I would say that when you use mythology and ideology to make decisions the error is in believing that massively complex questions have “common sense” analogy type answers that any non computational solution can reach.
If a problem is massively complex such as predicting the economy, or predicting the effect on society based on a change in legal policy, the data set is simply enormous and cascading. That doesn’t keep people from adopting the “god complex” and claiming to know the answers.
The most efficient way we have to answer these massively-multi-variable questions is by trial and error. Whether it be designing a nozzle for manufacturing powdered laundry detergent, or evolving a human being.
We are playing in situations that are too complex to be solved in the way common sense allows us to solve “get food in tree” type problems, but our instinct is always to try common sense first, which we increasingly find has little connection to circumstances outside the domain in which our common sense evolved. We must have the endurance to forsake these conspicuously simple solutions.
Let’s assume that without ever reading a bible or hearing a proselytizing missionary or preist that one can get into heaven, because we also assume god isn’t prone to favoritism. How is this achieved by someone living in south america or Japan 1000 years ago?
[quote]TigerTime wrote:
^ This is exactly what I’m talking about. Why does God leave his followers to argue amongst themselves about what God means in a particular passage? Don’t you find it strange? You all already believe in him, so why doesn’t he at least tell his followers how to interpret his book? [/quote]
Well he gave us an authority, the Church. The Church is the bulwark and pillar of truth. The truth will set you free. So, what does the Church have to say about this matter.
That the reason why each verse doesn’t have a definite interpretation? Scripture is too deep to just have a definite interpretation. Every verse has basic interpretation divided into four different ways: literal, allegorical, moral, and heavenly.
Then there is the fact that humans have free will and the ability to reason. Further, the Bible was written for baptized Christians those who already held to the tenets of the faith. They didn’t need to figure out what to do and how to do it in the basic sense, the Apostles already taught them.
Hey Push… I’m having trouble finding a source on this. If there’s a shorthand form of this question that might narrow my search. I’ll keep looking for now, thanks in advance.
[quote]TigerTime wrote:
^ This is exactly what I’m talking about. Why does God leave his followers to argue amongst themselves about what God means in a particular passage? Don’t you find it strange? You all already believe in him, so why doesn’t he at least tell his followers how to interpret his book? [/quote]
Well he gave us an authority, the Church. The Church is the bulwark and pillar of truth. The truth will set you free. So, what does the Church have to say about this matter.
That the reason why each verse doesn’t have a definite interpretation? Scripture is too deep to just have a definite interpretation. Every verse has basic interpretation divided into four different ways: literal, allegorical, moral, and heavenly.
Then there is the fact that humans have free will and the ability to reason. Further, the Bible was written for baptized Christians those who already held to the tenets of the faith. They didn’t need to figure out what to do and how to do it in the basic sense, the Apostles already taught them.
[/quote]
How can we be certain that over 2000 years, nobody pulled anyone’s leg about anything in one particular religious organization, and then at the same time have the faculties to dispute or question any self-styled “expert” or official?
^ This is exactly what I’m talking about. Why does God leave his followers to argue amongst themselves about what God means in a particular passage? Don’t you find it strange? You all already believe in him, so why doesn’t he at least tell his followers how to interpret his book? [/quote]
All we disagree on is whether or not it’s a historically accurate account, which in faith is minutia. We don’t disagree on it’s meaning or it’s place in salvation history with is more important.
If the bible were a super simple spelled out book, it would be about 3 -4 times longer to accommodate all the rich subtleties woven in and out of the pages. I wish God were more obvious too, but he isn’t. It’s a complicated, intricate, meticulous collection of books each has their own purpose of a people and how salvation came through a bunch of loose nuts like the ancient Hebrews.
If he wanted to reveal himself through an educated sophisticated society he would have picked the Egyptians. Hell, for His own ‘sanity’ it would have been much easier dealing with them.
You can look at it another way, God took the humblest, most unsophisticated, most uneducated loosely bound together folks and changed the way the world works completely. Whether you are an atheist, Christian, Muslim, Jew or otherwise there are 2 undeniable facts:
Jesus was the most influential and important person in the history of the world.
The Bible, is the most influential, most important book in the history of the world.
Jesus’s existence even changed the way we kept time, it changed the whole entire world. The bible, His story carried the message and was the conduit.
It still is the best selling book in history by a wide margin…Not bad for a fake magician dude and a book of fairy tales, eh? [/quote]
Right, God works in mysterious ways. Got it.
You know what would make a Hell of a lot more sense than passing on the most important message and philosophy in the history of the world via ancient book derived from verbally passed down stories? Actually talking to us. By talking to us, there’s never a need to wage war over what God means, we can just ask him. There’s no need for long, complicated justifications, we can just ask him. No need for conjecture or assumptions, we can just ask him. God had no problem answering question before, why is it such a big deal now? It takes no effort on god’s part, right?
[quote]forlife wrote:<<< I’m blind too, but admitting that fact is the beginning of true wisdom and enlightenment.[/quote]No kiddin? Aw now that is like really far out man.
[/quote]
Apparently, the concept is so far out you can’t even imagine applying it to your current state of “enlightenment”…which is kinda the point ;)[/quote]Uncle
[quote]pat wrote:<<< God not acting like you personally think he should doesn’t make a good argument countering the existence of God.[/quote]I can say a big amen to this Pat.
[quote]pat wrote:
Uh, why should God do anything special for you again? I didn’t realize you were that special. It’s not God’s job to convince you of anything. If you are genuinely interested there is troves and troves of information on God, religion and faith. Get to studying it if you really want to know. There’s just reams of info out there.
Have you lifted a finger to truly understand it? That’d be a hell no.
Instead you spend all your time looking on www.atheismismydaddy.com in order to debunk religion. You aren’t interested in faith unless your interest is to mock our inferiority, or to say something isn’t a religious tenet because science says so. All you do is look for information disparaging faith.
So tell me why should God come down and treat you special again? Why should he make a concerted effort to convince you when you haven’t done a damn thing on your own. Hell you won’t even meet him in the middle.
Oh wait you supposedly read the Bible, even though you have a weak grasp on the subject matter with in. Bet you couldn’t even tell me what Paul said about dominion and warring nations.
It isn’t God’s job to convince you of Him. If you want to know you’ll find him. If you are just going to be lazy and peruse atheist propaganda and ask dumb questions like why whales have a pelvic bone, then go on and be an atheist. God doesn’t owe you a fucking thing.
You can see all the gods you want to, but it’s logically impossible for there to be more than one.
[/quote]
Again, it’s not about me being special. I would expect God to do the same for everyone. Why would he create me to be sceptical if he didn’t want me to be sceptical?
Everything else you said is the old “the information is there, you just haven’t looked for it and I know this because if you had then you would OBVIOUSLY agree with me!” cop out.
[/quote]
It’s the truth, period.
I can tell who has a good grasp on the subject matter and who does not, whether they agreed with me or not. Agreements or disagreements are not the same as not knowing or understanding the contents of said book. I got through school skimming books, I know a skim job when I see one.
There are many ideas on the metaphoric contexts of the creation stories. There is no direct reference of elapsed time except for ‘days’ which technically did not exist day and night came into play. Plus there are other references though out scripture referring the the creation of the universe different than chap 1 & 2 Genesis. I don’t know why God chose to do what he did. But if you were an uneducated farmer 2000 years ago, that wouldn’t make any sense any damn way.
The important pieces of the story have to do with basic facts, creation and sin. It’s not a scientific account.
And that is proof positive that everything you know about scripture came from atheist blogs and not from an honest reading of scripture. If God made it, why can’t he choose to destroy it? Does he need your permission?
All you are is all pissed off that God doesn’t act the way you think he should, period. That’s all there is to it.
You watched a single kids movie at 10 years old, and God didn’t come down and talk to you so you just said fuck it because you didn’t feel anything? And this was your effort? This was your research. Oh brother.
I find it very difficult to believe that you read the whole Bible and that’s what you got out of it? Sounds like you read a part of Joshua only. Believe it or not, God did not spend most of his time destroying or killing people.
No, you saw a fucking movie at 10 and heard a lecture at 13. That hardly constitutes giving God every chance to save you. If you did spend any time with it at all and did in fact read the bible, you’d know that’s not how it works.
I am to understand by this that you had full and mature wisdom enough at both 10 and 13 to have rational understanding of faith and it’s tenets? Give me a break. You saw a movie and a conference, big deal. I have studied it in one way or another, from diffenrent angles, differnent faiths and different point’s of view. I have spent thousands of hours on it you spent some where around 5-6, total. I can defend my faith with scripture without it, or from a completely deistic point of view. Doesn’t much matter to me the method. I have made myself well equipped to handle it.
If you are making life long decisions on matters of faith as a child in such a way that you are committed to not revisit them; it’s plain foolish. If you think that’s age discrimination, so be it. You’re only 18 now, you haven’t even begun to live.
I am not attacking that anyhow, I attack the notion that you put forth.
I attack that God doesn’t act the way you think he should, therefore you refuse to believe in Him. You rely on science and nature both of which demand the existence of God for there very existence. Deists were able to figure out not only God’s existence, but His nature by observation of nature and the sciences. The posit by this that it’s impossible for God not to exist. I very much agree.
To old. check the profile.
Hey don’t put that shit on me. Your whole argument is “God doesn’t do what I think he should. Because he’s God and can do anything. Because he claims he wants me to be saved, he should take the time to prove it to me the way I think he should.”
Horseshit. What’s there is there. 2000 years of Christian history. 5000 years if you go in to Jewish antiquity.
5 hours of movies and seminars wouldn’t convince me of shit either. Put some effort into it. Look things up. Do some research. God didn’t disappear in the 1rst century.
[quote]
If there is a God, he is ashamed at what has been said and done in his name. [/quote]
No doubt man has screwed up. No doubt there has been great evil done under the pretense of being religion. But see the good stuff, the charity, the millions saved through various means, the hope provided to millions all in the name of Christ just isn’t as sexy as a good scandal. Good doesn’t make headlines. [/quote]
You spend more time trying to undermine me than my actual arguments.
"Baawww he’s just 18, he can’t be correct because he’s 18. "
“Baawww he hasn’t spent any time on this, he can’t be correct because he didn’t spend 20+ years coming up with his answer.”
"Baawww so he did spend some time and gave the idea serious thought, he was only 10 at the time. 10 years olds can’t be right because they’re 10.
“Bawww, so he gave it another honest chance a few years later but was once again left unconvinced by science and scripture, he was only 13! His thoughts don’t matter because he was only 13.”
This sums up about 90% of your “arguments”.
I didn’t spend a couple hours on the subject then dropped it. I spent years waiting for a response. In bed, at recess, during class, during lunch, it didn’t matter. The movie was such a big deal to me because it seemed like this is what I was missing. This was the ritual I had to do, but didn’t know of. NOW I would hear God, or at least FEEL his presence.
What, was I too young for God to care about? I wasn’t always this sceptical of Christianity. If your God exists, he made me this way. Now, maybe his plan for me involved making me very sceptical for whatever reason, but personally I think he just doesn’t exist.
Also, nothing you wrote confirms or falsifies Christianity. Your post was a series of non-sequiturs. Age means nothing in the face of evidence and logic. Christianity being around for thousands of years doesn’t prove it’s true.
Btw, I can’t check your age. Your profile is private.
[quote]kamui wrote:
TigerTime’s journey remind me of this little story :
[quote]
A terrible storm came into a town and local officials sent out an emergency warning that the riverbanks would soon overflow and flood the nearby homes. They ordered everyone in the town to evacuate immediately.
A faithful Christian man heard the warning and decided to stay, saying to himself, ?I will trust God and if I am in danger, then God will send a divine miracle to save me.?
The neighbors came by his house and said to him, ?We?re leaving and there is room for you in our car, please come with us!? But the man declined. ?I have faith that God will save me.?
As the man stood on his porch watching the water rise up the steps, a man in a canoe paddled by and called to him, ?Hurry and come into my canoe, the waters are rising quickly!? But the man again said, ?No thanks, God will save me.?
The floodwaters rose higher pouring water into his living room and the man had to retreat to the second floor. A police motorboat came by and saw him at the window. ?We will come up and rescue you!? they shouted. But the man refused, waving them off saying, ?Use your time to save someone else! I have faith that God will save me!?
The flood waters rose higher and higher and the man had to climb up to his rooftop.
A helicopter spotted him and dropped a rope ladder. A rescue officer came down the ladder and pleaded with the man, “Grab my hand and I will pull you up!” But the man STILL refused, folding his arms tightly to his body. ?No thank you! God will save me!?
Shortly after, the house broke up and the floodwaters swept the man away and he drowned.
When in Heaven, the man stood before God and asked, ?I put all of my faith in You. Why didn?t You come and save me??
And God said, ?Son, I sent you a warning. I sent you a car. I sent you a canoe. I sent you a motorboat. I sent you a helicopter. What more were you looking for?? [/quote][/quote]
The only thing God has sent me is the bible. Which, even if the book made sense, is a stupid way to go about this.
I know, I know, the bible is a complex book and only APPEARS to be horse shit when looked at incorrectly. You can say the exact same thing about ANYTHING, so you’ll understand if that argument is less than convincing to me.
Thank you for directing me. My search terms were linking me to questions about what natural disasters meant regarding the status of various culture’s in the christian god’s eyes. I found a lot of racist stuff.
The answers that they provide seem to square with the belief in a just god. Not that “just” can be consistent across the board for everything god is said to have done or commanded.
This all of course relies on the primary assumption that this specific god exists. Another thing I’m not sure about is if this is considered a priori or a posteriori in the official christian understanding.
You spend more time trying to undermine me than my actual arguments.
"Baawww he’s just 18, he can’t be correct because he’s 18. "
“Baawww he hasn’t spent any time on this, he can’t be correct because he didn’t spend 20+ years coming up with his answer.”
"Baawww so he did spend some time and gave the idea serious thought, he was only 10 at the time. 10 years olds can’t be right because they’re 10.
“Bawww, so he gave it another honest chance a few years later but was once again left unconvinced by science and scripture, he was only 13! His thoughts don’t matter because he was only 13.”
This sums up about 90% of your “arguments”.
I didn’t spend a couple hours on the subject then dropped it. I spent years waiting for a response. In bed, at recess, during class, during lunch, it didn’t matter. The movie was such a big deal to me because it seemed like this is what I was missing. This was the ritual I had to do, but didn’t know of. NOW I would hear God, or at least FEEL his presence.
What, was I too young for God to care about? I wasn’t always this sceptical of Christianity. If your God exists, he made me this way. Now, maybe his plan for me involved making me very sceptical for whatever reason, but personally I think he just doesn’t exist.
Also, nothing you wrote confirms or falsifies Christianity. Your post was a series of non-sequiturs. Age means nothing in the face of evidence and logic. Christianity being around for thousands of years doesn’t prove it’s true.
Btw, I can’t check your age. Your profile is private. [/quote]
Yeah there’s a lot of argumentum ad antiquitatem flying around. But whatevs.
