[quote]havoc501 wrote:
Angelbutt wrote:
havoc501 wrote:
well i want to see studies on disease where there is a seperation.i hear different studies saying meat did this or this,but i’m willing to bet anything the ppl who were being studied were eating grains as well as meat.so how is it determined meat as the culprit?
They probably were eating grains with their meat. But, they were likely eating more meat than is recommended and not enough grains and vegetables to balance it out. Afterall, it’s all about balance, anyway. If you can eat food with good parts to combat food with bad parts, risk of disease is diminished.
we were told sat. fats found in beef and eggs causes high cholesterol,yet we now know that high fat,high protein diets do exactly the opposite.harvards study on atkins v.s. the ama diet.
The average American diet sucks!Refined grains, trans fats, lack of vitamins and minerals… Remember, the Atkins Diet excludes all crap like cake, soda, donuts, cookies, potato chips, french fries, instant macaroni and cheese, and crackers … foods that are high in empty calories, and such things as saturated fat, and trans fats, and added sugars. So a comparison of the Atkins Diet to the American Diet is not a good indication of the “evils” of carbohydrates. It is a good indication of how replacing shitty food that Americans consume regularly with proteins and vegetables can make a difference. But there are currently no studies that support the long-term safety of the Atkins Diet.
Also, diets high in unsaturated fat lower cholesterol, not just fat in general.
i want to see trial done where ppl ate meat and veg. and the other group ate grains and veg. and a group that ate both.
Well, when you throw in vegetables (which are considered carbohydrates albeit poor sources), you change the risks of a diet high in meat consumption. Many studies have been done on vegetarian populations and have shown that most vegetarians are just as healthy and, most often, healthier than meat eaters. However, vegetarians typically lead healthy lifestyles, too. Regardless, there diets certainly aren’t killing them.
and inuits lived healthy lives for a very long time.i’ve hear talk of the health of the polynesians(sp?)went down hill after the americanization to there culture and the introduction of grains.
What kind of grains? Refined? Because Americanization would entail eating more refined grains than whole grains.
and are there any vitamins or minerals that are found in grains that can’t be obtained from vegetables and meat?
…not that I know of. Vegetables are a pretty good source of the micronutrients. Meat - not so much, except for iron and the B vitamins, but grains have those, too (in smaller concentrations).
Beta-glucans, a type of soluble fiber, are found predominantly in oats and barley. It is what lowers cholesterol.
Grains may have unique phytochemicals, but I cannot be certain.
if not,then the grain carbs should be deemed inferior because of their side effects.migraines are now being found to caused by gluten,an off shoot of celiacs disease
…inferior for people with Celiac disease. For those of us who don’t have the disorder, or have other variations of maldigestion of whole grains, why exclude them? There is nothing intrinsically harmful about them, unless they are refined and/or eaten in excess.
.kids with epilpsy who didn’t respond to meds, reduced or stopped their seizures on a ketogenic diet.
Most people don’t have epilepsy and therefore wouldn’t benefit from a ketogenic diet.
scores of ppl who on atkins and similar diets feeling relief from arthritis while on a high fat diet.
I’m willing to guess their increase in fat accompanied an increase in essential fatty acids, which reduce inflammation.
more and more data coming in all the time on the ills of grains.
Such as? I’m not challenging you, just genuinely curious.
larry scott and alot of old time bbers talk of rheo blairs heavy cream conncoctions and how they grew like babies.
Well, yeah eating a lot of calories (i.e. cream) is going to make you grow.
That doesn’t make it healthy.
i remember reading something about a certain powerlifting or olympic lifting team that ate a high fat diet.when asked why and if they were worried about the health of the athletes they simply said we are only concerned about results and that the teams lifts did better on a high fat diet.
Ah! That doesn’t mean they weren’t harming themselves. Big lifts aren’t always an indication of healthiness.
i don’t know the answer,but i know this nutrition stuff is interesting as hell.
I agree.
well we can’t be sure of the studies macro breakdown,so we can’t assume that they were eating a higher meat to carb ratio.but that does bring up another point.whether the grain consumption was lower,the same,or greater,most likely it was coming from a refined source.which was at the time still deemed ok.you must remember when the anti fat campaign started white bread,potatos,white rice,etc.were deemed ok.the craze was started in the 70’s so these studies that made ppl think fat was bad had to happen before then or at least at that time.we now know there bad but they were considered ok back then.i think these were assumed to be harmless so it must be the meat.this is also when the started pushing margarine.
harvards study of atkins was put up against the american heart assoc. diet.atkins outperformed the diet that the association for heart care deemed good.it beat the aha diet by lowering bad chol. and raising good chol. better than the aha diet.chol.which is the yardstick they use.
i’d have to see the vegetarian studies.again,when they compared them to the so called meat eaters,i’m sure bad carbs were being eaten aswell.
most of the population doesn’t have epilpsy.but epilipsy is a brain ailment,and cutting carbs,it’s prefered fuel source,helped children when carbs and meds failed them.
i also have a friend who is a type 2 diabetic who did great on atkins.got of alot of his meds.had a heart attack before the diabetes diagnosis.got off of his statin drugs aw well.
when i spoke of the lifters i was getting back to the point of the post.this was some years ago,when fat was bad,and they went against the grain(pun intended)and used i high fat diet because it seemed to work better.it was to show gains could be made without carbs.
have you heard of doug kaufman?he has some interesting thoughts on carbs.maybe a little fanatical but it’s intetesting.he has a show called know the cause.
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I just wanted to quote this long-ass post!!
Angelbutt - nice arguements, although a couple of points stick in my mind:
Firstly, low carb diets, including the high fat varieties, have been shown to improve lipid profiles, and reduce high blood pressure, thereby reducing some of the coronry risks you raised. I know these indicators aren’t the be all and end all of heart health, but improving these certainly isn’t going to hurt anyone.
Secondly, are the cases of colon cancer etc in the large meating eating families due to the large amounts of meat, or the their low fibre diets?
Apologies if you’ve discussed these already. Work is getting in the way of me posting on T-Nation.
To the guys using the Anabolic Diet as an arguement against carbs, it is not an anti-carb diet. It is merely a controlled carb diet. It is more to do with timing you carbs than eliminating them all together. If you re-read the Anabolic Solution, Dr D states that he believes Atkins style diets (ie low carb all the time) to be very catabolic. Something to think about.
