…I wasn’t always this sceptical (sic) of Christianity. If your God exists, he made me this way…
[/quote]
[/quote]
Well, it’s true. Had I felt God’s touch in that moment I would be where you are. My suspension of disbelief would be permanent. No matter how false the bible seemed I would insist it was just being interpreted wrong because I could FEEL God. Is this not what it means to have a close personal relationship with God? Don’t you, as a Christian, Feel God at all times?
[quote]TigerTime wrote:
^ This is exactly what I’m talking about. Why does God leave his followers to argue amongst themselves about what God means in a particular passage? Don’t you find it strange? You all already believe in him, so why doesn’t he at least tell his followers how to interpret his book? [/quote]
Well he gave us an authority, the Church. The Church is the bulwark and pillar of truth. The truth will set you free. So, what does the Church have to say about this matter.
That the reason why each verse doesn’t have a definite interpretation? Scripture is too deep to just have a definite interpretation. Every verse has basic interpretation divided into four different ways: literal, allegorical, moral, and heavenly.
Then there is the fact that humans have free will and the ability to reason. Further, the Bible was written for baptized Christians those who already held to the tenets of the faith. They didn’t need to figure out what to do and how to do it in the basic sense, the Apostles already taught them.
[/quote]
How can we be certain that over 2000 years, nobody pulled anyone’s leg about anything in one particular religious organization, and then at the same time have the faculties to dispute or question any self-styled “expert” or official?
[/quote]
Screw that question… I wrote a reply clarifying it and it got eaten by some bad internets.
Instead let me ask a different personal question open to anyone. At what moment in your life did you begin having faith in your present belief system, and why.
Also you have 13337 posts… which is awesome!!! haha
[quote]kamui wrote:
TigerTime’s journey remind me of this little story :
[quote]
A terrible storm came into a town and local officials sent out an emergency warning that the riverbanks would soon overflow and flood the nearby homes. They ordered everyone in the town to evacuate immediately.
A faithful Christian man heard the warning and decided to stay, saying to himself, ?I will trust God and if I am in danger, then God will send a divine miracle to save me.?
The neighbors came by his house and said to him, ?We?re leaving and there is room for you in our car, please come with us!? But the man declined. ?I have faith that God will save me.?
As the man stood on his porch watching the water rise up the steps, a man in a canoe paddled by and called to him, ?Hurry and come into my canoe, the waters are rising quickly!? But the man again said, ?No thanks, God will save me.?
The floodwaters rose higher pouring water into his living room and the man had to retreat to the second floor. A police motorboat came by and saw him at the window. ?We will come up and rescue you!? they shouted. But the man refused, waving them off saying, ?Use your time to save someone else! I have faith that God will save me!?
The flood waters rose higher and higher and the man had to climb up to his rooftop.
A helicopter spotted him and dropped a rope ladder. A rescue officer came down the ladder and pleaded with the man, “Grab my hand and I will pull you up!” But the man STILL refused, folding his arms tightly to his body. ?No thank you! God will save me!?
Shortly after, the house broke up and the floodwaters swept the man away and he drowned.
When in Heaven, the man stood before God and asked, ?I put all of my faith in You. Why didn?t You come and save me??
And God said, ?Son, I sent you a warning. I sent you a car. I sent you a canoe. I sent you a motorboat. I sent you a helicopter. What more were you looking for?? [/quote][/quote]
I remember reading that story as a believer. One I see it a little differently.
The guy’s problem was that he believed in a god in the first place. Had he used common sense, he would have jumped in his neighbor’s car long before the canoe, motorboat, and helicopter came along.
All of these rescue attempts are explainable without needing to believe in a supernatural being, so why believe in the first place?
Mythology is art alone it’s a comment on current event and eternal human struggles. Whoop-tie do. Religion is not that, religion is a way to communicate with God, not just a bunch of irrelevant old stories. It’s a way to communicate to the universe’s or existences’ creator. Religious texts offer back ground and information into that relationship.
You cannot simply relegate it to mythology because mythology is irrelevant. But whether you like it or not, religion is damn relevant.
[/quote]
Religion is only different from mythology to the extent that it is factually correct. And as you have pointed out, the bible is far from factually correct. To the extent it gets the facts wrong, it is a book of myths and nothing more.
[quote]pushharder wrote:
An excerpt from that article reminded me of out Tigger:
“The problem of humanity has never been the lack of revelation, but rather pride and the refusal of grace. People do not respond to the amount of revelation they already have; they know what to do, but refuse to do it.”[/quote]
If that were the case, honest disagreement on pivotal doctrines wouldn’t exist among believers. Clearly, that isn’t the case.
My path according to Mormonism is very different from my path according to Catholicism, my path according to Calvinism, my path according to Judaism, or my path according to Hinduism.
“Oh, but religion X (which just happens to be my religion) is TRUE, and everybody else is deceived and misled! Everyone receives revelation (which just happens to confirm my particular beliefs), but they ignore the true word of god and choose to believe in FALSE revelation. And how do I know it’s false? Because it isn’t what I believe!!!”
[quote]forlife wrote:
I remember reading that story as a believer. One I see it a little differently.
The guy’s problem was that he believed in a god in the first place. Had he used common sense, he would have jumped in his neighbor’s car long before the canoe, motorboat, and helicopter came along.
All of these rescue attempts are explainable without needing to believe in a supernatural being, so why believe in the first place?[/quote]
Belief is the suspension of free thinking and the embracing of whatever it is you have embraced.
If someone were to question such a belief people lash out for daring to question them !
[quote]kamui wrote:
TigerTime’s journey remind me of this little story :
[quote]
A terrible storm came into a town and local officials sent out an emergency warning that the riverbanks would soon overflow and flood the nearby homes. They ordered everyone in the town to evacuate immediately.
A faithful Christian man heard the warning and decided to stay, saying to himself, ?I will trust God and if I am in danger, then God will send a divine miracle to save me.?
The neighbors came by his house and said to him, ?We?re leaving and there is room for you in our car, please come with us!? But the man declined. ?I have faith that God will save me.?
As the man stood on his porch watching the water rise up the steps, a man in a canoe paddled by and called to him, ?Hurry and come into my canoe, the waters are rising quickly!? But the man again said, ?No thanks, God will save me.?
The floodwaters rose higher pouring water into his living room and the man had to retreat to the second floor. A police motorboat came by and saw him at the window. ?We will come up and rescue you!? they shouted. But the man refused, waving them off saying, ?Use your time to save someone else! I have faith that God will save me!?
The flood waters rose higher and higher and the man had to climb up to his rooftop.
A helicopter spotted him and dropped a rope ladder. A rescue officer came down the ladder and pleaded with the man, “Grab my hand and I will pull you up!” But the man STILL refused, folding his arms tightly to his body. ?No thank you! God will save me!?
Shortly after, the house broke up and the floodwaters swept the man away and he drowned.
When in Heaven, the man stood before God and asked, ?I put all of my faith in You. Why didn?t You come and save me??
And God said, ?Son, I sent you a warning. I sent you a car. I sent you a canoe. I sent you a motorboat. I sent you a helicopter. What more were you looking for?? [/quote][/quote]
The only thing God has sent me is the bible. Which, even if the book made sense, is a stupid way to go about this.
I know, I know, the bible is a complex book and only APPEARS to be horse shit when looked at incorrectly. You can say the exact same thing about ANYTHING, so you’ll understand if that argument is less than convincing to me. [/quote]
Blasphemy! God sent you the Bhagavad Gita, the Analects, the Talmud, Ta-te-Ching, the Veda, the Qu’ran…need I go on?
[quote]TigerTime wrote:
I’m back. Let’s get right into it.
Why do whales have pelvic bones? [/quote]
Alien technology.
Next.[/quote]
Not quite. Why did God find it necessary to give whales, an animal with no need for a pelvic bone, a pelvic bone?
More interestingly, the human sacrum and coccyx appear as several vertebrae fused together. If we are the result of creation, why did God create us in such a way that we would look as though we evolved from monkeys? Why not just give us a solid sacrum, for example. [/quote]
I got no problem with evolution. [/quote]
Then how do you reconcile the theory of evolution with the story of creation in Genesis?[/quote]
Sorry, I’m not seeing the problem here.
What issue do you have with it?
[/quote]
If Adam and Eve were created as is, then there was no evolution. [/quote]
It’s a story, not a scientific model. You think a goat herder 2000 years ago would be receptive to hearing the intricacies of single-nucleotide polymorphisms?
[/quote]
Then God is a rather malevolent being for not correcting his vast array of worshipers who think otherwise. Though, you think God would have the foresight to at least give a passing mention in the bible that when he says “created” he really means “kicked off a process that would result in ‘man’ after several millions of years”… and given that god is all powerful, why would he bother with this process when he knows the result? He could just whip us up and skip all the monkey business… no pun intended.
which brings up another question, why did God never give us any information about the universe that we didn’t already know to be factual? Further still, the answers he offers for these “at the time unknowns” are so convoluted and vague that instead of hinting us in the right direction they actually took us backwards and resulted in violent wars and genocide (many of which God personally commanded to happen).
Ultimately, the answers in the bible given in genesis in no way logically lead to what science has found to be true and it can only be viewed as such while working backwards ex post-facto.
[/quote]
The bible isn’t a science book or a history book. The creation stories have important messages and truths for all people.
God also was kind enough to provide us math, science and history so we can know more about the world we live in with out having to refer to a religious text to do it.
Are you sure you read the bible? It sure doesn’t sound like…
[/quote]
Right, because as we all know it’s impossible to have both read the bible AND disagree with it. rolls eyes
[/quote]
You can disagree with it all you want, that’s not the issue. It just seems you have a weak grasp on the subject matter.
Archimedes gave us mathematics.
Newton gave us classical mechanics.
Galileo gave us science.
…I wasn’t always this sceptical (sic) of Christianity. If your God exists, he made me this way…
[/quote]
[/quote]
Well, it’s true. Had I felt God’s touch in that moment I would be where you are. My suspension of disbelief would be permanent. No matter how false the bible seemed I would insist it was just being interpreted wrong because I could FEEL God. Is this not what it means to have a close personal relationship with God? Don’t you, as a Christian, Feel God at all times?[/quote]
Unlike you, I felt god, very powerfully and on numerous occasions, in a way that I couldn’t possibly deny.
Then I did some research on my faith and realized those feelings, however poignant, were completely misguided.
Basing your convictions on feelings and spiritual promptings is like spinning a roulette wheel without knowing whether you got the winning number. Everyone gets a different number, and each is equally convinced that his is the winning number, but nobody can actually prove they won.
[quote]forlife wrote:
I remember reading that story as a believer. One I see it a little differently.
The guy’s problem was that he believed in a god in the first place. Had he used common sense, he would have jumped in his neighbor’s car long before the canoe, motorboat, and helicopter came along.
All of these rescue attempts are explainable without needing to believe in a supernatural being, so why believe in the first place?[/quote]
Belief is the suspension of free thinking and the embracing of whatever it is you have embraced.
If someone were to question such a belief people lash out for daring to question them !
[/quote]
Exactly. Once you willingly suspend disbelief, in the name of faith, it’s possible to believe literally anything. Which is why there are so many conflicting belief systems on the planet.
“My suspension of disbelief can beat up your suspension of disbelief!”
[quote]kamui wrote:
TigerTime’s journey remind me of this little story :
[quote]
A terrible storm came into a town and local officials sent out an emergency warning that the riverbanks would soon overflow and flood the nearby homes. They ordered everyone in the town to evacuate immediately.
A faithful Christian man heard the warning and decided to stay, saying to himself, ?I will trust God and if I am in danger, then God will send a divine miracle to save me.?
The neighbors came by his house and said to him, ?We?re leaving and there is room for you in our car, please come with us!? But the man declined. ?I have faith that God will save me.?
As the man stood on his porch watching the water rise up the steps, a man in a canoe paddled by and called to him, ?Hurry and come into my canoe, the waters are rising quickly!? But the man again said, ?No thanks, God will save me.?
The floodwaters rose higher pouring water into his living room and the man had to retreat to the second floor. A police motorboat came by and saw him at the window. ?We will come up and rescue you!? they shouted. But the man refused, waving them off saying, ?Use your time to save someone else! I have faith that God will save me!?
The flood waters rose higher and higher and the man had to climb up to his rooftop.
A helicopter spotted him and dropped a rope ladder. A rescue officer came down the ladder and pleaded with the man, “Grab my hand and I will pull you up!” But the man STILL refused, folding his arms tightly to his body. ?No thank you! God will save me!?
Shortly after, the house broke up and the floodwaters swept the man away and he drowned.
When in Heaven, the man stood before God and asked, ?I put all of my faith in You. Why didn?t You come and save me??
And God said, ?Son, I sent you a warning. I sent you a car. I sent you a canoe. I sent you a motorboat. I sent you a helicopter. What more were you looking for?? [/quote][/quote]
The only thing God has sent me is the bible. Which, even if the book made sense, is a stupid way to go about this.
I know, I know, the bible is a complex book and only APPEARS to be horse shit when looked at incorrectly. You can say the exact same thing about ANYTHING, so you’ll understand if that argument is less than convincing to me. [/quote]
Blasphemy! God sent you the Bhagavad Gita, the Analects, the Talmud, Ta-te-Ching, the Veda, the Qu’ran…need I go on?[/quote]
Lol! What a headache this thread would be if all that was on the table XD
Mythology is art alone it’s a comment on current event and eternal human struggles. Whoop-tie do. Religion is not that, religion is a way to communicate with God, not just a bunch of irrelevant old stories. It’s a way to communicate to the universe’s or existences’ creator. Religious texts offer back ground and information into that relationship.
You cannot simply relegate it to mythology because mythology is irrelevant. But whether you like it or not, religion is damn relevant.
[/quote]
Religion is only different from mythology to the extent that it is factually correct. And as you have pointed out, the bible is far from factually correct. To the extent it gets the facts wrong, it is a book of myths and nothing more.[/quote]
Since when the bible claim to be the world almanac? It’s not a history book. Is what it teaches wrong?
Mythology is art alone it’s a comment on current event and eternal human struggles. Whoop-tie do. Religion is not that, religion is a way to communicate with God, not just a bunch of irrelevant old stories. It’s a way to communicate to the universe’s or existences’ creator. Religious texts offer back ground and information into that relationship.
You cannot simply relegate it to mythology because mythology is irrelevant. But whether you like it or not, religion is damn relevant.
[/quote]
Religion is only different from mythology to the extent that it is factually correct. And as you have pointed out, the bible is far from factually correct. To the extent it gets the facts wrong, it is a book of myths and nothing more.[/quote]
Since when the bible claim to be the world almanac? It’s not a history book. Is what it teaches wrong? [/quote]
If it’s not a history book, then the cast of characters it tells stories about, from Moses to Abraham to Paul to Jesus are all questionable. If these people didn’t actually exist, if the words ascribed to them weren’t actually spoken, and if the events ascribed to them didn’t actually happen, the bible is nothing more than another mythical book.
[quote]pat wrote:
Uh, why should God do anything special for you again? I didn’t realize you were that special. It’s not God’s job to convince you of anything. If you are genuinely interested there is troves and troves of information on God, religion and faith. Get to studying it if you really want to know. There’s just reams of info out there.
Have you lifted a finger to truly understand it? That’d be a hell no.
Instead you spend all your time looking on www.atheismismydaddy.com in order to debunk religion. You aren’t interested in faith unless your interest is to mock our inferiority, or to say something isn’t a religious tenet because science says so. All you do is look for information disparaging faith.
So tell me why should God come down and treat you special again? Why should he make a concerted effort to convince you when you haven’t done a damn thing on your own. Hell you won’t even meet him in the middle.
Oh wait you supposedly read the Bible, even though you have a weak grasp on the subject matter with in. Bet you couldn’t even tell me what Paul said about dominion and warring nations.
It isn’t God’s job to convince you of Him. If you want to know you’ll find him. If you are just going to be lazy and peruse atheist propaganda and ask dumb questions like why whales have a pelvic bone, then go on and be an atheist. God doesn’t owe you a fucking thing.
You can see all the gods you want to, but it’s logically impossible for there to be more than one.
[/quote]
Again, it’s not about me being special. I would expect God to do the same for everyone. Why would he create me to be sceptical if he didn’t want me to be sceptical?
Everything else you said is the old “the information is there, you just haven’t looked for it and I know this because if you had then you would OBVIOUSLY agree with me!” cop out.
[/quote]
It’s the truth, period.
I can tell who has a good grasp on the subject matter and who does not, whether they agreed with me or not. Agreements or disagreements are not the same as not knowing or understanding the contents of said book. I got through school skimming books, I know a skim job when I see one.
There are many ideas on the metaphoric contexts of the creation stories. There is no direct reference of elapsed time except for ‘days’ which technically did not exist day and night came into play. Plus there are other references though out scripture referring the the creation of the universe different than chap 1 & 2 Genesis. I don’t know why God chose to do what he did. But if you were an uneducated farmer 2000 years ago, that wouldn’t make any sense any damn way.
The important pieces of the story have to do with basic facts, creation and sin. It’s not a scientific account.
And that is proof positive that everything you know about scripture came from atheist blogs and not from an honest reading of scripture. If God made it, why can’t he choose to destroy it? Does he need your permission?
All you are is all pissed off that God doesn’t act the way you think he should, period. That’s all there is to it.
You watched a single kids movie at 10 years old, and God didn’t come down and talk to you so you just said fuck it because you didn’t feel anything? And this was your effort? This was your research. Oh brother.
I find it very difficult to believe that you read the whole Bible and that’s what you got out of it? Sounds like you read a part of Joshua only. Believe it or not, God did not spend most of his time destroying or killing people.
No, you saw a fucking movie at 10 and heard a lecture at 13. That hardly constitutes giving God every chance to save you. If you did spend any time with it at all and did in fact read the bible, you’d know that’s not how it works.
I am to understand by this that you had full and mature wisdom enough at both 10 and 13 to have rational understanding of faith and it’s tenets? Give me a break. You saw a movie and a conference, big deal. I have studied it in one way or another, from diffenrent angles, differnent faiths and different point’s of view. I have spent thousands of hours on it you spent some where around 5-6, total. I can defend my faith with scripture without it, or from a completely deistic point of view. Doesn’t much matter to me the method. I have made myself well equipped to handle it.
If you are making life long decisions on matters of faith as a child in such a way that you are committed to not revisit them; it’s plain foolish. If you think that’s age discrimination, so be it. You’re only 18 now, you haven’t even begun to live.
I am not attacking that anyhow, I attack the notion that you put forth.
I attack that God doesn’t act the way you think he should, therefore you refuse to believe in Him. You rely on science and nature both of which demand the existence of God for there very existence. Deists were able to figure out not only God’s existence, but His nature by observation of nature and the sciences. The posit by this that it’s impossible for God not to exist. I very much agree.
To old. check the profile.
Hey don’t put that shit on me. Your whole argument is “God doesn’t do what I think he should. Because he’s God and can do anything. Because he claims he wants me to be saved, he should take the time to prove it to me the way I think he should.”
Horseshit. What’s there is there. 2000 years of Christian history. 5000 years if you go in to Jewish antiquity.
5 hours of movies and seminars wouldn’t convince me of shit either. Put some effort into it. Look things up. Do some research. God didn’t disappear in the 1rst century.
Oh? Prove it.
You’re the one that told me you spent time on faith when you were 10 and 13. I never once said anything about you being 18 except that you have not even begun to experience real life. Which is true.
You have me confused with somebody else. I haven’t harped on your age. But you have brought it up numerous times…
Hey you said you spent about 5 hours on it. I guess you were expecting like a buzz or something. If your looking to get high, smoke a joint.
You have some bizarre expectation that are going to suddenly feel different and happy? That’s just weird. I really can’t imagine how you got that idea.
Fine, but not getting high on God is not a reason to think he doesn’t exist. But I have heard dumber reasons…
Not necessarily but can you name any other man or man made thing that has influenced the world to such a measure? I sure as hell can’t. If it were truly meaningless it would be powerless as well. Meaningless things have no power.
[quote]
Btw, I can’t check your age. Your profile is private. [/quote]
I’ll put it to you this way. If I had a kid when I was your age, he’d be old enough to drink legally.
Mythology is art alone it’s a comment on current event and eternal human struggles. Whoop-tie do. Religion is not that, religion is a way to communicate with God, not just a bunch of irrelevant old stories. It’s a way to communicate to the universe’s or existences’ creator. Religious texts offer back ground and information into that relationship.
You cannot simply relegate it to mythology because mythology is irrelevant. But whether you like it or not, religion is damn relevant.
[/quote]
Religion is only different from mythology to the extent that it is factually correct. And as you have pointed out, the bible is far from factually correct. To the extent it gets the facts wrong, it is a book of myths and nothing more.[/quote]
Since when the bible claim to be the world almanac? It’s not a history book. Is what it teaches wrong? [/quote]
If it’s not a history book, then the cast of characters it tells stories about, from Moses to Abraham to Paul to Jesus are all questionable. If these people didn’t actually exist, if the words ascribed to them weren’t actually spoken, and if the events ascribed to them didn’t actually happen, the bible is nothing more than another mythical book.[/quote]
Well then prove none of it happened…Should be easy enough.
Mythology is art alone it’s a comment on current event and eternal human struggles. Whoop-tie do. Religion is not that, religion is a way to communicate with God, not just a bunch of irrelevant old stories. It’s a way to communicate to the universe’s or existences’ creator. Religious texts offer back ground and information into that relationship.
You cannot simply relegate it to mythology because mythology is irrelevant. But whether you like it or not, religion is damn relevant.
[/quote]
Religion is only different from mythology to the extent that it is factually correct. And as you have pointed out, the bible is far from factually correct. To the extent it gets the facts wrong, it is a book of myths and nothing more.[/quote]
Since when the bible claim to be the world almanac? It’s not a history book. Is what it teaches wrong? [/quote]
If it’s not a history book, then the cast of characters it tells stories about, from Moses to Abraham to Paul to Jesus are all questionable. If these people didn’t actually exist, if the words ascribed to them weren’t actually spoken, and if the events ascribed to them didn’t actually happen, the bible is nothing more than another mythical book.[/quote]
Well then prove none of it happened…Should be easy enough.[/quote]
I was just pointing out why it actually is important to know whether or not biblical events are historically accurate. You stated earlier that the bible isn’t a history book, but the factual accuracy of that history is the only thing that would differentiate it from myth.
We’re not just talking about minor historical details, here. For example, a significant number of biblical scholars question the historical accuracy of Jesus rising from the dead. That’s a pretty important claim to know whether or not it actually happened, I’m sure you agree.
