Why I Can't Be Muslim

[brucevangeorge]

[quote]pickapeck wrote:
“Those people” perform these acts based on their ideology, which boils down to “Do unto others as you would have them do unto you.” Ask yourself this" Are there an equal number of Atheistic charity groups? The hones answer is no. The Atheistic philosophy has no equivalent major Tenant.[/quote]

Being an Atheist means you do not believe in God. Partially or at all and you do not take part in organized religion.

That’s it. Nothing more.

There is no philosophy, or dogma. You simply refuse all organized (and non-organized) religion.

-Atheism is the state either of being without theistic beliefs, or of actively disbelieving in the existence of deities. {Google Definitions}

-[Christians are] Those who follow the teachings of Jesus Christ. [from the Bible].

See? Atheism doesn’t even have its own Bible. If it did, it would be a religion. However its not a religion. Its is simply a complete lack of it.

[Varqanir]

[quote]etaco wrote:
a society in which all the women are kept pregnant, barefoot, and illiterate[/quote]

Mississippi?

[pickapeck]

Have either of you heard of Nietzsche. Pookie, you can not stay on topic. Rather than go off on tangents you might try to address the issues. I have presented that Catholic and Christian Charities do good. You have not refuted that but only attacked the faith. I rebutted your “usual proselytizing case”.

You have not answered. And challenged you to present an equal amount of charity performed by atheist groups, which has not been addressed. And still, you refuse to acknowledge the truth of my original statement that “Christians do a tremendous amount of good in the world.”

[pookie]

[quote]lixy wrote:
The human body, for example, is an amazing machine that is pretty close to perfection.[/quote]

Close to perfection? I think any numbers of engineer could design much better body if they had the chance.

Why do we breathe, eat and drink using the same hole? Thousands of people choke to death each year because food gets stuck in the windpipe.

The human eye is wired incorrectly, creating a blindspot. A squid has its eyes wired properly.

Many reptiles can regrow limbs when they lose them. Why can’t we.

Thousands of diseases can afflict us. Cancer. Fun ones like Tay-Sachs disease, which in its most common form affects infants and kills most of them before they’re 3.

I could go on for pages. I think your idea of “perfection” needs a little tuning. There is nothing perfect in nature.

[quote]Sadly, some people do to justify their incitation to hatred and violence. But I see
a message of peace in it.[/quote]

But is those people’s interpretation any less valid than yours? That’s what bothers me with a lot of holy books. While they’re called “good” and “messages of peace,” they’re filled with violent passages. If God existed, surely he’d know that this kind of message would confuse many and lead to acts of violence and wars.

If you take the teachings of Jainism, for example ( Jainism - Wikipedia ) there is an absolute respect for all life. Killing a human being is completely abhorrent to its follower.

If the supposed creator is benevolent, all good and loving, wouldn’t the teachings of Jainism appear to be closer to his message to us?

“Convincing” as a start point. From that proposition and try to prove or disprove it, that is.

But only on the question of god. If I tell you I have a unicorn in my backyard, you won’t believe me until I show her to you. Your initial position would be one of extreme skepticism.

But if I claim an even more fantastic being, self-created, perfect, able to create whole universes on a whim, yet invisible and completely undetectable, your initial position is “Yeah, that sounds right.”

I cannot dismiss the crushing majority of people as stupid slobs who don’t have a clue.

Almost everyone who’s religious has been taught his beliefs from a very young age. Kids aren’t able to properly distinguish fact from fiction; you can get them to believe anything.

For a lot of them, even if they eventually question their faith, it’s comforting to feel part of a community. That’s probably why you have so many people who are “believers” in word only. They say all the right things, but do very little different than a non-believer does.

No one wants to be the first to admit that the emperor has no clothes.

Why are the Americans content with the status quo? The majority opposes the war, but their government still behaves as a bully. And we’re talking about the so-called “greatest democracy”.

Every country calls itself “The greatest country.” I’m sure North Korea is quite the paradise if you ask Kim Jong Il.

Then change your perspective. Travel around, talk to people in Africa and the M.E. about that and you’ll see the bias in your media.

Oops. Gotta go. I’ll try to address the rest later.

[pookie]

[quote]pickapeck wrote:
Have either of you heard of Nietzsche. Pookie, you can not stay on topic. Rather than go off on tangents you might try to address the issues. I have presented that Catholic and Christian Charities do good. You have not refuted that but only attacked the faith. I rebutted your “usual proselytizing case”. [/quote]

It is on topic. You point out the good, I point out that they’re not the only ones to do good and that they also do wrong because of their inflexible policies on birth control. The fact that you prefer to dismiss all of it as off topic is on you, not me.

Anything I write that nuances or balances your assertion that Christians do a lot of good is dismissed as tangential and off topic. You’re not debating, you’re preaching from the pulpit.

Plugging you ears and screaming “la-la-la we do good-good-good!” is not a very convincing argument though.

You have not answered. And challenged you to present an equal amount of charity performed by atheist groups, which has not been addressed. And still, you refuse to acknowledge the truth of my original statement that “Christians do a tremendous amount of good in the world.”

It’s all been addressed. Some charities are secular (not necessarily outright atheist in nature) and do similar amount of good as other charities. There might be less of them, simply because the vast majority of people are believers; it follows that the ratio should be in favor of charities based on a faith or another.

The number of charities doesn’t exculpate the Church in other areas where its policies are wrong and harmful.

But that’s just tangential… like abusing a kid. Who cares, right? As long as someone does more charity work than kid diddling, the overall effect is positive. Why don’t we just shut up and ignore the wrongs?

[brucevangeorge]

[quote]pickapeck wrote:
You have not answered. And challenged you to present an equal amount of charity performed by atheist groups, which has not been addressed.[/quote]

Just because an atheist does not believe in ?God? does not indicate that they do not have a commitment to the well being of other people. In fact, the atheistic perspective indicates a strong affirmation of humanity, without passing the buck of responsibility to the intangible concept of a Deity.

The misconception about atheists, that they are ?against God? and all that this stands for, here extrapolated to assume they are against people and do no good works to benefit others, is just more of the same propaganda against anyone who stands out against a System that is structured to keep the little cogs in line, grinding out money for The Big Machine. And there?s no better way to accomplish this than through organized religion. -Monica A. Harris

Atheist Centre of India
The Atheist Centre was founded in 1940 by the Gora family, who were associated with Ghandi and the nationalist movement for freedom. They provide counseling, are fighting against the caste system and for the abolition of child marriages, helping ex-prostitutes, and protecting widows from inhumane customs. They also dispell superstitions by scientific demonstrations, and are asked to calm witchcraft hysterias. They provide sex education and family planning, are carrying on a rural development program, and have a center for free cornea grafting operations which is giving sight to the blind.
http://www.positiveatheism.org/tocindia.htm

Atheist Charity
This is a new, small charity run by atheist volunteers. They currently give money to other charities for the poor, are involved in forming a non-discriminatory alternative to the Boy Scouts, and later will start natural disaster relief projects.
http://www.atheistcharity.org

EARTHWARD, Inc.
Earth?s Atheist Resistance To Holy Wars And Religious Devastation gives humanitarian aid to victims of religiously motivated violence. I?m chair and co-founder.

Earthward

Humanitas
Dutch organization for social care an community development, based upon humanistic principles with projects in the fields of child-care, elderly homes, support for the homeless, care for the disabled, visiting and empowering the lonely, and grief counseling.

Vereniging Humanitas

Humanist Institute for Cooperation with Developing Countries
Hivos is an organisation working to promote: democracy; economic development; cultural development; human rights, including equal rights for women, in the developing countries of Africa, Asia, Latin-America and South-east Europe. It also combats poverty and the spread of AIDS in those areas.

Homepage - Hivos- People Unlimited

Source:(http://www.positiveatheism.org/mail/eml9553.htm)

[brucevangeorge]

[quote]pickapeck wrote:
You have not answered. And challenged you to present an equal amount of charity performed by atheist groups, which has not been addressed.[/quote]

You could have addressed this yourself in less than a few seconds by typing “atheist charity” into Google.

But I guess you really didn’t want to do that since it would prove your point to be wrong. If you don’t see it, it doesn’t exist. Right?

[brucevangeorge]

[quote]pookie wrote:
But if I claim an even more fantastic being, self-created, perfect, able to create whole universes on a whim, yet invisible and completely undetectable, your initial position is “Yeah, that sounds right.”[/quote]

The reason it sounds right is because everyone says it. This is a form of brainwashing. (Highly effective too.) Everyone blindly believes because they have been taught by blind believers to believe. It is even more effective when you teach young children.

They have incredible minds that soak up everything. True or false. And they grow into adults with the same beliefs that were implanted in them by repetition. (Why do you think you have to go to church every Sunday?)

[lixy]

[quote]brucevangeorge wrote:
Other living creatures have an even better ability to adapt. You’ve obviously never studied bacteria.[/quote]

You’ve obviously not followed my discussion with pookie closely. I specifically reffered to men and bacteria.

Until we have the ability to compare it to other sentient beings around the universe we’ll see just how ‘spectacular’ we are. Until then, its simply your ego talking.

LOL

Agreed.

[brucevangeorge]

[quote]lixy wrote:
and[/quote]

You have to use the square brackets.

[pickapeck]

[quote]brucevangeorge wrote:
pickapeck wrote:
You have not answered. And challenged you to present an equal amount of charity performed by atheist groups, which has not been addressed.

You could have addressed this yourself in less than a few seconds by typing “atheist charity” into Google.

But I guess you really didn’t want to do that since it would prove your point to be wrong. If you don’t see it, it doesn’t exist. Right?[/quote]

I am aware that such groups exist. The key word was equal too. You have mentioned several groups. I still do not know what their magnitude is compared to that of Christians. But great work that you posted this information. I still think Christian organizations do a lot of good and likely more than atheist groups. That these organizations exist increases the good in the world and we should all be grateful for that. I think it is a shame that you and Pookie have such disdain for Christians. I guess it’s time that all Christians be persecuted once again. It is apparent that no one can post a statement that Christians do good or offer their good deeds as witness without a shout down implying all Christians are proselytizers, supremacists and opportunists and the Catholics are guided by the hands of evil pedophiles. I know this is a false characterization.

[Zap_Branigan]

[quote]pookie wrote:
lixy wrote:
The human body, for example, is an amazing machine that is pretty close to perfection.

Close to perfection? I think any numbers of engineer could design much better body if they had the chance.
[/quote]

Have you seen what engineers come up with? Nothing that compares to a well formed female human body! It is like a work of art and should never be hidden. The original point of the thread.

Why do we breathe, eat and drink using the same hole? Thousands of people choke to death each year because food gets stuck in the windpipe.

…

You forgot the sewage running through the playground. Must have been designed by a civil engineer.

[Zap_Branigan]

[quote]brucevangeorge wrote:
lixy wrote:
and

You have to use the square brackets.[/quote]

Go back to your old avatar.

[pickapeck]

[quote]It is on topic. You point out the good, I point out that they’re not the only ones to do good and that they also do wrong because of their inflexible policies on birth control. The fact that you prefer to dismiss all of it as off topic is on you, not me.

Anything I write that nuances or balances your assertion that Christians do a lot of good is dismissed as tangential and off topic. You’re not debating, you’re preaching from the pulpit.

Plugging you ears and screaming “la-la-la we do good-good-good!” is not a very convincing argument though. [/quote]

I addressed the pedophile issue even though It was an attack on character and did not address the statement that Christians do a lot of good. Referring to the African situation, you still have not framed the argument and I did indicate my interest and willingness to engage you in such debate. And I did indicate to you that proselytizing while doing good is much preferred to demanding conversion at the point of a sword as we have seen from other religions recently. I do not see a problem with offering one’s faith for consideration. There is the opportunity to exercise free will.

Now you have brought up birth control and accused me of avoiding that issue. Do you realize that is the first time the words “birth control” have entered into our discussion?

It’s all been addressed. Some charities are secular (not necessarily outright atheist in nature) and do similar amount of good as other charities. There might be less of them, simply because the vast majority of people are believers; it follows that the ratio should be in favor of charities based on a faith or another.

I agree

The number of charities doesn’t exculpate the Church in other areas where its policies are wrong and harmful.

I agree. The number of charities does not remove the harm done. However, I think it is important to understand that the good that a sinner does does not diminish the good that was done. It should be a simple task to separate the act of good from ones personal opinion of those that perform the good. The difficulty is in removing emotion form the observation and viewing it through the eyes of reason.

But that’s just tangential… like abusing a kid. Who cares, right? As long as someone does more charity work than kid diddling, the overall effect is positive. Why don’t we just shut up and ignore the wrongs?

This is a very emotional statement. There are really two issues here. We can both agree that acts of charity are good, debate motivations of said acts and so on, likely we could reasonably disagree on many aspects and also agree on some. We could also debate the pedophile priests issue and likely agree on points and disagree on a few in well reasoned debate. The two issues really do not commute.

I do, however, enjoy our discussion. I find your view interesting and stimulating.

[pickapeck]

[quote]brucevangeorge wrote:
pickapeck wrote:
“Those people” perform these acts based on their ideology, which boils down to “Do unto others as you would have them do unto you.” Ask yourself this" Are there an equal number of Atheistic charity groups? The hones answer is no. The Atheistic philosophy has no equivalent major Tenant.

Being an Atheist means you do not believe in God. Partially or at all and you do not take part in organized religion.

That’s it. Nothing more.

There is no philosophy, or dogma. You simply refuse all organized (and non-organized) religion.

-Atheism is the state either of being without theistic beliefs, or of actively disbelieving in the existence of deities. {Google Definitions}

-[Christians are] Those who follow the teachings of Jesus Christ. [from the Bible].

See? Atheism doesn’t even have its own Bible. If it did, it would be a religion. However its not a religion. Its is simply a complete lack of it.[/quote]

Incidentally, The Atheist Nietzsche defined good, evil, happiness and charity in the following way:

"What is good?–Whatever augments the feeling of power, the will to power, power itself, in man.

What is evil?–Whatever springs from weakness.

What is happiness?–The feeling that power increases–that resistance is overcome. Not contentment, but more power; not peace at any price, but war; not virtue, but efficiency (virtue in the Renaissance sense, virtue, virtue free of moral acid).

The weak and the botched shall perish: first principle of our charity. And one should help them to it."

The influence that this man had on the German people gives me shudders. His was definitely and Atheistic philosophy.

[brucevangeorge]

[quote]Zap Branigan wrote:
Go back to your old avatar.[/quote]

I’m building up the suspense for the next one.

[brucevangeorge]

[quote]pickapeck wrote:
His was definitely and Atheistic philosophy.[/quote]

No. Just philosophy.

[brucevangeorge]

[quote]pickapeck wrote:
I am aware that such groups exist. The key word was equal too. You have mentioned several groups. I still do not know what their magnitude is compared to that of Christians.[/quote]

One could say that you do not know the magnitude of the Christian ones either.

[quote]
But great work that you posted this information.[/quote]

Thank you.

[quote]
I still think Christian organizations do a lot of good and likely more than atheist groups.[/quote]

When you find figures, then you can say this as loud and as often as we have patience. Until then it is personal opinion.

[quote]
That these organizations exist increases the good in the world and we should all be grateful for that.[/quote]

I agree.

[quote]
I think it is a shame that you and Pookie have such disdain for Christians. I guess it’s time that all Christians be persecuted once again. It is apparent that no one can post a statement that Christians do good or offer their good deeds as witness without a shout down implying all Christians are proselytizers, supremacists and opportunists and the Catholics are guided by the hands of evil pedophiles. I know this is a false characterization. [/quote]

The Christians have done as much bad as good. Just like the Muslims, just like the Catholics, just like the Jehova’s witnesses who refuse medical treatment to their own flesh and blood.

So don’t come here preaching that they are complete angels and free from criticism. They are not. These groups are made of people and as a result can and do make many mistakes. Yes they do some good, and yes they have also done ALOT of bad.

Now that’s not to say that they are evil, but just that they are human. They are not above anything.

[Hanzo]

[quote]brucevangeorge wrote:

Just because an atheist does not believe in ?God? does not indicate that they do not have a commitment to the well being of other people. In fact, the atheistic perspective indicates a strong affirmation of humanity, without passing the buck of responsibility to the intangible concept of a Deity.

[/quote]

How can there be an atheistic perspective without some kind of “unity” and philosophy.

[brucevangeorge]

[quote]Hanzo wrote:
How can there be an atheistic perspective without some kind of “unity” and philosophy.[/quote]

Atheism is to each his own. Do whatever you want.

The only thing that unites atheists is the fact that they do not believe in a higher power controlling their lives, the universe, fate… etc.