I’ll offer what I feel like offering. I’m not at your beck and call and I am not going to be bullied into “serious dialogue” by you or anyone else here. There are a plenty of threads in this forum where I racked up hundreds of posts at a time, because I felt there was something to be shared and learned, even from posters like ephrem or orion with whom I often hold diametrically opposing views. This thread doesn’t feel that way. My piggy post tells why.
For your part, I have noticed your change in tone, but the fact is you only recently adopted this new “respectful” demeanor, and even in this very thread I could pull out plenty of openly contemptuous posts by you. Believe it or not, I’m actually a pretty amicable guy, able to get along with people you’d never think I would. But I won’t tolerate badgering, disingenuousness, or unwarranted discourtesy. If you can “manage” to actually eliminate these elements from your posts, perhaps I can “manage” to add something you’ll appreciate. [/quote]
I think Cortes about sums it up tough guy. One more poster on this thread that actually knows you. And don’t kid yourself with some of the others, they probably know you too but are being kind. Best stay on your good behavior if you want to continue to fool them with your fraudulent ways.[/quote]
seek professional help ZEB. you’re obviously a very unhappy “man”. [/quote]
Says the man who writes yet one more attack post and not a word to say on topic. Same old act, different thread.
[/quote]
Seriously, are you ill?
I wrote an attack post? Or did I respond to you. I know you’re ill, or you just have a weird sense of humor. But seriously, you’re a odd dude.
Now wondering why God doesn’t communicate with us anymore is an attack post? Dude, pick your panties up from around your ankles and go home. Grown men are trying to talk.
A long time ago, very long ago, there was a poster here named ZEB. ZEB appeared to be a humble sort of fellow, even to the point of claiming you could learn something from everyone, no matter their age or their experience level (I can provide that reference if necessary). ZEB even made a rather informative post about chinning that contained some decent advice.
Since that time, ZEB has aged. He now almost exclusively patrols PWI for anything that he does not agree with. He is even on another thread right now, attacking someone else and their opinions because of their perceived lack of experience, and expressly, their age. Just not the same guy is he?
Anyway, in the spirit of ZEB’s chin up post, I offer you ZEB’s manual for internet fighting. I do not offer this manual in the hopes that you will adopt his tactics, but in the hope that you will recognize the tactics and look thru the window into the soul of a man who has aged, is frustrated, thinks he knows everything and has just generally become intolerant to anything that doesn’t align with his religious or political beliefs. He is the caricature of the man standing on his lawn, shaking his fist at every passer-by, bitching and moaning, and lying.
Here are his tactics:
Obfuscation.
He rarely engages in the text book example of this because once you disagree with him, he rarely actually attempts to make a cogent point. However, all his other tactics are used in an attempt to obfuscate and avoid meaningful dialogue.
Quoting out of Context.
This is really a favorite of his. He’ll build a straw man (more on that later) and cherry pick a quote to feed his straw man. Also, in an attempt to make any reply to him damn near impossible, he will pick apart and respond to discrete sentences, rendering any response on the forum a jumbled confusion and more trouble than it’s worth.
He engages in the sentence by sentence reply not for an attempt at clarity, but to preclude you from rebutting his attacks and tactics. So desperate is his reach in the quoting out of context tactic, that he actually searched for a humorous post of mine from SAMA about making home porn, to make a “point” in this thread.
Ad Hominem. This is a favorite of his. It’s quite transparent and requires no further explanation. He’s employing this now in the Jihad thread. He’s attacking someone’s age and experience instead of addressing their arguments. He has also disdainfully labeled some of you here, “atheist” for no other reason than your views do not comport with his own. Since you do not believe in “God”, you surely cannot have a dialogue about God right?
Association Fallacy. He has done this several times in this thread.
Character Assassination. A favorite of cowards worldwide. ZEB even tries to bring to bear my “confession” (haha, lol I knew he’s like that) in the SAMA cheating thread to this thread. Hmmm.
Fundamental Attribution Error. This is a favorite of our Good Christian ZEB. ZEB will pull you into the mud with him, start rasslin with ya, and then turn around and yell for everyone to hear how muddy you are, while he himself is still covered in slime.
False Consensus Effect. This is illustrated where he attempts to bolster his attacks with the similar attacks of someone like Cortes. Remember in high school where one girl decided she didn’t like another girl anymore? What did she do? She attempted to enlist her girlfriends to disliking the girl. Once her girlfriends shared their disdain for the target of her hatred, the girl could then proclaim the target of her hatred, “unpopular”. ZEB still remembers his high school days quite well, in spite of his advanced age.
Straw Man. A favorite of his, requires no real explanation.
Now this is the “DaVinci Code” of ZEB’s arguments (I knew he’d appreciate the DaVinci Code reference). Don’t be confused! Some of these tactics blur from one to the other. He sometimes employs more than one at at time. But be assured, from henceforth, when ZEB responds with anything other than meritorious argument, I shall only reply by referencing from the above Instruction Book and link to this. Sometimes, it may become necessary to add to this Guide - in fact, I’m sure this doggy will learn new tricks.
EDIT:
ZEB has just posted with another tactic as old as the alleged serpent in the garden of eden. The plain old, in a brown bag, LIE.
[quote]Cortes wrote:
I truly could not care less what you believe. However, the fact that you took my one little throwaway comment and made this much hay of its meaning and intent should maybe, possibly be an alert that you need to step back, calm down, and deeply examine your core assumptions, your biases, your hatred.
[/quote]
[quote]TheBodyGuard wrote:
I appreciate our sincerity but your reply is decidedly with a pro-Christian slant. I happen to find the following claims and arguments credible:
As much as I love my Jewish brothers, to use them as proof that Jesus isn’t the Christ, is…well a little off. If you look at the history of the septuagint and the MT scriptures, you’ll see that most of that stuff on the site is bogus. Jews didn’t like Christ for spreading Judaism, I’ll see if I can find that article about the Septuagint and the MT scriptures.
Says the man who writes yet one more attack post and not a word to say on topic. Same old act, different thread.
Seriously, are you ill?
I wrote an attack post?[/quote]
Shall I count the attack above as one more? Or, is asking if I am ill considered a good thing? This is what you’ve written to me in your prior two posts:
and…
Now you want people to believe that you don’t even realize that you’re doing it? Is that emotionally healthy? From these comments (and others) it is apparent that you have an agenda to belittle Christians.
One more attack.
And it continues…
And you end with an attack.
So you see when I give it back to you, it is well deserved. As I’ve said before you are sensitive and over react when it is you that is being castigated. But you seem to dish it out with relative ease. You are at odds with my behavior yet you give yourself a pass. Maybe it would help if you were more introspective?
I will say that while the others who are not Christian may attack God you always include the person as well as God in many of your attacks. Attacking people and then feigning as if it never happened. And I am not trying to antagonize you with this, just letting you know how you are perceived by me and some others. Some of the meeker Christians don’t seem to mind, no doubt they are stronger than I am, as I will not tolerate such nonsense.
The next time you are telling someone that you are just trying to learn and grow, look above, and keep in mind that from my perspective those are shallow words.
Are some of us so wrong to question it? These people are Professors of Religious Studies and Religions. Is it so unfair to wonder why such a muddy, confused, disputed record from the divine? [/quote]
Historical Critical method is…well a little bit inadequate to say the least.
[quote]TheBodyGuard wrote:
A long time ago, very long ago, there was a poster here named ZEB. ZEB appeared to be a humble sort of fellow, even to the point of claiming you could learn something from everyone, no matter their age or their experience level (I can provide that reference if necessary). ZEB even made a rather informative post about chinning that contained some decent advice.
Since that time, ZEB has aged. He now almost exclusively patrols PWI for anything that he does not agree with. He is even on another thread right now, attacking someone else and their opinions because of their perceived lack of experience, and expressly, their age. Just not the same guy is he?
Anyway, in the spirit of ZEB’s chin up post, I offer you ZEB’s manual for internet fighting. I do not offer this manual in the hopes that you will adopt his tactics, but in the hope that you will recognize the tactics and look thru the window into the soul of a man who has aged, is frustrated, thinks he knows everything and has just generally become intolerant to anything that doesn’t align with his religious or political beliefs. He is the caricature of the man standing on his lawn, shaking his fist at every passer-by, bitching and moaning, and lying.
Here are his tactics:
Obfuscation.
He rarely engages in the text book example of this because once you disagree with him, he rarely actually attempts to make a cogent point. However, all his other tactics are used in an attempt to obfuscate and avoid meaningful dialogue.
Quoting out of Context.
This is really a favorite of his. He’ll build a straw man (more on that later) and cherry pick a quote to feed his straw man. Also, in an attempt to make any reply to him damn near impossible, he will pick apart and respond to discrete sentences, rendering any response on the forum a jumbled confusion and more trouble than it’s worth.
He engages in the sentence by sentence reply not for an attempt at clarity, but to preclude you from rebutting his attacks and tactics. So desperate is his reach in the quoting out of context tactic, that he actually searched for a humorous post of mine from SAMA about making home porn, to make a “point” in this thread.
Ad Hominem. This is a favorite of his. It’s quite transparent and requires no further explanation. He’s employing this now in the Jihad thread. He’s attacking someone’s age and experience instead of addressing their arguments. He has also disdainfully labeled some of you here, “atheist” for no other reason than your views do not comport with his own. Since you do not believe in “God”, you surely cannot have a dialogue about God right?
Association Fallacy. He has done this several times in this thread.
Character Assassination. A favorite of cowards worldwide. ZEB even tries to bring to bear my “confession” (haha, lol I knew he’s like that) in the SAMA cheating thread to this thread. Hmmm.
Fundamental Attribution Error. This is a favorite of our Good Christian ZEB. ZEB will pull you into the mud with him, start rasslin with ya, and then turn around and yell for everyone to hear how muddy you are, while he himself is still covered in slime.
False Consensus Effect. This is illustrated where he attempts to bolster his attacks with the similar attacks of someone like Cortes. Remember in high school where one girl decided she didn’t like another girl anymore? What did she do? She attempted to enlist her girlfriends to disliking the girl. Once her girlfriends shared their disdain for the target of her hatred, the girl could then proclaim the target of her hatred, “unpopular”. ZEB still remembers his high school days quite well, in spite of his advanced age.
Straw Man. A favorite of his, requires no real explanation.
Now this is the “DaVinci Code” of ZEB’s arguments (I knew he’d appreciate the DaVinci Code reference). Don’t be confused! Some of these tactics blur from one to the other. He sometimes employs more than one at at time. But be assured, from henceforth, when ZEB responds with anything other than meritorious argument, I shall only reply by referencing from the above Instruction Book and link to this. Sometimes, it may become necessary to add to this Guide - in fact, I’m sure this doggy will learn new tricks. [/quote]
And yet more attacks from the king of logical fallacy and straw man arguments. And certainly the cut and paste king. A man who brags about striking women, cheating on his wife multiple times and threatening to beat people up on the Internet. And I might add his only notable contribution to T Nation is in the sex threads where he spends a good deal of his time writing things like “How To Make Your Own Home Porn In 21 Easy Lessons.” A man in his late 40’s prowling the sex threads–You’re a real champ and a great example to your kids.
And to top it all off he’s a sensitive little man who seems to feel pain when attacked but never remembers attacking. How convenient.
I guess I shall continue to respond to you IN KIND.
Are some of us so wrong to question it? These people are Professors of Religious Studies and Religions. Is it so unfair to wonder why such a muddy, confused, disputed record from the divine? [/quote]
Historical Critical method is…well a little bit inadequate to say the least. [/quote]
Is that all? A hit and run?
Remove bias, study the doctrines, scriptures, and the religions, myths and believes that spawned them.
Can you make your case for the divine Jesus without a one-liner? I’m looking, and I can’t see it. Help me.
Or can you just admit it’s strictly a matter of faith, and we cease and desist?
Jesus clearly differentiates himself from the father.[/quote]
Jesus says he is subordinate to the Father, not that he is different. However, Jesus says multiple times as well as the Apostles that he is G-d, and equal to the father. Jesus’ subordination is to the Father’s will, not in divinity. Jesus clearly states he is G-d when he says, before Abraham, I AM. Saying I AM can mean only one thing, that Jesus was claiming to be G-d.
[quote]
John 14: 10
No express claim to being the father, or G-d. In fact, can not I claim likewise that the “father is in me”? Do I not have a claim to be a son of God?[/quote]
No, John 3:16. Both, St. Peter and St. Thomas expresses the divinity of Jesus and never get a rebuttal from him that he is not Lord and God.
The distinguished part is that Jesus is subordinate to the Father, not that Jesus is not G-d.
Before Abraham, I AM. <—claim of divinity.
You have to take scripture as a totality, not proof text. Those text in harmony do not refute Jesus’ divinity but establish that because of the Father’s humanity, Jesus came to save the world. As well, if something is begotten in the biblical sense of the word then it’s referring to baby making. A dog begets puppies, a man begets children, &c. If the Father sent his only begotten Son, then the son would have to be divine as there is a large difference between making something and begetting it, begetting it means that something was taken from the Father in order to beget the Son.
[quote]
Are there any undisputed scriptural passages wherein Jesus himself proclaims himself to be God? [/quote]
John 8:58 says, “Amen, amen I say to you, before Abraham was made, I AM.” As well, as the entire book of John 8.
[quote]TheBodyGuard wrote:
A long time ago, very long ago, there was a poster here named ZEB. ZEB appeared to be a humble sort of fellow, even to the point of claiming you could learn something from everyone, no matter their age or their experience level (I can provide that reference if necessary). ZEB even made a rather informative post about chinning that contained some decent advice.
Since that time, ZEB has aged. He now almost exclusively patrols PWI for anything that he does not agree with. He is even on another thread right now, attacking someone else and their opinions because of their perceived lack of experience, and expressly, their age. Just not the same guy is he?
Anyway, in the spirit of ZEB’s chin up post, I offer you ZEB’s manual for internet fighting. I do not offer this manual in the hopes that you will adopt his tactics, but in the hope that you will recognize the tactics and look thru the window into the soul of a man who has aged, is frustrated, thinks he knows everything and has just generally become intolerant to anything that doesn’t align with his religious or political beliefs. He is the caricature of the man standing on his lawn, shaking his fist at every passer-by, bitching and moaning, and lying.
Here are his tactics:
Obfuscation.
He rarely engages in the text book example of this because once you disagree with him, he rarely actually attempts to make a cogent point. However, all his other tactics are used in an attempt to obfuscate and avoid meaningful dialogue.
Quoting out of Context.
This is really a favorite of his. He’ll build a straw man (more on that later) and cherry pick a quote to feed his straw man. Also, in an attempt to make any reply to him damn near impossible, he will pick apart and respond to discrete sentences, rendering any response on the forum a jumbled confusion and more trouble than it’s worth.
He engages in the sentence by sentence reply not for an attempt at clarity, but to preclude you from rebutting his attacks and tactics. So desperate is his reach in the quoting out of context tactic, that he actually searched for a humorous post of mine from SAMA about making home porn, to make a “point” in this thread.
Ad Hominem. This is a favorite of his. It’s quite transparent and requires no further explanation. He’s employing this now in the Jihad thread. He’s attacking someone’s age and experience instead of addressing their arguments. He has also disdainfully labeled some of you here, “atheist” for no other reason than your views do not comport with his own. Since you do not believe in “God”, you surely cannot have a dialogue about God right?
Association Fallacy. He has done this several times in this thread.
Character Assassination. A favorite of cowards worldwide. ZEB even tries to bring to bear my “confession” (haha, lol I knew he’s like that) in the SAMA cheating thread to this thread. Hmmm.
Fundamental Attribution Error. This is a favorite of our Good Christian ZEB. ZEB will pull you into the mud with him, start rasslin with ya, and then turn around and yell for everyone to hear how muddy you are, while he himself is still covered in slime.
False Consensus Effect. This is illustrated where he attempts to bolster his attacks with the similar attacks of someone like Cortes. Remember in high school where one girl decided she didn’t like another girl anymore? What did she do? She attempted to enlist her girlfriends to disliking the girl. Once her girlfriends shared their disdain for the target of her hatred, the girl could then proclaim the target of her hatred, “unpopular”. ZEB still remembers his high school days quite well, in spite of his advanced age.
Straw Man. A favorite of his, requires no real explanation.
Now this is the “DaVinci Code” of ZEB’s arguments (I knew he’d appreciate the DaVinci Code reference). Don’t be confused! Some of these tactics blur from one to the other. He sometimes employs more than one at at time. But be assured, from henceforth, when ZEB responds with anything other than meritorious argument, I shall only reply by referencing from the above Instruction Book and link to this. Sometimes, it may become necessary to add to this Guide - in fact, I’m sure this doggy will learn new tricks. [/quote]
And yet more attacks from the king of logical fallacy and straw man arguments.
[/quote]
Numbers 3 and 6 above.
[quote]ZEB wrote:
And certainly the cut and paste king. A man who brags about striking women, cheating on his wife multiple times and threatening to beat people up on the Internet.
[/quote]
6, 5, 2 (wasn’t my wife but don’t let the facts stand in the way), 1, 3, 4. Nice effort! You almost employed every single tactic in a single sentence! Bravo good sir! LOL
[quote]ZEB wrote:
And I might add his only notable contribution to T Nation is in the sex threads where he spends a good deal of his time writing things like “How To Make Your Own Home Porn In 21 Easy Lessons.”
[/quote]
2, 3, 4 and 5. Nice!
[quote]ZEB wrote:
A man in his late 40’s prowling the sex threads–You’re a real champ and a great example to your kids.
[/quote]
Kids in SAMA? Still shrill and histrionic are we? Numbers 3, 4 and 5.
[quote]ZEB wrote:
And to top it all off he’s a sensitive little man who seems to feel pain when attacked but never remembers attacking. How convenient.
[/quote]
This calls for the addition of Number 9. Lie. When you can find a post by me, attacking you, that precedes any attack from you to me, let us all know. We shall wait. Until then, thank you for adding the oldest in the book - as old and ancient as that old snake in the garden of eden, whispering into Eve’s ear LIE.
Jesus clearly differentiates himself from the father.[/quote]
Jesus says he is subordinate to the Father, not that he is different. However, Jesus says multiple times as well as the Apostles that he is G-d, and equal to the father. Jesus’ subordination is to the Father’s will, not in divinity. Jesus clearly states he is G-d when he says, before Abraham, I AM. Saying I AM can mean only one thing, that Jesus was claiming to be G-d.
[quote]
John 14: 10
No express claim to being the father, or G-d. In fact, can not I claim likewise that the “father is in me”? Do I not have a claim to be a son of God?[/quote]
No, John 3:16. Both, St. Peter and St. Thomas expresses the divinity of Jesus and never get a rebuttal from him that he is not Lord and God.
The distinguished part is that Jesus is subordinate to the Father, not that Jesus is not G-d.
Before Abraham, I AM. <—claim of divinity.
You have to take scripture as a totality, not proof text. Those text in harmony do not refute Jesus’ divinity but establish that because of the Father’s humanity, Jesus came to save the world. As well, if something is begotten in the biblical sense of the word then it’s referring to baby making. A dog begets puppies, a man begets children, &c. If the Father sent his only begotten Son, then the son would have to be divine as there is a large difference between making something and begetting it, begetting it means that something was taken from the Father in order to beget the Son.
[quote]
Are there any undisputed scriptural passages wherein Jesus himself proclaims himself to be God? [/quote]
John 8:58 says, “Amen, amen I say to you, before Abraham was made, I AM.” As well, as the entire book of John 8. [/quote]
Give me scripture from Jesus proclaiming his divinity. Do not give me other attributions. And then let’s discuss them.
John 1:1 - “In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.”
John 1:14 - “And the Word became flesh, and dwelt among us, and we beheld His glory, glory as of the only begotten from the Father, full of grace and truth.”
John 5:18 - “For this cause therefore the Jews were seeking all the more to kill Him, because He not only was breaking the Sabbath, but also was calling God His own Father, making Himself equal with God.”
John 8:24 - “I said therefore to you, that you shall die in your sins; for unless you believe that I am He, you shall die in your sins.”
Note: In the Greek, “He” is not there.
John 8:58 - “Jesus said to them, ‘Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was born, I am.’”
Exodus 3:14 - “And God said to Moses, ‘I AM WHO I AM’; and He said, Thus you shall say to the sons of Israel, â??I AM has sent me to you.â??”
John 10:30-33 - “I and the Father are one.” 31 The Jews took up stones again to stone Him. 32 Jesus answered them, “I showed you many good works from the Father; for which of them are you stoning Me?” 33 The Jews answered Him, “For a good work we do not stone You, but for blasphemy; and because You, being a man, make Yourself out to be God.”
John 20:28 - "Thomas answered and said to Him, “My Lord and my God!”
Col. 2:9 - “For in Him all the fullness of Deity dwells in bodily form.”
Phil. 2:5-8 - “Have this attitude in yourselves which was also in Christ Jesus, 6 who, although He existed in the form of God, did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped, 7 but emptied Himself, taking the form of a bond-servant, and being made in the likeness of men. 8 And being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross. 9 Therefore also God highly exalted Him, and bestowed on Him the name which is above every name, 10 that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of those who are in heaven, and on earth, and under the earth, 11 and that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.”
Heb. 1:8 - "But of the Son He says, “Thy throne, O God, is forever and ever, and the righteous scepter is the scepter of His kingdom.”
Quoted from Psalm 45:6, “Thy throne, O God, is forever and ever; a scepter of uprightness is the scepter of Thy kingdom.”
Jesus is worshipped - Jesus said to worship God only, yet He receives worship.
Matt. 4:10 - "Then Jesus said to him, 'Begone, Satan! For it is written, "You shall worship the Lord your God, and serve Him only.“â??”
2. Matt. 2:2 - “Where is He who has been born King of the Jews? For we saw His star in the east, and have come to worship Him.”
3. Matt. 2:11 - “And they came into the house and saw the Child with Mary His mother; and they fell down and worshiped Him; and opening their treasures they presented to Him gifts of gold and frankincense and myrrh.”
4. Matt. 14:33 - "And those who were in the boat worshiped Him, saying, “You are certainly Godâ??s Son!”
5. Matt. 28:9 - “And behold, Jesus met them and greeted them. And they came up and took hold of His feet and worshiped Him.”
6. John 9:35-38 - “Jesus heard that they had put him out; and finding him, He said, “Do you believe in the Son of Man?” 36 He answered and said, “And who is He, Lord, that I may believe in Him?” 37 Jesus said to him, “You have both seen Him, and He is the one who is talking with you.” 38 And he said, “Lord, I believe.” And he worshiped Him.”
7. Heb. 1:6 - “And when He again brings the first-born into the world, He says, ‘And let all the angels of God worship Him.’”
Jesus is prayed to
Acts 7:55-60 - “But being full of the Holy Spirit, he gazed intently into heaven and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing at the right hand of God; 56 and he said, “Behold, I see the heavens opened up and the Son of Man standing at the right hand of God.” 57 But they cried out with a loud voice, and covered their ears, and they rushed upon him with one impulse. 58 And when they had driven him out of the city, they began stoning him, and the witnesses laid aside their robes at the feet of a young man named Saul. 59 And they went on stoning Stephen as he called upon the Lord and said, “Lord Jesus, receive my spirit!” 60 And falling on his knees, he cried out with a loud voice, “Lord, do not hold this sin against them!” And having said this, he fell asleep.”
2. 1 Cor. 1:1-2 - “Paul, called as an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, and Sosthenes our brother, 2 to the church of God which is at Corinth, to those who have been sanctified in Christ Jesus, saints by calling, with all who in every place call upon the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, their Lord and ours.” (The phrase, “to call upon the name of the Lord” is a phrase used to designate prayer.)
1. 1 Kings 18:24 - “Then you call on the name of your god, and I will call on the name of the Lord, and the God who answers by fire, He is God.” And all the people answered and said, “That is a good idea.”
2. Zech. 13:9 - “And I will bring the third part through the fire, refine them as silver is refined, and test them as gold is tested. They will call on My name, and I will answer them; I will say, â??They are My people,â?? and they will say, â??The Lord is my God.â??”
3. Rom. 10:13-14 - “for ‘whoever will call upon the name of the Lord’ will be saved.” 14 How then shall they call upon Him in whom they have not believed? And how shall they believe in Him whom they have not heard?" (Paul is speaking of calling upon Jesus. (The phrase “Call upon the name of the Lord” is a quote from Joel 2:32)).
1. Joel 2:32 - “And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the LORD shall be delivered: for in Mount Zion and in Jerusalem shall be deliverance, as the LORD hath said, and in the remnant whom the LORD shall call.” (LORD here is YHWH, the name of God as revealed in Exodus 3:14. Therefore, this quote, dealing with God Himself is attributed to Jesus.)
First and Last
Isaiah 44:6 - “Thus says the Lord, the King of Israel and his Redeemer, the Lord of hosts: â??I am the first and I am the last, and there is no God besides Me.”
1. Rev. 1:17-18 - “Do not be afraid; I am the first and the last, 18 and the living One; and I was dead, and behold, I am alive forevermore, and I have the keys of death and of Hades.”
I’m not quite sure yet, and I’m not sure which forum should host it, but this may need it’s own thread. Anyway, in a single reply, ZEB has forced me to publish a new edition of the Davinci Code to unlocking his internet fight tactics. This is ZEB’s internet Kung Fu.
Here are his tactics:
Obfuscation.
He rarely engages in the text book example of this because once you disagree with him, he rarely actually attempts to make a cogent point. However, all his other tactics are used in an attempt to obfuscate and avoid meaningful dialogue.
This is really a favorite of his. He’ll build a straw man (more on that later) and cherry pick a quote to feed his straw man. Also, in an attempt to make any reply to him damn near impossible, he will pick apart and respond to discrete sentences, rendering any response on the forum a jumbled confusion and more trouble than it’s worth.
He engages in the sentence by sentence reply not for an attempt at clarity, but to preclude you from rebutting his attacks and tactics. So desperate is his reach in the quoting out of context tactic, that he actually searched for a humorous post of mine from SAMA about making home porn, to make a “point” in this thread.
Ad Hominem. This is a favorite of his. It’s quite transparent and requires no further explanation. He’s employing this now in the Jihad thread. He’s attacking someone’s age and experience instead of addressing their arguments. He has also disdainfully labeled some of you here, “atheist” for no other reason than your views do not comport with his own. Since you do not believe in “God”, you surely cannot have a dialogue about God right?
Character Assassination. A favorite of cowards worldwide. ZEB even tries to bring to bear my “confession” (haha, lol I knew he’s like that) in the SAMA cheating thread to this thread. Hmmm.
Fundamental Attribution Error. This is a favorite of our Good Christian ZEB. ZEB will pull you into the mud with him, start rasslin with ya, and then turn around and yell for everyone to hear how muddy you are, while he himself is still covered in slime.
False Consensus Effect. This is illustrated where he attempts to bolster his attacks with the similar attacks of someone like Cortes. Remember in high school where one girl decided she didn’t like another girl anymore? What did she do? She attempted to enlist her girlfriends to disliking the girl. Once her girlfriends shared their disdain for the target of her hatred, the girl could then proclaim the target of her hatred, “unpopular”. ZEB still remembers his high school days quite well, in spite of his advanced age.
Also called cherry picking, the enumeration of favorable circumstances, or as the philosopher Francis Bacon described it, counting the hits and forgetting the misses. For example, a state boasts of the Presidents it has produced, but is silent about its serial killers.
Non Sequitur.
This is another favorite of our Good Man. I’m surprised I missed it the first time as he has employed it consistently. For example, “Bodyguard wrote a primer (tongue in cheek) about home porn. Bodyguard is addicted to porn.” Or, “Bodyguard wrote a home porn primer on the adult section of an adult web site. Bodyguard is a great example to kids”.
Changing the Subject. This is used simultaneously with the other tactics. It’s the linchpin in his arsenal. Also commonly known as Digression, Red Herring, Misdirection, False Emphasis.
This tactic is generally used to avoid having to defend a claim. He reduces a thread to a series of personal attacks, thereby avoiding engaging in actual rebuttal. This tactic is diversionary in nature, and is often just obstructive, obtuse, or needling. For example, AEB has often quibbled in other threads about a poor analogy, or the grammar or spelling a person used. This tactic is an attempt to change the subject and make his target the object of ridicule (see number 7, False Consensus).
Failure to State:
If you make enough attacks, and ask enough questions, you may never have to actually define your own position on the topic. This is a ZEB keystone.
I’m quite certain this will require it’s own thread. And I’m quite certain ZEB will force me to further illustrate his tactics.
In case you’re waiting for ZEB to actually engage in the OP, don’t.
John 1:1 - “In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.”
John 1:14 - “And the Word became flesh, and dwelt among us, and we beheld His glory, glory as of the only begotten from the Father, full of grace and truth.”
John 5:18 - “For this cause therefore the Jews were seeking all the more to kill Him, because He not only was breaking the Sabbath, but also was calling God His own Father, making Himself equal with God.”
John 8:24 - “I said therefore to you, that you shall die in your sins; for unless you believe that I am He, you shall die in your sins.”
Note: In the Greek, “He” is not there.
John 8:58 - “Jesus said to them, ‘Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was born, I am.’”
Exodus 3:14 - “And God said to Moses, ‘I AM WHO I AM’; and He said, Thus you shall say to the sons of Israel, â??I AM has sent me to you.â??”
John 10:30-33 - “I and the Father are one.” 31 The Jews took up stones again to stone Him. 32 Jesus answered them, “I showed you many good works from the Father; for which of them are you stoning Me?” 33 The Jews answered Him, “For a good work we do not stone You, but for blasphemy; and because You, being a man, make Yourself out to be God.”
John 20:28 - "Thomas answered and said to Him, “My Lord and my God!”
Col. 2:9 - “For in Him all the fullness of Deity dwells in bodily form.”
Phil. 2:5-8 - “Have this attitude in yourselves which was also in Christ Jesus, 6 who, although He existed in the form of God, did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped, 7 but emptied Himself, taking the form of a bond-servant, and being made in the likeness of men. 8 And being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross. 9 Therefore also God highly exalted Him, and bestowed on Him the name which is above every name, 10 that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of those who are in heaven, and on earth, and under the earth, 11 and that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.”
Heb. 1:8 - "But of the Son He says, “Thy throne, O God, is forever and ever, and the righteous scepter is the scepter of His kingdom.”
Quoted from Psalm 45:6, “Thy throne, O God, is forever and ever; a scepter of uprightness is the scepter of Thy kingdom.”
Jesus is worshipped - Jesus said to worship God only, yet He receives worship.
Matt. 4:10 - "Then Jesus said to him, 'Begone, Satan! For it is written, "You shall worship the Lord your God, and serve Him only.“â??”
2. Matt. 2:2 - “Where is He who has been born King of the Jews? For we saw His star in the east, and have come to worship Him.”
3. Matt. 2:11 - “And they came into the house and saw the Child with Mary His mother; and they fell down and worshiped Him; and opening their treasures they presented to Him gifts of gold and frankincense and myrrh.”
4. Matt. 14:33 - "And those who were in the boat worshiped Him, saying, “You are certainly Godâ??s Son!”
5. Matt. 28:9 - “And behold, Jesus met them and greeted them. And they came up and took hold of His feet and worshiped Him.”
6. John 9:35-38 - “Jesus heard that they had put him out; and finding him, He said, “Do you believe in the Son of Man?” 36 He answered and said, “And who is He, Lord, that I may believe in Him?” 37 Jesus said to him, “You have both seen Him, and He is the one who is talking with you.” 38 And he said, “Lord, I believe.” And he worshiped Him.”
7. Heb. 1:6 - “And when He again brings the first-born into the world, He says, ‘And let all the angels of God worship Him.’”
Jesus is prayed to
Acts 7:55-60 - “But being full of the Holy Spirit, he gazed intently into heaven and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing at the right hand of God; 56 and he said, “Behold, I see the heavens opened up and the Son of Man standing at the right hand of God.” 57 But they cried out with a loud voice, and covered their ears, and they rushed upon him with one impulse. 58 And when they had driven him out of the city, they began stoning him, and the witnesses laid aside their robes at the feet of a young man named Saul. 59 And they went on stoning Stephen as he called upon the Lord and said, “Lord Jesus, receive my spirit!” 60 And falling on his knees, he cried out with a loud voice, “Lord, do not hold this sin against them!” And having said this, he fell asleep.”
2. 1 Cor. 1:1-2 - “Paul, called as an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, and Sosthenes our brother, 2 to the church of God which is at Corinth, to those who have been sanctified in Christ Jesus, saints by calling, with all who in every place call upon the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, their Lord and ours.” (The phrase, “to call upon the name of the Lord” is a phrase used to designate prayer.)
1. 1 Kings 18:24 - “Then you call on the name of your god, and I will call on the name of the Lord, and the God who answers by fire, He is God.” And all the people answered and said, “That is a good idea.”
2. Zech. 13:9 - “And I will bring the third part through the fire, refine them as silver is refined, and test them as gold is tested. They will call on My name, and I will answer them; I will say, â??They are My people,â?? and they will say, â??The Lord is my God.â??”
3. Rom. 10:13-14 - “for ‘whoever will call upon the name of the Lord’ will be saved.” 14 How then shall they call upon Him in whom they have not believed? And how shall they believe in Him whom they have not heard?" (Paul is speaking of calling upon Jesus. (The phrase “Call upon the name of the Lord” is a quote from Joel 2:32)).
1. Joel 2:32 - “And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the LORD shall be delivered: for in Mount Zion and in Jerusalem shall be deliverance, as the LORD hath said, and in the remnant whom the LORD shall call.” (LORD here is YHWH, the name of God as revealed in Exodus 3:14. Therefore, this quote, dealing with God Himself is attributed to Jesus.)
First and Last
Isaiah 44:6 - “Thus says the Lord, the King of Israel and his Redeemer, the Lord of hosts: â??I am the first and I am the last, and there is no God besides Me.”
1. Rev. 1:17-18 - “Do not be afraid; I am the first and the last, 18 and the living One; and I was dead, and behold, I am alive forevermore, and I have the keys of death and of Hades.” [/quote]
Thank you but I want scriptural attribution to Jesus himself proclaiming his divinity.
[quote]TheBodyGuard wrote:
Lie. When you can find a post by me, attacking you,[/quote]
LOL- - thank you. You’re getting all crazy again and I find that amusing. Scroll back about two posts from me to you. I just pointed out the specific attack lines that you used. And you’re actually saying it didn’t happen—LOL–Really? And what color is your world today?
In fact, you began the attacks way back in the other thread that we were on when you basically stated that whatever I said didn’t matter because I was a Christian. Is that supposed to be a compliment? Yeah I guess in your perverted mind it probably is. But where respectable people communicate, um not so much.
Come on you can’t be in your late 40’s no way. Is this TBG’s son? Better get off his screen name junior Daddy is going to be mad. Oh and what ever you do junior stay away from certain threads where your father stars as film maker and key advisor to the unsavory. LOL - And don’t ask what he’s doing with his camera EVER!!
LOL I was going to call you a block head but that just doesn’t say enough anymore. You’re more like some sort of deranged, overly sensitive, anti-Christian, porn loving, woman beating Internet tough guy weirdo. Yeah, I guess that sums it up. Now what word could I use for all of those? See the dilemma that I have? Hmm.
LOL - Post back soon I’m not done with you yet. Good is coming from all of this nonsense. And do you know what it is? Can you guess? The longer this goes the more of a gentleman that you are forced to act to the other Christians so as not to prove my point.
Are some of us so wrong to question it? These people are Professors of Religious Studies and Religions. Is it so unfair to wonder why such a muddy, confused, disputed record from the divine? [/quote]
Historical Critical method is…well a little bit inadequate to say the least. [/quote]
Is that all? A hit and run?
Remove bias, study the doctrines, scriptures, and the religions, myths and believes that spawned them.
Can you make your case for the divine Jesus without a one-liner? I’m looking, and I can’t see it. Help me.
Or can you just admit it’s strictly a matter of faith, and we cease and desist? [/quote]
Remove the study of the doctrine, the Bible, religion, and beliefs that spawned them?
Yeah, Jesus was a historical figure, not sure why you would exclude the Gospels as we have more manuscripts of the Gospel than any other document in the world.
But, anyway there was a few historians, I believe there was a Jewish one and a Roman one that both talked about Jesus. But, if you really want to know what’s happening don’t you think you should listen to those that saw it, than those that came a thousand years later and tried to teach it?
Jesus clearly differentiates himself from the father.[/quote]
Jesus says he is subordinate to the Father, not that he is different. However, Jesus says multiple times as well as the Apostles that he is G-d, and equal to the father. Jesus’ subordination is to the Father’s will, not in divinity. Jesus clearly states he is G-d when he says, before Abraham, I AM. Saying I AM can mean only one thing, that Jesus was claiming to be G-d.
[quote]
John 14: 10
No express claim to being the father, or G-d. In fact, can not I claim likewise that the “father is in me”? Do I not have a claim to be a son of God?[/quote]
No, John 3:16. Both, St. Peter and St. Thomas expresses the divinity of Jesus and never get a rebuttal from him that he is not Lord and God.
The distinguished part is that Jesus is subordinate to the Father, not that Jesus is not G-d.
Before Abraham, I AM. <—claim of divinity.
You have to take scripture as a totality, not proof text. Those text in harmony do not refute Jesus’ divinity but establish that because of the Father’s humanity, Jesus came to save the world. As well, if something is begotten in the biblical sense of the word then it’s referring to baby making. A dog begets puppies, a man begets children, &c. If the Father sent his only begotten Son, then the son would have to be divine as there is a large difference between making something and begetting it, begetting it means that something was taken from the Father in order to beget the Son.
[quote]
Are there any undisputed scriptural passages wherein Jesus himself proclaims himself to be God? [/quote]
John 8:58 says, “Amen, amen I say to you, before Abraham was made, I AM.” As well, as the entire book of John 8. [/quote]
Give me scripture from Jesus proclaiming his divinity. Do not give me other attributions. And then let’s discuss them.[/quote]
Thank you but I want scriptural attribution to Jesus himself proclaiming his divinity. [/quote]
This is the typical atheist play. Right, you’re an agnostic, I know, but you’re still using the atheist attack play book. Anyway, it’s the same old, same old. The implication is that Jesus Christ never said he was God it was others who attributed this to him. All you have to do is pick up a NT and read it BEFORE you attack it. Then you could answer your own question as to where Jesus Christ states that he IS God. After all you can sit right here on T Nation all day and ask questions about the Bible. But if you read it you would know the answers. And this is what I encouraged you to do on another thread if you recall. I don’t think you liked my advice much if I remember correctly.
I sure hope this helps you on your journey toward truth and understanding.
[quote]TheBodyGuard wrote:
Lie. When you can find a post by me, attacking you,[/quote]
LOL- - thank you. You’re getting all crazy again and I find that amusing. Scroll back about two posts from me to you. I just pointed out the specific attack lines that you used. And you’re actually saying it didn’t happen—LOL–Really? And what color is your world today?
In fact, you began the attacks way back in the other thread that we were on when you basically stated that whatever I said didn’t matter because I was a Christian. Is that supposed to be a compliment? Yeah I guess in your perverted mind it probably is. But where respectable people communicate, um not so much.
Come on you can’t be in your late 40’s no way. Is this TBG’s son? Better get off his screen name junior Daddy is going to be mad. Oh and what ever you do junior stay away from certain threads where your father stars as film maker and key advisor to the unsavory. LOL - And don’t ask what he’s doing with his camera EVER!!
LOL I was going to call you a block head but that just doesn’t say enough anymore. You’re more like some sort of deranged, overly sensitive, anti-Christian, porn loving, woman beating Internet tough guy weirdo. Yeah, I guess that sums it up. Now what word could I use for all of those? See the dilemma that I have? Hmm.
LOL - Post back soon I’m not done with you yet. Good is coming from all of this nonsense. And do you know what it is? Can you guess? The longer this goes the more of a gentleman that you are forced to act to the other Christians so as not to prove my point.
See that? God had a plan for this all along.
[/quote]
ZEB, do I have to enumerate those parts of your code you used above. Tell ya what. Do the following:
Find the post IN THIS THREAD where I attack you, that is NOT at any point preceded by an attack of your own. Show me that I attacked you first.
Next, find the post where I stated what you said doesn’t matter because you’re a Christian. In fact, find where I attacked you in the other thread, where you did not yet attack me first.
I’ve asked you this now, in several different ways, and you cannot produce. But you do have time to engage in an ad infinitum game of “no I didn’t, you did”.
For the record, you have used more than half of your TACTICS in just one post again. When you can actually post something that does not contain one of your TACTICS, maybe someone will listen.
LOL, the puppet thinks he is the puppeteer. The clown believes it is he, and not the mighty Lion that is the crowd pleaser. You silly man. Pinocchio? Is that you? Wooden boy?
LIE.