See, maybe I do not help little brown babies but at least I do not make them orphans or destroy their water supply,
or make it next to imposible for them to get medical aid, or make their country a training ground for 4th generation warfare or nation building…
Nor do I nor most of the other posters here, dickhead. Remember? “Nations don’t commit atrocities; INVIDUALS do.” We here bear only minimal --if any – responsibility for what Bush or some soldier does, right? So why don’t you get busy writing to Bush, and leave us the fuck alone?
[/quote]
Normally I´d agree, but you are the one trying to shame me with things that happened 60 years ago while not showing an opunce of shame for the thinhgs happening now.
Also JeffR assured me that Americans do not fear their government because the people rule, so how can all of this not be happening in your name?
[quote]ephrem wrote:
…so why dÃd the US government think it was best to attack Iraq instead of capturing Bin Laden?
[/quote]
They tried to capture OBL but he got away to Pakistan. Invading Pakistan to catch one man seems like a bad idea.
Depose a dictator in Iraq to try to introduce democracy to the Middle East and begin a long Middle East makeover was determined to be the best choice because we were in a low grade war with Iraq for 12 years.
I would have preferred invading Saudi Arabia but there was no justification, same as Iran.
We need an oil rich, democratic state in the Middle East to show that there are alternatives to radical Islam and dictatorship.
[quote]Chushin wrote:
DrSkeptix wrote:
orion wrote:
wukey wrote:
i’m going to go out on a limb here and say i’m on orions side (side is a poor choice of words though).
firstly i see a person, not a nationality. and i’d prefer to associate his nationality with Wolfgang Amadeus Mozart, Sigmund Freud or Arnold Schwarzenegger.
Was this intended as an ironic post, perhaps?
Lets examine Orion’s prideful list and consider which were expelled by Austrians–good Austrians like Schuschnig and Hitler:
Freud, Adler, Kokoschka, Schonberg, Menger (the son), von Mises, Hayek, Schumpeter, Popper, Wittgenstein, Godel, Schrodinger, Wiesenthal…
(Jung was Swiss and most of the remainder were, or course, not alive to witness Austrian pride in their accomplishments.)
Whether American, or indeed Austrian, where one takes pride can it shine unalloyed to shame?
Whorion’s “cherry-picking” of parts of posts that he feels he can respond to, while ignoring anything he has no answer for – like the post above – have convinced me of what a waste of time “dialogue” is with him.
I’m done. [/quote]
There are posts that are so stupid that I I ahve no idea how to respond to them.
If discerning between post that have some point they are trying to make and others that are simply mindless humbug I am cherry picking, even worse, I am discriminating.
[quote]orion wrote:
Chushin wrote:
DrSkeptix wrote:
orion wrote:
wukey wrote:
i’m going to go out on a limb here and say i’m on orions side (side is a poor choice of words though).
firstly i see a person, not a nationality. and i’d prefer to associate his nationality with Wolfgang Amadeus Mozart, Sigmund Freud or Arnold Schwarzenegger.
Was this intended as an ironic post, perhaps?
Lets examine Orion’s prideful list and consider which were expelled by Austrians–good Austrians like Schuschnig and Hitler:
Freud, Adler, Kokoschka, Schonberg, Menger (the son), von Mises, Hayek, Schumpeter, Popper, Wittgenstein, Godel, Schrodinger, Wiesenthal…
(Jung was Swiss and most of the remainder were, or course, not alive to witness Austrian pride in their accomplishments.)
Whether American, or indeed Austrian, where one takes pride can it shine unalloyed to shame?
Whorion’s “cherry-picking” of parts of posts that he feels he can respond to, while ignoring anything he has no answer for – like the post above – have convinced me of what a waste of time “dialogue” is with him.
I’m done.
There are posts that are so stupid that I I ahve no idea how to respond to them.
If discerning between post that have some point they are trying to make and others that are simply mindless humbug I am cherry picking, even worse, I am discriminating.
There, I said it.
[/quote]
And I say this,that your post was stupid and I nevertheless responded to it. I did so because of the irony, and the error you committed: a total lack of self-examination.
These gentleman you site–many not Austrian, by the way, but Czechs, and Galician Jews, and “fellow travelers”–are the pride of Europe. But the historical details make your post so much more poignant; one can’t claim the glory without the shame of the past.
WIthout this reflection, what are you? A moralizer without scruples? A gasbag? Can you not recognize that no one lives in a black/white world; without context the moralizer has lost his suasion.
There is not an American I know who is without shame. It will be for us, here, to decide how to undo whatever injustices of the last 6 years. That is our burden.
Show a little respect toward the individual here, and we may show a little respect in turn.
How stupid was that? Stupid enough to ignore, I suppose.
so you justify doing some bad shit by saying that some other people did some even badder shit before you?
No.
But we DO expect the assholes who did the “badder shit” to show a little humility and to NOT take a self-righteous, pompous, arrogant attitude toward us.[/quote]
Now that you mention humility in this thread it has made me realise that this is something rather important to the original question.
If some Americans showed a little more humility they may endear themselves to people outsidethe US more, but with some Americans making comments like;
We are the best
We have the best army
We have the biggest economy
We can go kick anyones ass
We saved your ass in WWII
I think if the Americans who chant out those types of statements showed a little more humility there would be less negative feeling towards Americans in Europe.
[quote]Zap Branigan wrote:
Sloth wrote:
ephrem wrote:
…so why dÃd the US government think it was best to attack Iraq instead of capturing Bin Laden?
Instead of?
Yes, it is a false choice indicating the questioners bias. I should not have bothered to tryt and answer it reasonably.[/quote]
…not in the least, but i’m glad you did anyway. Admitting that the US attacked Iraq for economic reasons rather than revenge is honest, and i appreciate that…
America’s Image Slips, But Allies Share U.S. Concerns Over Iran, Hamas
…
America’s global image has again slipped and support for the war on terrorism has declined even among close U.S. allies like Japan. The war in Iraq is a continuing drag on opinions of the United States, not only in predominantly Muslim countries but in Europe and Asia as well. And despite growing concern over Iran’s nuclear ambitions, the U.S. presence in Iraq is cited at least as often as Iran - and in many countries much more often - as a danger to world peace.
A year ago, anti-Americanism had shown some signs of abating, in part because of the positive feelings generated by U.S. aid for tsunami victims in Indonesia and elsewhere. But favorable opinions of the United States have fallen in most of the 15 countries surveyed. Only about a quarter of the Spanish public (23%) expresses positive views of the U.S., down from 41% last year; America’s image also has declined significantly in India (from 71% to 56%) and Indonesia (from 38% to 30%).
…
The survey shows that the Iraq war continues to exact a toll on America’s overall image and on support for the struggle against terrorism. Majorities in 10 of 14 foreign countries surveyed say that the war in Iraq has made the world a more dangerous place. In Great Britain, America’s most important ally in Iraq, 60% say the war has made the world more dangerous, while just half that number (30%) feel it has made the world safer.
Moreover, even as concerns about Iran have increased, somewhat more Britons believe that the U.S. military presence in Iraq represents a great danger to stability in the Middle East and world peace than say that about the current government in Iran (by 41%-34%). In Spain, fully 56% say the U.S. military presence in Iraq is a great danger to the stability of the Middle East and world peace; just 38% regard the current government in Iran in the same way. Among America’s traditional allies, Germany is the only country where more people say Iran is a great danger than offer the same view of the U.S. military presence in Iraq (by 51%-40%).
…
Reports about U.S. prison abuses at Abu Ghraib and Guantanamo have attracted broad attention in Western Europe and Japan - more attention, in fact, than in the United States. Roughly three-quarters of Americans (76%) say they have heard of the prison abuses, compared with about 90% or more in the four Western European countries and Japan.
A 47-nation survey finds global public opinion increasingly wary of the world’s dominant nations and disapproving of their leaders. Anti-Americanism is extensive, as it has been for the past five years. At the same time, the image of China has slipped significantly among the publics of other major nations. Opinion about Russia is mixed, but confidence in its president, Vladimir Putin, has declined sharply. In fact, the Russian leader’s negatives have soared to the point that they mirror the nearly worldwide lack of confidence in George W. Bush.
Global distrust of American leadership is reflected in increasing disapproval of the cornerstones of U.S. foreign policy. Not only is there worldwide support for a withdrawal of U.S. troops from Iraq, but there also is considerable opposition to U.S. and NATO operations in Afghanistan. Western European publics are at best divided about keeping troops there. In nearly every predominantly Muslim country, overwhelming majorities want U.S. and NATO troops withdrawn from Afghanistan as soon as possible. In addition, global support for the U.S.-led war on terrorism ebbs ever lower. And the United States is the nation blamed most often for hurting the world’s environment, at a time of rising global concern about environmental issues
…
In the face of strong criticisms of its foreign policy, the U.S. is cited in many countries about as often as the U.N. as the entity that should be responsible for dealing with the problems that confront the world. This is particularly the case among people who are most concerned about the spread of nuclear weapons. But when it comes to AIDS and the gap between rich and poor, many who see these as important threats look to their own countries to provide solutions.
…
Anti-Americanism: Deeper But Not Wider
In the current poll, majorities in 25 of the 47 countries surveyed express positive views of the U.S. Since 2002, however, the image of the United States has declined in most parts of the world. Favorable ratings of America are lower in 26 of 33 countries for which trends are available.
…
For all of the bad news, however, the global survey of 47 nations, conducted throughout the world, reveals a more complex picture of opinions of the United States.
…
While opinions of Americans have fallen in most Western European countries, they remain generally positive. In every Western European country surveyed, far more people express positive opinions of Americans than they do of the U.S.; in Germany, for instance, 63% say they have a positive opinion of Americans compared with just 30% who rate the U.S. positively.
In fact, in many countries, the American people get better ratings than does the U.S. generally. Latin America is a consistent exception to this rule. In this region, Americans get about the same ratings as their country; either both are mostly favorable, as in Venezuela and Peru, or both are quite low, as in Argentina.
…
Opinions that Influence America’s Image
This is by far the largest global survey Pew has conducted since 2002. As such, it provides a broad perspective on anti-Americanism, documenting the nature and breadth of negative perceptions of the U.S.
Among key U.S. allies in Western Europe, the view that the U.S. acts unilaterally is an opinion that has tracked closely with America’s overall image over the past five years. Ironically, the belief that the United States does not take into account the interests of other countries in formulating its foreign policy is extensive among the publics of several close U.S. allies. No fewer than 89% of the French, 83% of Canadians and 74% of the British express this opinion.
U.S. policies also are widely viewed as increasing the gap between rich nations and poor nations. This is even the case in several countries where the U.S. is generally well regarded. In addition, this is one of the few criticisms of the U.S. that is widely shared around the world and with which a plurality of Americans (38%) agree.
…
Critiques of the U.S. are not confined to its policies, however. In much of the world there is broad and deepening dislike of American values and a global backlash against the spread of American ideas and customs. Majorities or pluralities in most countries surveyed say they dislike American ideas about democracy �?? and this sentiment has increased in most regions since 2002. However, sizable majorities in most African nations �?? as well as in Israel, South Korea and Japan �?? continue to express positive views of the U.S. approach to democracy. In addition, a small plurality in China says they like rather than dislike American ideas about democracy (48% to 36%).
Public rejection of American democracy in most countries may in part reflect opinions about the way in which the United States has implemented its pro-democracy agenda, as well as America’s democratic values. Majorities in 43 of 47 countries surveyed �?? including 63% in the United States �?? say that the U.S. promotes democracy mostly where it serves its interests, rather than promoting it wherever it can.
The poll also finds negative attitudes toward American ways of doing business. Dislike of the U.S. approach has deepened. However, Muslim countries in the Middle East are a notable exception, despite their generally poor opinion of the U.S. As many as 71% of Kuwaitis, 63% of Lebanese, and even 40% of Palestinians say they like the American way of doing business. But the greatest admirers of the American approach to business continue to be in Africa, where huge majorities in countries such as Kenya and Nigeria endorse it.
While many around the world fault American ideals, there is still considerable admiration for U.S. technology and a strong appetite for its cultural exports. In 42 of 46 foreign countries surveyed, majorities say they admire U.S. technological and scientific advances. In Russia, however, a majority (53%) says nyet to American scientific achievements. Similarly, in most parts of the world, majorities report liking American music, movies and television. However, there is greater dissent with regard to these pop culture exports; majorities in several predominantly Muslim countries, including Bangladesh, Pakistan, Turkey, Jordan and Egypt, say they dislike American music, movies and television. Indians and Russians also express negative views of U.S. cultural exports.
Despite near universal admiration for U.S. technology and a strong appetite for its cultural exports in most parts of the world, large proportions in most countries think it is bad that American ideas and customs are spreading to their countries. The percentage expressing disapproval has increased in many countries since 2002 �?? including Great Britain (by 17 percentage points), Germany (14 points) and Canada (13 points). Israel, Ethiopia, Ivory Coast and Nigeria are the only countries (aside from the U.S.) in which majorities say they like the spread of American customs.
As noted, however, the U.S. is not alone in drawing the increasing ire of people in other countries. The poll also finds flagging views of China, an emerging superpower. Favorable views of China have fallen in Western Europe �?? particularly in Spain, Germany and France. And while China’s image is generally positive in Asia, it has grown somewhat more negative in India and much more negative in Japan, where unfavorable opinions of China now outnumber positive ones by more than two-to-one (67%-29%).
…
Russian President Putin inspires much more confidence from his people than does President Bush. More than eight-in-ten Russians (84%) say they have a lot or some confidence in Putin’s approach to world affairs; just 45% of Americans say the same abut Bush.
If some Americans showed a little more humility they may endear themselves to people outsidethe US more, but with some Americans making comments like;
We are the best
We have the best army
We have the biggest economy
We can go kick anyones ass
We saved your ass in WWII
While I agree with your sentiment (some of us can be really arrogant), most of what you’ve written above is FACT.
Perhaps it is THAT that bothers you?[/quote]
You are the best - debatable.
You got the bestest army. - Well, the biggest one by far, that’s for sure. Best army is debatable, since somehow you keep losing those wars, even to shithole third world countries.
Biggest economy - check.
You can kick anyone’s ass - Chuckle. You can’t. Let’s see how tough you are if Iran somehow does aquire the bomb.
…WWII blablamasturbate… - no comment.
so you justify doing some bad shit by saying that some other people did some even badder shit before you?
No.
But we DO expect the assholes who did the “badder shit” to show a little humility and to NOT take a self-righteous, pompous, arrogant attitude toward us.
Now that you mention humility in this thread it has made me realise that this is something rather important to the original question.
If some Americans showed a little more humility they may endear themselves to people outsidethe US more, but with some Americans making comments like;
We are the best
We have the best army
We have the biggest economy
We can go kick anyones ass
We saved your ass in WWII
I think if the Americans who chant out those types of statements showed a little more humility there would be less negative feeling towards Americans in Europe.
[/quote]
You’re asking Americans to have the moral philosphy of earth worms, who coil up when touched. Humility is NOT a virtue. Pride, rational pride, is. We are proud that we are the one who have kept the rest of the world from sinking back into the barbaric swamps from which it came. You now want us to adopt the ‘humility’ of swamp-cultures that consider being ‘meek and humble’ a virtue? How does one save a world by being some meek and humble earth worm?