t in fact exist?
Otherwise it seems like pseudo-skepticism.[/quote]
There is limited and questionable evidence Jesus existed. History records dozens of people claiming to be the messiah around that time but none are definitively Jesus. Any historical record of Jesus comes well after his death.
No objective person can claim definitely either way.[/quote]
Limited? I guess four detailed accounts of his life, a dozen more pieces of evidence from historians are questionable. But, that means almost all other evidence is limited and questionable for other historical figures, as well.
I’m pretty objective. And, I do claim one way. Yes I agree, there was plenty of people claimed to be messiahs because the Jews knew from their tradition that there would be a messiah. However, history only records one. And evidence points towards that being true.
Well, maybe I am wrong, but from what I have seen, Jesus is a historical person. Do you have any evidence that Jesus didn’t in fact exist?
Otherwise it seems like pseudo-skepticism.[/quote]
There is limited and questionable evidence Jesus existed. History records dozens of people claiming to be the messiah around that time but none are definitively Jesus. Any historical record of Jesus comes well after his death.
No objective person can claim definitely either way.[/quote]
Limited? I guess four detailed accounts of his life, a dozen more pieces of evidence from historians are questionable. But, that means almost all other evidence is limited and questionable for other historical figures, as well.
I’m pretty objective. And, I do claim one way. Yes I agree, there was plenty of people claimed to be messiahs because the Jews knew from their tradition that there would be a messiah. However, history only records one. And evidence points towards that being true.[/quote]
If you were objective you would know that the evidence is questionable. Believe what you want but know it is based on faith, not fact.
Well, maybe I am wrong, but from what I have seen, Jesus is a historical person. Do you have any evidence that Jesus didn’t in fact exist?
Otherwise it seems like pseudo-skepticism.[/quote]
There is limited and questionable evidence Jesus existed. History records dozens of people claiming to be the messiah around that time but none are definitively Jesus. Any historical record of Jesus comes well after his death.
No objective person can claim definitely either way.[/quote]
Limited? I guess four detailed accounts of his life, a dozen more pieces of evidence from historians are questionable. But, that means almost all other evidence is limited and questionable for other historical figures, as well.
I’m pretty objective. And, I do claim one way. Yes I agree, there was plenty of people claimed to be messiahs because the Jews knew from their tradition that there would be a messiah. However, history only records one. And evidence points towards that being true.[/quote]
If you were objective you would know that the evidence is questionable. Believe what you want but know it is based on faith, not fact.
[/quote]
Everything is questionable…want me to ‘prove’ it to you. Prove to us that the world and your memories weren’t created five minutes ago…you can’t. That is why skepticism is beyond my ability to embrace because I know it would just lead ultimately to fatalism, I have already been there and don’t wanna do it again.
Well, maybe I am wrong, but from what I have seen, Jesus is a historical person. Do you have any evidence that Jesus didn’t in fact exist?
Otherwise it seems like pseudo-skepticism.[/quote]
There is limited and questionable evidence Jesus existed. History records dozens of people claiming to be the messiah around that time but none are definitively Jesus. Any historical record of Jesus comes well after his death.
No objective person can claim definitely either way.[/quote]
You’re dismissed.
Back to your “Man Never Landed on the Moon” thread on bodybuilding.com. You’re toast here now.[/quote]
This is why these threads are a waste of time. Curse you sexmachine for luring me in here with the title.
The historical record of Jesus is sketchy. There is no debating this point. The believers will tell you that it is intentional. God wants you to have faith, not proof. Only the ill informed and those prone to conspiracies like a fake moon landing will claim otherwise.
Well, maybe I am wrong, but from what I have seen, Jesus is a historical person. Do you have any evidence that Jesus didn’t in fact exist?
Otherwise it seems like pseudo-skepticism.[/quote]
There is limited and questionable evidence Jesus existed. History records dozens of people claiming to be the messiah around that time but none are definitively Jesus. Any historical record of Jesus comes well after his death.
No objective person can claim definitely either way.[/quote]
Limited? I guess four detailed accounts of his life, a dozen more pieces of evidence from historians are questionable. But, that means almost all other evidence is limited and questionable for other historical figures, as well.
I’m pretty objective. And, I do claim one way. Yes I agree, there was plenty of people claimed to be messiahs because the Jews knew from their tradition that there would be a messiah. However, history only records one. And evidence points towards that being true.[/quote]
If you were objective you would know that the evidence is questionable. Believe what you want but know it is based on faith, not fact.
[/quote]
Everything is questionable…want me to ‘prove’ it to you. Prove to us that the world and your memories weren’t created five minutes ago…you can’t. That is why skepticism is beyond my ability to embrace because I know it would just lead ultimately to fatalism, I have already been there and don’t wanna do it again.[/quote]
Then enjoy the philosophy/religion you need to get you through the sleepless nights. Don’t push it on me.
[quote]Big Banana wrote:
God wants you to have faith, not proof.[/quote]
Who taught you vocabulary? And, Jesus is a real person with real evidence. You can always have a ‘doubt’ that the evidence isn’t true, but that’s called be a skeptic or more correctly a cynic.
Well, maybe I am wrong, but from what I have seen, Jesus is a historical person. Do you have any evidence that Jesus didn’t in fact exist?
Otherwise it seems like pseudo-skepticism.[/quote]
There is limited and questionable evidence Jesus existed. History records dozens of people claiming to be the messiah around that time but none are definitively Jesus. Any historical record of Jesus comes well after his death.
No objective person can claim definitely either way.[/quote]
Limited? I guess four detailed accounts of his life, a dozen more pieces of evidence from historians are questionable. But, that means almost all other evidence is limited and questionable for other historical figures, as well.
I’m pretty objective. And, I do claim one way. Yes I agree, there was plenty of people claimed to be messiahs because the Jews knew from their tradition that there would be a messiah. However, history only records one. And evidence points towards that being true.[/quote]
If you were objective you would know that the evidence is questionable. Believe what you want but know it is based on faith, not fact.
[/quote]
Everything is questionable…want me to ‘prove’ it to you. Prove to us that the world and your memories weren’t created five minutes ago…you can’t. That is why skepticism is beyond my ability to embrace because I know it would just lead ultimately to fatalism, I have already been there and don’t wanna do it again.[/quote]
Then enjoy the philosophy/religion you need to get you through the sleepless nights. Don’t push it on me.[/quote]
Religion doesn’t get me through my sleepless nights (actually I pretty much sleep good all the time), not being a skeptic gets me through the night.