Why Did God Create......

[pat]

[quote]Zooguido wrote:

[quote]pat wrote:

[quote]TigerTime wrote:

[quote]pat wrote:

[quote]TigerTime wrote:

[quote]Cortes wrote:

[quote]TigerTime wrote:

[quote]Cortes wrote:

[quote]TigerTime wrote:

[quote]Cortes wrote:

[quote]TigerTime wrote:

[quote]Cortes wrote:

[quote]TigerTime wrote:
I’m back. Let’s get right into it.

Why do whales have pelvic bones? [/quote]

Alien technology.

Next.[/quote]

Not quite. Why did God find it necessary to give whales, an animal with no need for a pelvic bone, a pelvic bone?

More interestingly, the human sacrum and coccyx appear as several vertebrae fused together. If we are the result of creation, why did God create us in such a way that we would look as though we evolved from monkeys? Why not just give us a solid sacrum, for example. [/quote]

I got no problem with evolution. [/quote]

Then how do you reconcile the theory of evolution with the story of creation in Genesis?[/quote]

Sorry, I’m not seeing the problem here.

What issue do you have with it?
[/quote]

If Adam and Eve were created as is, then there was no evolution. [/quote]

It’s a story, not a scientific model. You think a goat herder 2000 years ago would be receptive to hearing the intricacies of single-nucleotide polymorphisms?

[/quote]

Then God is a rather malevolent being for not correcting his vast array of worshipers who think otherwise. Though, you think God would have the foresight to at least give a passing mention in the bible that when he says “created” he really means “kicked off a process that would result in ‘man’ after several millions of years”… and given that god is all powerful, why would he bother with this process when he knows the result? He could just whip us up and skip all the monkey business… no pun intended.
which brings up another question, why did God never give us any information about the universe that we didn’t already know to be factual? Further still, the answers he offers for these “at the time unknowns” are so convoluted and vague that instead of hinting us in the right direction they actually took us backwards and resulted in violent wars and genocide (many of which God personally commanded to happen).

Ultimately, the answers in the bible given in genesis in no way logically lead to what science has found to be true and it can only be viewed as such while working backwards ex post-facto.

[/quote]

The bible isn’t a science book or a history book. The creation stories have important messages and truths for all people.
God also was kind enough to provide us math, science and history so we can know more about the world we live in with out having to refer to a religious text to do it.

Are you sure you read the bible? It sure doesn’t sound like…
[/quote]

Right, because as we all know it’s impossible to have both read the bible AND disagree with it. rolls eyes
[/quote]
You can disagree with it all you want, that’s not the issue. It just seems you have a weak grasp on the subject matter.

What you’ve said isn’t a counter argument. The argument you’re responding to already addresses the points you’re making. These “important messages” didn’t even hint us in the right direction, they did the opposite. If God is all knowing, then he was aware this would happen before he did it, meaning he did it intentionally which makes sense considering he made no effort to correct his followers when they later denied evolution, despite it being true. Your God is malevolent.

That, or fictional. [/quote]

I wasn’t really counter arguing your position. You disagree with the way God did something, ok. I don’t see anything malevolent. Further it’s a complete misunderstanding of the time and place of the occurrences.

You don’t have to agree. It’s not important as a matter of faith to have a quantum mechanical view of how the this universe came to be. God did give us tools to find this stuff out, it’s called math and science. If He did not want people to know these things he would not have given them the tools to discover them. I think your thinking about this in two dimensional silo’s.

You like things to be direct and beyond question, so do I. That’s not the way God chose to do it, so what?
I didn’t realize he was to take orders from you.

If you want to discuss the existence vs. non-existence (fake) of God, please proceed to the ‘Physics of the afterlife’ thread where that is being discussed. Read at least 5 pages back in to the thread you so don’t repeat what’s already been said. I don’t see the point in repeating all of it.

Archimedes gave us mathematics.
Newton gave us classical mechanics.
Galileo gave us science.

Get it right.

Idiot.[/quote]

Oh they invented it? Or discovered it? Drive by idiot.

[pat]

[quote]forlife wrote:

[quote]pat wrote:

[quote]forlife wrote:

[quote]pat wrote:

[quote]forlife wrote:

[quote]pat wrote:

[quote]kamui wrote:

So far, your arguments have only solidified my belief that Christianity is little more than mythology.[/quote]

maybe.

but mythology is an attempt to express deep,intuitive truthes about the cosmos and the human condition in a narrative and metaphorical way.
and that, my fellow atheist, is definitely not worthless.

no amount of science and reason will ever abolish our mythological tendencies. And when we try to repress or supress these tendencies, we usually fall from mythology into ideology.
which is horribly worse.

Mythology is art alone it’s a comment on current event and eternal human struggles. Whoop-tie do. Religion is not that, religion is a way to communicate with God, not just a bunch of irrelevant old stories. It’s a way to communicate to the universe’s or existences’ creator. Religious texts offer back ground and information into that relationship.
You cannot simply relegate it to mythology because mythology is irrelevant. But whether you like it or not, religion is damn relevant.
[/quote]

Religion is only different from mythology to the extent that it is factually correct. And as you have pointed out, the bible is far from factually correct. To the extent it gets the facts wrong, it is a book of myths and nothing more.[/quote]

Since when the bible claim to be the world almanac? It’s not a history book. Is what it teaches wrong? [/quote]

If it’s not a history book, then the cast of characters it tells stories about, from Moses to Abraham to Paul to Jesus are all questionable. If these people didn’t actually exist, if the words ascribed to them weren’t actually spoken, and if the events ascribed to them didn’t actually happen, the bible is nothing more than another mythical book.[/quote]

Well then prove none of it happened…Should be easy enough.[/quote]

I was just pointing out why it actually is important to know whether or not biblical events are historically accurate. You stated earlier that the bible isn’t a history book, but the factual accuracy of that history is the only thing that would differentiate it from myth.[/quote]

It’s not a history book, that doesn’t mean it doesn’t contain historical things, just nailing down historical facts perfectly isn’t the Bible’s job. Those stories tell us something about people, about God and his relationship to those people. Historical facts are the job of archaeologists and historians both who believe these people to have existed as best as can be known.

[pat]

[quote]TigerTime wrote:

[quote]kamui wrote:
TigerTime’s journey remind me of this little story :

[quote]
A terrible storm came into a town and local officials sent out an emergency warning that the riverbanks would soon overflow and flood the nearby homes. They ordered everyone in the town to evacuate immediately.

A faithful Christian man heard the warning and decided to stay, saying to himself, ?I will trust God and if I am in danger, then God will send a divine miracle to save me.?

The neighbors came by his house and said to him, ?We?re leaving and there is room for you in our car, please come with us!? But the man declined. ?I have faith that God will save me.?

As the man stood on his porch watching the water rise up the steps, a man in a canoe paddled by and called to him, ?Hurry and come into my canoe, the waters are rising quickly!? But the man again said, ?No thanks, God will save me.?

The floodwaters rose higher pouring water into his living room and the man had to retreat to the second floor. A police motorboat came by and saw him at the window. ?We will come up and rescue you!? they shouted. But the man refused, waving them off saying, ?Use your time to save someone else! I have faith that God will save me!?

The flood waters rose higher and higher and the man had to climb up to his rooftop.

A helicopter spotted him and dropped a rope ladder. A rescue officer came down the ladder and pleaded with the man, “Grab my hand and I will pull you up!” But the man STILL refused, folding his arms tightly to his body. ?No thank you! God will save me!?

Shortly after, the house broke up and the floodwaters swept the man away and he drowned.

When in Heaven, the man stood before God and asked, ?I put all of my faith in You. Why didn?t You come and save me??

And God said, ?Son, I sent you a warning. I sent you a car. I sent you a canoe. I sent you a motorboat. I sent you a helicopter. What more were you looking for?? [/quote][/quote]

The only thing God has sent me is the bible. Which, even if the book made sense, is a stupid way to go about this.

I know, I know, the bible is a complex book and only APPEARS to be horse shit when looked at incorrectly. You can say the exact same thing about ANYTHING, so you’ll understand if that argument is less than convincing to me. [/quote]

Oh brother. There are thousands of books outside the bible. You’re just being lazy…

[Brother_Chris]

[quote]Gumpshmee wrote:
Screw that question… I wrote a reply clarifying it and it got eaten by some bad internets.

Instead let me ask a different personal question open to anyone. At what moment in your life did you begin having faith in your present belief system, and why.

Also you have 13337 posts… which is awesome!!! haha[/quote]

Once I saw through logic, reason, and facts that God existed, Jesus was a real person, and he established the Catholic Church.

[pat]

[quote]Gumpshmee wrote:
@Push

Thank you for directing me. My search terms were linking me to questions about what natural disasters meant regarding the status of various culture’s in the christian god’s eyes. I found a lot of racist stuff.

The answers that they provide seem to square with the belief in a just god. Not that “just” can be consistent across the board for everything god is said to have done or commanded.

This all of course relies on the primary assumption that this specific god exists. Another thing I’m not sure about is if this is considered a priori or a posteriori in the official christian understanding.

I figure the answer is probably a priori.
[/quote]

It is a priori.

[Brother_Chris]

[quote]Voluminous wrote:
Why do you think God exists ?

Why do you think Satan exists ?

Is it not possible it’s all just one big lie.

I actually upon TC advising me of it’s existence (Not god’s) read his 2010 speech, PWI it would seem fit his category of people perfectly.

Link to Speech;

http://www.T-Nation.com/testosterone-magazine-624#speech-to-the-graduates-2010

[/quote]

Sure it “could” be all one big lie. Matters what you mean by “could,” but it is interesting though, that what people consider the most corrupt organization has been going for around 2000 years and hasn’t changed its teachings. Because usually corrupt people change their stance with the sway of society.

Kind of goes with that something someone said about doing that one thing with that something for a certain amount of time.

And, how come you have a preconceived notion that all religious people have preconceived notions? Maybe they are like me that started from scratch and used observation, history, reason, and logic and then accepted those “notions,” much after the fact.

[pat]

[quote]Voluminous wrote:

[quote]forlife wrote:
I remember reading that story as a believer. One I see it a little differently.

The guy’s problem was that he believed in a god in the first place. Had he used common sense, he would have jumped in his neighbor’s car long before the canoe, motorboat, and helicopter came along.

All of these rescue attempts are explainable without needing to believe in a supernatural being, so why believe in the first place?[/quote]

Belief is the suspension of free thinking and the embracing of whatever it is you have embraced.

If someone were to question such a belief people lash out for daring to question them !

[/quote]

Belief is simply an assertion that something is true with out knowing all the facts. Almost every moment of your life is consumed by belief…

For instance, people on the east coast believed they were safe from earthquakes…They aren’t.

[pat]

[quote]Gumpshmee wrote:

Yeah there’s a lot of argumentum ad antiquitatem flying around. But whatevs.
[/quote]

Your determination for this is based on…?

[TigerTime]

[quote]pat wrote:
Oh? Prove it.
You’re the one that told me you spent time on faith when you were 10 and 13. I never once said anything about you being 18 except that you have not even begun to experience real life. Which is true.
You have me confused with somebody else. I haven’t harped on your age. But you have brought it up numerous times…
[/quote]

All right, let me just ask you point blank; as far as your concerned, does my age affect my ability to be correct?

Hey you said you spent about 5 hours on it. I guess you were expecting like a buzz or something. If your looking to get high, smoke a joint.
You have some bizarre expectation that are going to suddenly feel different and happy? That’s just weird. I really can’t imagine how you got that idea.

5 hours? Where are you getting this number from?
So, if you can’t feel or hear God and his bible doesn’t match up with history or science… what exactly are you going on? What has YOU convinced he exists and is the very same God of the bible?

Fine, but not getting high on God is not a reason to think he doesn’t exist. But I have heard dumber reasons…

I was 10 at the time. I had very little scientific or philosophical knowledge. Being able to hear or feel God was all I had to go on. I’ve looked at your God in terms of science and reason since then and found it just as underwhelming.

Not necessarily but can you name any other man or man made thing that has influenced the world to such a measure? I sure as hell can’t. If it were truly meaningless it would be powerless as well. Meaningless things have no power.

… That’s clearly a logical fallacy. Christianity’s influence on the world doesn’t confirm or deny its legitimacy. Somebody has to be number one, it happened to be you guys (but it looks like not for long).

I’ll put it to you this way. If I had a kid when I was your age, he’d be old enough to drink legally.

[TigerTime]

[quote]pat wrote:

[quote]TigerTime wrote:

[quote]kamui wrote:
TigerTime’s journey remind me of this little story :

[quote]
A terrible storm came into a town and local officials sent out an emergency warning that the riverbanks would soon overflow and flood the nearby homes. They ordered everyone in the town to evacuate immediately.

A faithful Christian man heard the warning and decided to stay, saying to himself, ?I will trust God and if I am in danger, then God will send a divine miracle to save me.?

The neighbors came by his house and said to him, ?We?re leaving and there is room for you in our car, please come with us!? But the man declined. ?I have faith that God will save me.?

As the man stood on his porch watching the water rise up the steps, a man in a canoe paddled by and called to him, ?Hurry and come into my canoe, the waters are rising quickly!? But the man again said, ?No thanks, God will save me.?

The floodwaters rose higher pouring water into his living room and the man had to retreat to the second floor. A police motorboat came by and saw him at the window. ?We will come up and rescue you!? they shouted. But the man refused, waving them off saying, ?Use your time to save someone else! I have faith that God will save me!?

The flood waters rose higher and higher and the man had to climb up to his rooftop.

A helicopter spotted him and dropped a rope ladder. A rescue officer came down the ladder and pleaded with the man, “Grab my hand and I will pull you up!” But the man STILL refused, folding his arms tightly to his body. ?No thank you! God will save me!?

Shortly after, the house broke up and the floodwaters swept the man away and he drowned.

When in Heaven, the man stood before God and asked, ?I put all of my faith in You. Why didn?t You come and save me??

And God said, ?Son, I sent you a warning. I sent you a car. I sent you a canoe. I sent you a motorboat. I sent you a helicopter. What more were you looking for?? [/quote][/quote]

The only thing God has sent me is the bible. Which, even if the book made sense, is a stupid way to go about this.

I know, I know, the bible is a complex book and only APPEARS to be horse shit when looked at incorrectly. You can say the exact same thing about ANYTHING, so you’ll understand if that argument is less than convincing to me. [/quote]

Oh brother. There are thousands of books outside the bible. You’re just being lazy…[/quote]

Like the ones Forlife listed, for example? What exactly is your point here?

[Zooguido]

[quote]pat wrote:

[quote]Zooguido wrote:

[quote]pat wrote:

[quote]TigerTime wrote:

[quote]pat wrote:

[quote]TigerTime wrote:

[quote]Cortes wrote:

[quote]TigerTime wrote:

[quote]Cortes wrote:

[quote]TigerTime wrote:

[quote]Cortes wrote:

[quote]TigerTime wrote:

[quote]Cortes wrote:

[quote]TigerTime wrote:
I’m back. Let’s get right into it.

Why do whales have pelvic bones? [/quote]

Alien technology.

Next.[/quote]

Not quite. Why did God find it necessary to give whales, an animal with no need for a pelvic bone, a pelvic bone?

More interestingly, the human sacrum and coccyx appear as several vertebrae fused together. If we are the result of creation, why did God create us in such a way that we would look as though we evolved from monkeys? Why not just give us a solid sacrum, for example. [/quote]

I got no problem with evolution. [/quote]

Then how do you reconcile the theory of evolution with the story of creation in Genesis?[/quote]

Sorry, I’m not seeing the problem here.

What issue do you have with it?
[/quote]

If Adam and Eve were created as is, then there was no evolution. [/quote]

It’s a story, not a scientific model. You think a goat herder 2000 years ago would be receptive to hearing the intricacies of single-nucleotide polymorphisms?

[/quote]

Then God is a rather malevolent being for not correcting his vast array of worshipers who think otherwise. Though, you think God would have the foresight to at least give a passing mention in the bible that when he says “created” he really means “kicked off a process that would result in ‘man’ after several millions of years”… and given that god is all powerful, why would he bother with this process when he knows the result? He could just whip us up and skip all the monkey business… no pun intended.
which brings up another question, why did God never give us any information about the universe that we didn’t already know to be factual? Further still, the answers he offers for these “at the time unknowns” are so convoluted and vague that instead of hinting us in the right direction they actually took us backwards and resulted in violent wars and genocide (many of which God personally commanded to happen).

Ultimately, the answers in the bible given in genesis in no way logically lead to what science has found to be true and it can only be viewed as such while working backwards ex post-facto.

[/quote]

The bible isn’t a science book or a history book. The creation stories have important messages and truths for all people.
God also was kind enough to provide us math, science and history so we can know more about the world we live in with out having to refer to a religious text to do it.

Are you sure you read the bible? It sure doesn’t sound like…
[/quote]

Right, because as we all know it’s impossible to have both read the bible AND disagree with it. rolls eyes
[/quote]
You can disagree with it all you want, that’s not the issue. It just seems you have a weak grasp on the subject matter.

What you’ve said isn’t a counter argument. The argument you’re responding to already addresses the points you’re making. These “important messages” didn’t even hint us in the right direction, they did the opposite. If God is all knowing, then he was aware this would happen before he did it, meaning he did it intentionally which makes sense considering he made no effort to correct his followers when they later denied evolution, despite it being true. Your God is malevolent.

That, or fictional. [/quote]

I wasn’t really counter arguing your position. You disagree with the way God did something, ok. I don’t see anything malevolent. Further it’s a complete misunderstanding of the time and place of the occurrences.

You don’t have to agree. It’s not important as a matter of faith to have a quantum mechanical view of how the this universe came to be. God did give us tools to find this stuff out, it’s called math and science. If He did not want people to know these things he would not have given them the tools to discover them. I think your thinking about this in two dimensional silo’s.

You like things to be direct and beyond question, so do I. That’s not the way God chose to do it, so what?
I didn’t realize he was to take orders from you.

If you want to discuss the existence vs. non-existence (fake) of God, please proceed to the ‘Physics of the afterlife’ thread where that is being discussed. Read at least 5 pages back in to the thread you so don’t repeat what’s already been said. I don’t see the point in repeating all of it.

Archimedes gave us mathematics.
Newton gave us classical mechanics.
Galileo gave us science.

Get it right.

Idiot.[/quote]

Oh they invented it? Or discovered it? Drive by idiot.
[/quote]

It’s impossible to “discover” a systematic thought process and method of solving problems and/or creating hypotheses that you develop inside your head. You could say that I’m saying they “invented” it, yes. It’s impossible to discover an “idea” unless it’s already written down and you happen to come across it on a pamphlet or sheet of paper. Even then, you’re not discovering an idea. Someone already went through the time to come to those conclusions and write them down.

You don’t make any sense.

[Zooguido]

Unless, of course, you’re a creationist that believes all ideas, actions, and/or feelings come through divine providence.

[Voluminous]

[quote]pat wrote:

Belief is simply an assertion that something is true with out knowing all the facts. Almost every moment of your life is consumed by belief…

For instance, people on the east coast believed they were safe from earthquakes…They aren’t.[/quote]

Hmmmm I take your point.

Perhaps my point would be better placed in specific circumstances.

As in religion cannot be proved (or disproved some would say)

So yes Belief is simply an assertion that something is true with out knowing all the facts - however ferociousness in which people defend a religious belief is quite astounding.

All you can know is you don’t know everything. I may well be wrong and God exists and I leave that possibility open - if religious people did the same in reverse the world would be alot quieter place.

[pat]

[quote]Zooguido wrote:

[quote]pat wrote:

[quote]Zooguido wrote:

[quote]pat wrote:

[quote]TigerTime wrote:

[quote]pat wrote:

[quote]TigerTime wrote:

[quote]Cortes wrote:

[quote]TigerTime wrote:

[quote]Cortes wrote:

[quote]TigerTime wrote:

[quote]Cortes wrote:

[quote]TigerTime wrote:

[quote]Cortes wrote:

[quote]TigerTime wrote:
I’m back. Let’s get right into it.

Why do whales have pelvic bones? [/quote]

Alien technology.

Next.[/quote]

Not quite. Why did God find it necessary to give whales, an animal with no need for a pelvic bone, a pelvic bone?

More interestingly, the human sacrum and coccyx appear as several vertebrae fused together. If we are the result of creation, why did God create us in such a way that we would look as though we evolved from monkeys? Why not just give us a solid sacrum, for example. [/quote]

I got no problem with evolution. [/quote]

Then how do you reconcile the theory of evolution with the story of creation in Genesis?[/quote]

Sorry, I’m not seeing the problem here.

What issue do you have with it?
[/quote]

If Adam and Eve were created as is, then there was no evolution. [/quote]

It’s a story, not a scientific model. You think a goat herder 2000 years ago would be receptive to hearing the intricacies of single-nucleotide polymorphisms?

[/quote]

Then God is a rather malevolent being for not correcting his vast array of worshipers who think otherwise. Though, you think God would have the foresight to at least give a passing mention in the bible that when he says “created” he really means “kicked off a process that would result in ‘man’ after several millions of years”… and given that god is all powerful, why would he bother with this process when he knows the result? He could just whip us up and skip all the monkey business… no pun intended.
which brings up another question, why did God never give us any information about the universe that we didn’t already know to be factual? Further still, the answers he offers for these “at the time unknowns” are so convoluted and vague that instead of hinting us in the right direction they actually took us backwards and resulted in violent wars and genocide (many of which God personally commanded to happen).

Ultimately, the answers in the bible given in genesis in no way logically lead to what science has found to be true and it can only be viewed as such while working backwards ex post-facto.

[/quote]

The bible isn’t a science book or a history book. The creation stories have important messages and truths for all people.
God also was kind enough to provide us math, science and history so we can know more about the world we live in with out having to refer to a religious text to do it.

Are you sure you read the bible? It sure doesn’t sound like…
[/quote]

Right, because as we all know it’s impossible to have both read the bible AND disagree with it. rolls eyes
[/quote]
You can disagree with it all you want, that’s not the issue. It just seems you have a weak grasp on the subject matter.

What you’ve said isn’t a counter argument. The argument you’re responding to already addresses the points you’re making. These “important messages” didn’t even hint us in the right direction, they did the opposite. If God is all knowing, then he was aware this would happen before he did it, meaning he did it intentionally which makes sense considering he made no effort to correct his followers when they later denied evolution, despite it being true. Your God is malevolent.

That, or fictional. [/quote]

I wasn’t really counter arguing your position. You disagree with the way God did something, ok. I don’t see anything malevolent. Further it’s a complete misunderstanding of the time and place of the occurrences.

You don’t have to agree. It’s not important as a matter of faith to have a quantum mechanical view of how the this universe came to be. God did give us tools to find this stuff out, it’s called math and science. If He did not want people to know these things he would not have given them the tools to discover them. I think your thinking about this in two dimensional silo’s.

You like things to be direct and beyond question, so do I. That’s not the way God chose to do it, so what?
I didn’t realize he was to take orders from you.

If you want to discuss the existence vs. non-existence (fake) of God, please proceed to the ‘Physics of the afterlife’ thread where that is being discussed. Read at least 5 pages back in to the thread you so don’t repeat what’s already been said. I don’t see the point in repeating all of it.

Archimedes gave us mathematics.
Newton gave us classical mechanics.
Galileo gave us science.

Get it right.

Idiot.[/quote]

Oh they invented it? Or discovered it? Drive by idiot.
[/quote]

It’s impossible to “discover” a systematic thought process and method of solving problems and/or creating hypotheses that you develop inside your head. You could say that I’m saying they “invented” it, yes. It’s impossible to discover an “idea” unless it’s already written down and you happen to come across it on a pamphlet or sheet of paper. Even then, you’re not discovering an idea. Someone already went through the time to come to those conclusions and write them down.

You don’t make any sense.[/quote]

And your to dumb to discuss anything with if this is the best you can do…‘systematic thought process’…LOL!

[forlife]

[quote]pat wrote:

[quote]forlife wrote:

[quote]pat wrote:

[quote]forlife wrote:

[quote]pat wrote:

[quote]forlife wrote:

[quote]pat wrote:

[quote]kamui wrote:

So far, your arguments have only solidified my belief that Christianity is little more than mythology.[/quote]

maybe.

but mythology is an attempt to express deep,intuitive truthes about the cosmos and the human condition in a narrative and metaphorical way.
and that, my fellow atheist, is definitely not worthless.

no amount of science and reason will ever abolish our mythological tendencies. And when we try to repress or supress these tendencies, we usually fall from mythology into ideology.
which is horribly worse.

Mythology is art alone it’s a comment on current event and eternal human struggles. Whoop-tie do. Religion is not that, religion is a way to communicate with God, not just a bunch of irrelevant old stories. It’s a way to communicate to the universe’s or existences’ creator. Religious texts offer back ground and information into that relationship.
You cannot simply relegate it to mythology because mythology is irrelevant. But whether you like it or not, religion is damn relevant.
[/quote]

Religion is only different from mythology to the extent that it is factually correct. And as you have pointed out, the bible is far from factually correct. To the extent it gets the facts wrong, it is a book of myths and nothing more.[/quote]

Since when the bible claim to be the world almanac? It’s not a history book. Is what it teaches wrong? [/quote]

If it’s not a history book, then the cast of characters it tells stories about, from Moses to Abraham to Paul to Jesus are all questionable. If these people didn’t actually exist, if the words ascribed to them weren’t actually spoken, and if the events ascribed to them didn’t actually happen, the bible is nothing more than another mythical book.[/quote]

Well then prove none of it happened…Should be easy enough.[/quote]

I was just pointing out why it actually is important to know whether or not biblical events are historically accurate. You stated earlier that the bible isn’t a history book, but the factual accuracy of that history is the only thing that would differentiate it from myth.[/quote]

It’s not a history book, that doesn’t mean it doesn’t contain historical things, just nailing down historical facts perfectly isn’t the Bible’s job. Those stories tell us something about people, about God and his relationship to those people. Historical facts are the job of archaeologists and historians both who believe these people to have existed as best as can be known.[/quote]

But what is historical and what is fiction? If Jesus wasn’t actually resurrected, that is a really important fact to know.

[pat]

[quote]TigerTime wrote:

[quote]pat wrote:

[quote]TigerTime wrote:

[quote]kamui wrote:
TigerTime’s journey remind me of this little story :

[quote]
A terrible storm came into a town and local officials sent out an emergency warning that the riverbanks would soon overflow and flood the nearby homes. They ordered everyone in the town to evacuate immediately.

A faithful Christian man heard the warning and decided to stay, saying to himself, ?I will trust God and if I am in danger, then God will send a divine miracle to save me.?

The neighbors came by his house and said to him, ?We?re leaving and there is room for you in our car, please come with us!? But the man declined. ?I have faith that God will save me.?

As the man stood on his porch watching the water rise up the steps, a man in a canoe paddled by and called to him, ?Hurry and come into my canoe, the waters are rising quickly!? But the man again said, ?No thanks, God will save me.?

The floodwaters rose higher pouring water into his living room and the man had to retreat to the second floor. A police motorboat came by and saw him at the window. ?We will come up and rescue you!? they shouted. But the man refused, waving them off saying, ?Use your time to save someone else! I have faith that God will save me!?

The flood waters rose higher and higher and the man had to climb up to his rooftop.

A helicopter spotted him and dropped a rope ladder. A rescue officer came down the ladder and pleaded with the man, “Grab my hand and I will pull you up!” But the man STILL refused, folding his arms tightly to his body. ?No thank you! God will save me!?

Shortly after, the house broke up and the floodwaters swept the man away and he drowned.

When in Heaven, the man stood before God and asked, ?I put all of my faith in You. Why didn?t You come and save me??

And God said, ?Son, I sent you a warning. I sent you a car. I sent you a canoe. I sent you a motorboat. I sent you a helicopter. What more were you looking for?? [/quote][/quote]

The only thing God has sent me is the bible. Which, even if the book made sense, is a stupid way to go about this.

I know, I know, the bible is a complex book and only APPEARS to be horse shit when looked at incorrectly. You can say the exact same thing about ANYTHING, so you’ll understand if that argument is less than convincing to me. [/quote]

Oh brother. There are thousands of books outside the bible. You’re just being lazy…[/quote]

Like the ones Forlife listed, for example? What exactly is your point here?[/quote]

Sure you could check those books out as well…
My point is simply this. You want God to be obvious to you in a way you’ll get with out you having to lift a finger to do it. On the other hand, billions of people already believe in God and have a relationship with him with out Him having to do anything special for them.

If you want to know there is volumes of information. There is so much material out there that if a single person dedicated his life to studying only that then it would take a thousand life spans to take it all in.
Hell, if you were really into archaeology you could go to the Holy Land and participate in one of many digs. You can go Israel, France, Portugal, Italy, etc. All these places where significant religious events have occurred. You could study numerology and observe historical cycles and how they coinside with Biblical numerology. And that’s just a shred of the academic stuff. You can drive to your local library and check out a pickup truck full of books on faith, faith and reason, faith and science, Religions of the world, etc. You can drive to a number of churches in your area and discuss all your questions with a pastor, I am sure most of them would be happy to speak to you.
Have you done any of that? No.
You saw a movie and a speech, and didn’t “feel” anything, that’s it.
It seems pretty clear you’ve spent more time studying atheist propaganda than you have regarding faith of God.

[pat]

[quote]forlife wrote:
But what is historical and what is fiction? If Jesus wasn’t actually resurrected, that is a really important fact to know.[/quote]

Well if he didn’t then, like St. Paul said, we’re wasting our time.

If you were convinced God existed and everything about Jesus is true, would you change anything about yourself?

[Zooguido]

[quote]pat wrote:

[quote]Zooguido wrote:

[quote]pat wrote:

[quote]Zooguido wrote:

[quote]pat wrote:

[quote]TigerTime wrote:

[quote]pat wrote:

[quote]TigerTime wrote:

[quote]Cortes wrote:

[quote]TigerTime wrote:

[quote]Cortes wrote:

[quote]TigerTime wrote:

[quote]Cortes wrote:

[quote]TigerTime wrote:

[quote]Cortes wrote:

[quote]TigerTime wrote:
I’m back. Let’s get right into it.

Why do whales have pelvic bones? [/quote]

Alien technology.

Next.[/quote]

Not quite. Why did God find it necessary to give whales, an animal with no need for a pelvic bone, a pelvic bone?

More interestingly, the human sacrum and coccyx appear as several vertebrae fused together. If we are the result of creation, why did God create us in such a way that we would look as though we evolved from monkeys? Why not just give us a solid sacrum, for example. [/quote]

I got no problem with evolution. [/quote]

Then how do you reconcile the theory of evolution with the story of creation in Genesis?[/quote]

Sorry, I’m not seeing the problem here.

What issue do you have with it?
[/quote]

If Adam and Eve were created as is, then there was no evolution. [/quote]

It’s a story, not a scientific model. You think a goat herder 2000 years ago would be receptive to hearing the intricacies of single-nucleotide polymorphisms?

[/quote]

Then God is a rather malevolent being for not correcting his vast array of worshipers who think otherwise. Though, you think God would have the foresight to at least give a passing mention in the bible that when he says “created” he really means “kicked off a process that would result in ‘man’ after several millions of years”… and given that god is all powerful, why would he bother with this process when he knows the result? He could just whip us up and skip all the monkey business… no pun intended.
which brings up another question, why did God never give us any information about the universe that we didn’t already know to be factual? Further still, the answers he offers for these “at the time unknowns” are so convoluted and vague that instead of hinting us in the right direction they actually took us backwards and resulted in violent wars and genocide (many of which God personally commanded to happen).

Ultimately, the answers in the bible given in genesis in no way logically lead to what science has found to be true and it can only be viewed as such while working backwards ex post-facto.

[/quote]

The bible isn’t a science book or a history book. The creation stories have important messages and truths for all people.
God also was kind enough to provide us math, science and history so we can know more about the world we live in with out having to refer to a religious text to do it.

Are you sure you read the bible? It sure doesn’t sound like…
[/quote]

Right, because as we all know it’s impossible to have both read the bible AND disagree with it. rolls eyes
[/quote]
You can disagree with it all you want, that’s not the issue. It just seems you have a weak grasp on the subject matter.

What you’ve said isn’t a counter argument. The argument you’re responding to already addresses the points you’re making. These “important messages” didn’t even hint us in the right direction, they did the opposite. If God is all knowing, then he was aware this would happen before he did it, meaning he did it intentionally which makes sense considering he made no effort to correct his followers when they later denied evolution, despite it being true. Your God is malevolent.

That, or fictional. [/quote]

I wasn’t really counter arguing your position. You disagree with the way God did something, ok. I don’t see anything malevolent. Further it’s a complete misunderstanding of the time and place of the occurrences.

You don’t have to agree. It’s not important as a matter of faith to have a quantum mechanical view of how the this universe came to be. God did give us tools to find this stuff out, it’s called math and science. If He did not want people to know these things he would not have given them the tools to discover them. I think your thinking about this in two dimensional silo’s.

You like things to be direct and beyond question, so do I. That’s not the way God chose to do it, so what?
I didn’t realize he was to take orders from you.

If you want to discuss the existence vs. non-existence (fake) of God, please proceed to the ‘Physics of the afterlife’ thread where that is being discussed. Read at least 5 pages back in to the thread you so don’t repeat what’s already been said. I don’t see the point in repeating all of it.

Archimedes gave us mathematics.
Newton gave us classical mechanics.
Galileo gave us science.

Get it right.

Idiot.[/quote]

Oh they invented it? Or discovered it? Drive by idiot.
[/quote]

It’s impossible to “discover” a systematic thought process and method of solving problems and/or creating hypotheses that you develop inside your head. You could say that I’m saying they “invented” it, yes. It’s impossible to discover an “idea” unless it’s already written down and you happen to come across it on a pamphlet or sheet of paper. Even then, you’re not discovering an idea. Someone already went through the time to come to those conclusions and write them down.

You don’t make any sense.[/quote]

And your to dumb to discuss anything with if this is the best you can do…‘systematic thought process’…LOL![/quote]

Yes…Instead of just letting your emotions rule you like they do in the Catholic Church…LOL.

Not to mention you faggots imprisoned Galileo and feared the general public’s acquisition of knowledge. Grats on impeding our civilization’s progress and advancement in technology, science, and equality for 2000 years.

[forlife]

[quote]pat wrote:

[quote]forlife wrote:
But what is historical and what is fiction? If Jesus wasn’t actually resurrected, that is a really important fact to know.[/quote]

Well if he didn’t then, like St. Paul said, we’re wasting our time.

If you were convinced God existed and everything about Jesus is true, would you change anything about yourself?[/quote]

Exactly. So knowing what specifically in the bible is real and what is made up is extremely important. Many biblical scholars believe that Jesus was not in fact resurrected from the dead.

At one point I was convinced god existed and everything about Jesus was true, and I did my best to follow what I had been taught was god’s will for my life.

I would still do that, only I wouldn’t place any trust in other people’s interpretations of god’s will for my life. I would need to hear that directly from god, and in a reliable manner that ruled out alternate explanations.