Because without Satan “heaven” would be full of a-holes.
[quote]TigerTime wrote:
[quote]Bondslave wrote:
[quote]TigerTime wrote:
[quote]Bondslave wrote:
[quote]TigerTime wrote:
[quote]pat wrote:
[quote]TigerTime wrote:
How noble God is, giving us the freedom to do exactly what he tells us to do…[/quote]
Uh, he doesn’t otherwise there would be no point in any of it. Faith would be ridiculous and random if that were true. You have the freedom to go against God, all you want. You do what ever you want, only by the constraints of your natural condition are you held back. [/quote]
That’s the thing. He gives us the freedom to do whatever we want, but we’ll end up in Hell if we don’t do what he tells us to anyway.[/quote]How dare God ask us to believe in Jesus Christ and love God and our neighbors? What a horrible tyrant demanding all these absurd things of us! /end sarcasm. If you can’t be bothered to do something as simple as believe, don’t go blaming anyone but your prideful self.
[/quote]
… You’re so ridiculously far off the map I’m surprised you managed to even find this thread. There’s a hell of a lot more to being Christian than believing in Jesus and loving your neighbours and you know it. Don’t act stupid.[/quote]
Oh the irony! Well done sir.
"And a lawyer stood up and put Him to the test, saying, “Teacher, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?”
And He said to him, “What is written in the Law? How does it read to you?”
And he answered, “YOU SHALL LOVE THE LORD YOUR GOD WITH ALL YOUR HEART, AND WITH ALL YOUR SOUL, AND WITH ALL YOUR STRENGTH, AND YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOURSELF.”
And He said to him, “You have answered correctly; DO THIS AND YOU WILL LIVE.” Luke 10
If you love God and your neighbor then you inherently do the things God requires of us (as far as imperfect humans can expect to). Or at the very least have a strong desire to do so. I can tell you, none of them feel like a yoke of slavery that I must do in order to recieve eternal life. On the contrary, it brings peace and joy and freedom, and causes personal growth.
Now, I can understand how someone who hates themself, their neighbors, and has no love of God in them, would find loving their neighbor and all the possible things that could go along with that to be a great burden and feel like hundreds of rules are being placed upon them that they must do.
I’m sorry if you fall into the second category, but again, blame none but you. After all, you are the one who will give an account for yourself.
“On these two commandments depend the whole Law and the Prophets.”
[/quote]
What a joke. So I could be gay, work every sunday, practice lust, gluttony, greed, sloth, wrath, envy, and pride, but so long as I believe in Jesus and love my neighbor then I’m going to heaven, is that right?[/quote]
If you love God and your neighbor then it is unlikely you will be practicing all those things you listed. God will be the Judge of that. This really isn’t a difficult concept to grasp, so I must conclude you are being a troll just to argue. Have fun with that. Obviously there is much to discuss on the topic, but you are an unwilling participant in intelligent discourse.
[quote]kaaleppi wrote:
[quote]Bondslave wrote:
Now, I can understand how someone who hates themself, their neighbors, and has no love of God in them, would find loving their neighbor and all the possible things that could go along with that to be a great burden and feel like hundreds of rules are being placed upon them that they must do.
[/quote]
I may very well be pleased with myself and even my neighbours, though not as likely, and totally dislike the christian god. Or hate myself and god, and love my neighbour. Or love god, but hate myself and my neighbour, which seems to be quite common among christians.[/quote]
Don’t cherry-pick my posts if you wish to be taken seriously. That quote is part of a larger point I was making in the context of an even larger conversation. Not surprising though, cherry-picking scripture is one of the favorite pasttimes of anti-Christ trolls. It just comes natural to do it with everything I suppose.
[quote]Bondslave wrote:
[quote]kaaleppi wrote:
[quote]Bondslave wrote:
Now, I can understand how someone who hates themself, their neighbors, and has no love of God in them, would find loving their neighbor and all the possible things that could go along with that to be a great burden and feel like hundreds of rules are being placed upon them that they must do.
[/quote]
I may very well be pleased with myself and even my neighbours, though not as likely, and totally dislike the christian god. Or hate myself and god, and love my neighbour. Or love god, but hate myself and my neighbour, which seems to be quite common among christians.[/quote]
Don’t cherry-pick my posts if you wish to be taken seriously. That quote is part of a larger point I was making in the context of an even larger conversation. Not surprising though, cherry-picking scripture is one of the favorite pasttimes of anti-Christ trolls. It just comes natural to do it with everything I suppose.
[/quote]
That was scripture? I thought that was you saying that if I don’t believe in God I’m hating myself and my neighbour.
[quote]kaaleppi wrote:
[quote]Bondslave wrote:
[quote]kaaleppi wrote:
[quote]Bondslave wrote:
Now, I can understand how someone who hates themself, their neighbors, and has no love of God in them, would find loving their neighbor and all the possible things that could go along with that to be a great burden and feel like hundreds of rules are being placed upon them that they must do.
[/quote]
I may very well be pleased with myself and even my neighbours, though not as likely, and totally dislike the christian god. Or hate myself and god, and love my neighbour. Or love god, but hate myself and my neighbour, which seems to be quite common among christians.[/quote]
Don’t cherry-pick my posts if you wish to be taken seriously. That quote is part of a larger point I was making in the context of an even larger conversation. Not surprising though, cherry-picking scripture is one of the favorite pasttimes of anti-Christ trolls. It just comes natural to do it with everything I suppose.
[/quote]
That was scripture? I thought that was you saying that if I don’t believe in God I’m hating myself and my neighbour.[/quote]LOL at this. Maybe there is a language barrier since you are in Finland? If not, then your reading comprehension is seriously lacking my friend. Take care sir.
[quote]Bondslave wrote:
[quote]kaaleppi wrote:
[quote]Bondslave wrote:
[quote]kaaleppi wrote:
[quote]Bondslave wrote:
Now, I can understand how someone who hates themself, their neighbors, and has no love of God in them, would find loving their neighbor and all the possible things that could go along with that to be a great burden and feel like hundreds of rules are being placed upon them that they must do.
[/quote]
I may very well be pleased with myself and even my neighbours, though not as likely, and totally dislike the christian god. Or hate myself and god, and love my neighbour. Or love god, but hate myself and my neighbour, which seems to be quite common among christians.[/quote]
Don’t cherry-pick my posts if you wish to be taken seriously. That quote is part of a larger point I was making in the context of an even larger conversation. Not surprising though, cherry-picking scripture is one of the favorite pasttimes of anti-Christ trolls. It just comes natural to do it with everything I suppose.
[/quote]
That was scripture? I thought that was you saying that if I don’t believe in God I’m hating myself and my neighbour.[/quote]LOL at this. Maybe there is a language barrier since you are in Finland? If not, then your reading comprehension is seriously lacking my friend. Take care sir.
[/quote]
You too.
[quote]TigerTime wrote:
[quote]Cortes wrote:
[quote]TigerTime wrote:
[quote]Cortes wrote:
[quote]TigerTime wrote:
[quote]pat wrote:
[quote]TigerTime wrote:
How noble God is, giving us the freedom to do exactly what he tells us to do…[/quote]
Uh, he doesn’t otherwise there would be no point in any of it. Faith would be ridiculous and random if that were true. You have the freedom to go against God, all you want. You do what ever you want, only by the constraints of your natural condition are you held back. [/quote]
That’s the thing. He gives us the freedom to do whatever we want, but we’ll end up in Hell if we don’t do what he tells us to anyway.[/quote]
You have the freedom to put your hand on a hot stove, too. [/quote]
That’s a little different. A hot stove directly damages your body, that pain is necessary to learn not do do something so harmful. I see no reason to torture a man for all eternity for being gay, or working on Sunday.[/quote]
No. It is not different. Just like sin, it is what it is. Reality dictates that you CAN put your hand to a hot stove. If you do this, there will be certain consequences that necessarily follow from this action. In exactly the same manner, if you purposefully, knowingly sin, you remove yourself from God. You’re getting hung up on the punishment aspect of Hell, but what Hell is, actually, is the complete removal of oneself from God. The eternal torture, the outer darkness, the wailing and gnashing of teeth, is all incidental. The true punishment is that you will have removed yourself for all eternity from God, from love, warmth, happiness, every good thing you can imagine.
Now, to turn this on its head for a minute, I’ve got a question for you, man, who feel you know better than your creator what is best: What then would be “fair?”
[/quote]
No, they are very different. Burning your hand is tautologically painful, being gay or working on Sunday requires absolutely no pain or suffering unless some sadistic “God” is going to arbitrarily define these things as worth punishment. I mean, what if God decided that wearing shirts made of mixed fibers or eating shellfish was a sin? That would be ridiculous… wouldn’t it?
Your question is incorrect. It isn’t a matter of “what is fair” relative to working on Sunday or being gay. That would be like me asking what is the fair way to treat people who work on Monday and are celibate?[/quote]
If you want to be seen as something other than a troll, then you should understand your obligation to speak clearly. Because right now what it looks like is you are just here to stir up shit.
I’ll give you the benefit of the doubt for one more post.
-
My analogy applies. Action => Consequence. You introduced your idea of “arbitrary punishment” into the argument later, but arbitrariness or the lack of it has nothing whatsoever to do with my simple analogy. So what if it’s temporal and it happens to teach you something? It isn’t my point. My point was that you know what is going to happen if you touch that stove. Little kids even know this, yet they do it anyway. Adults tend to know better, which is one of the benefits of maturity.
-
Are you implying that you know that there is no hidden consequence to homosexual partnerships, or blatantly disobeying the commandment to keep holy the Sabbath day (which is also different from “not working on Sunday”), among others?
-
Your implication of the equivalence of Levitican minutiae is the kind of crap that leads me to believe you’re just trying to stir up shit.
-
My question was not “incorrect.” It’s a question, how the hell can it be “incorrect?” It can be misguided, misdirected, misapplied, but not “incorrect.” Aside from that, I said nothing about what was fair “relative to working on Sunday.” You added that. So let’s try again. Assuming there is a God who is not arbitrary, I want to know what you think should be the qualifying and excluding actions that should get us into Heaven. It’s obvious you have an opinion about this, as you think certain things should NOT exclude us from membership into that elite club (you used the words “sadistic” and “arbitrary,” hence, unfair). So, what should the standard be, then?
wow
[quote]pushharder wrote:
[quote]Bondslave wrote:
[quote]TigerTime wrote:
[quote]Bondslave wrote:
[quote]TigerTime wrote:
[quote]Bondslave wrote:
[quote]TigerTime wrote:
[quote]pat wrote:
[quote]TigerTime wrote:
How noble God is, giving us the freedom to do exactly what he tells us to do…[/quote]
Uh, he doesn’t otherwise there would be no point in any of it. Faith would be ridiculous and random if that were true. You have the freedom to go against God, all you want. You do what ever you want, only by the constraints of your natural condition are you held back. [/quote]
That’s the thing. He gives us the freedom to do whatever we want, but we’ll end up in Hell if we don’t do what he tells us to anyway.[/quote]How dare God ask us to believe in Jesus Christ and love God and our neighbors? What a horrible tyrant demanding all these absurd things of us! /end sarcasm. If you can’t be bothered to do something as simple as believe, don’t go blaming anyone but your prideful self.
[/quote]
… You’re so ridiculously far off the map I’m surprised you managed to even find this thread. There’s a hell of a lot more to being Christian than believing in Jesus and loving your neighbours and you know it. Don’t act stupid.[/quote]
Oh the irony! Well done sir.
"And a lawyer stood up and put Him to the test, saying, “Teacher, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?”
And He said to him, “What is written in the Law? How does it read to you?”
And he answered, “YOU SHALL LOVE THE LORD YOUR GOD WITH ALL YOUR HEART, AND WITH ALL YOUR SOUL, AND WITH ALL YOUR STRENGTH, AND YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOURSELF.”
And He said to him, “You have answered correctly; DO THIS AND YOU WILL LIVE.” Luke 10
If you love God and your neighbor then you inherently do the things God requires of us (as far as imperfect humans can expect to). Or at the very least have a strong desire to do so. I can tell you, none of them feel like a yoke of slavery that I must do in order to recieve eternal life. On the contrary, it brings peace and joy and freedom, and causes personal growth.
Now, I can understand how someone who hates themself, their neighbors, and has no love of God in them, would find loving their neighbor and all the possible things that could go along with that to be a great burden and feel like hundreds of rules are being placed upon them that they must do.
I’m sorry if you fall into the second category, but again, blame none but you. After all, you are the one who will give an account for yourself.
“On these two commandments depend the whole Law and the Prophets.”
[/quote]
What a joke. So I could be gay, work every sunday, practice lust, gluttony, greed, sloth, wrath, envy, and pride, but so long as I believe in Jesus and love my neighbor then I’m going to heaven, is that right?[/quote]
If you love God and your neighbor then it is unlikely you will be practicing all those things you listed. God will be the Judge of that. This really isn’t a difficult concept to grasp, so I must conclude you are being a troll just to argue. Have fun with that. Obviously there is much to discuss on the topic, but you are an unwilling participant in intelligent discourse.
[/quote]
The mark of an ignorant, unreasonable mind is to suggest one can practice lust, gluttony, greed, sloth, wrath, envy, and pride, AND love their neighbor at the same time.
Chris, this is how you know you’re just dealing with a baiter and not someone seriously interested in answers.[/quote]
and not only that…Jesus said loving God above all things and loving your neighbor were the two most important commandments…not the ONLY commandments. Read
[quote]TigerTime wrote:
[quote]Bondslave wrote:
[quote]TigerTime wrote:
[quote]Bondslave wrote:
[quote]TigerTime wrote:
[quote]pat wrote:
[quote]TigerTime wrote:
How noble God is, giving us the freedom to do exactly what he tells us to do…[/quote]
Uh, he doesn’t otherwise there would be no point in any of it. Faith would be ridiculous and random if that were true. You have the freedom to go against God, all you want. You do what ever you want, only by the constraints of your natural condition are you held back. [/quote]
That’s the thing. He gives us the freedom to do whatever we want, but we’ll end up in Hell if we don’t do what he tells us to anyway.[/quote]How dare God ask us to believe in Jesus Christ and love God and our neighbors? What a horrible tyrant demanding all these absurd things of us! /end sarcasm. If you can’t be bothered to do something as simple as believe, don’t go blaming anyone but your prideful self.
[/quote]
… You’re so ridiculously far off the map I’m surprised you managed to even find this thread. There’s a hell of a lot more to being Christian than believing in Jesus and loving your neighbours and you know it. Don’t act stupid.[/quote]
Oh the irony! Well done sir.
"And a lawyer stood up and put Him to the test, saying, “Teacher, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?”
And He said to him, “What is written in the Law? How does it read to you?”
And he answered, “YOU SHALL LOVE THE LORD YOUR GOD WITH ALL YOUR HEART, AND WITH ALL YOUR SOUL, AND WITH ALL YOUR STRENGTH, AND YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOURSELF.”
And He said to him, “You have answered correctly; DO THIS AND YOU WILL LIVE.” Luke 10
If you love God and your neighbor then you inherently do the things God requires of us (as far as imperfect humans can expect to). Or at the very least have a strong desire to do so. I can tell you, none of them feel like a yoke of slavery that I must do in order to recieve eternal life. On the contrary, it brings peace and joy and freedom, and causes personal growth.
Now, I can understand how someone who hates themself, their neighbors, and has no love of God in them, would find loving their neighbor and all the possible things that could go along with that to be a great burden and feel like hundreds of rules are being placed upon them that they must do.
I’m sorry if you fall into the second category, but again, blame none but you. After all, you are the one who will give an account for yourself.
“On these two commandments depend the whole Law and the Prophets.”
[/quote]
What a joke. So I could be gay, work every sunday, practice lust, gluttony, greed, sloth, wrath, envy, and pride, but so long as I believe in Jesus and love my neighbor then I’m going to heaven, is that right?[/quote]
No, that’s not right. You’re missing presumably on purpose, and you know it.
What is it you really want to know? The bible is a big book of books with a lot of sections and purposes, like wise is Christianity. Stealing a pencil is not the same as murder.
BTW, if you really want to be technical, the Sabbath is on Saturday. If you really want to get uber technical, it can move around the week based on certain holidays and such.
[quote]Think tank fish wrote:
Because without Satan “heaven” would be full of a-holes.[/quote]
LOL!
/thread
[quote]pushharder wrote:
[quote]Bondslave wrote:
[quote]TigerTime wrote:
[quote]Bondslave wrote:
[quote]TigerTime wrote:
[quote]Bondslave wrote:
[quote]TigerTime wrote:
[quote]pat wrote:
[quote]TigerTime wrote:
How noble God is, giving us the freedom to do exactly what he tells us to do…[/quote]
Uh, he doesn’t otherwise there would be no point in any of it. Faith would be ridiculous and random if that were true. You have the freedom to go against God, all you want. You do what ever you want, only by the constraints of your natural condition are you held back. [/quote]
That’s the thing. He gives us the freedom to do whatever we want, but we’ll end up in Hell if we don’t do what he tells us to anyway.[/quote]How dare God ask us to believe in Jesus Christ and love God and our neighbors? What a horrible tyrant demanding all these absurd things of us! /end sarcasm. If you can’t be bothered to do something as simple as believe, don’t go blaming anyone but your prideful self.
[/quote]
… You’re so ridiculously far off the map I’m surprised you managed to even find this thread. There’s a hell of a lot more to being Christian than believing in Jesus and loving your neighbours and you know it. Don’t act stupid.[/quote]
Oh the irony! Well done sir.
"And a lawyer stood up and put Him to the test, saying, “Teacher, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?”
And He said to him, “What is written in the Law? How does it read to you?”
And he answered, “YOU SHALL LOVE THE LORD YOUR GOD WITH ALL YOUR HEART, AND WITH ALL YOUR SOUL, AND WITH ALL YOUR STRENGTH, AND YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOURSELF.”
And He said to him, “You have answered correctly; DO THIS AND YOU WILL LIVE.” Luke 10
If you love God and your neighbor then you inherently do the things God requires of us (as far as imperfect humans can expect to). Or at the very least have a strong desire to do so. I can tell you, none of them feel like a yoke of slavery that I must do in order to recieve eternal life. On the contrary, it brings peace and joy and freedom, and causes personal growth.
Now, I can understand how someone who hates themself, their neighbors, and has no love of God in them, would find loving their neighbor and all the possible things that could go along with that to be a great burden and feel like hundreds of rules are being placed upon them that they must do.
I’m sorry if you fall into the second category, but again, blame none but you. After all, you are the one who will give an account for yourself.
“On these two commandments depend the whole Law and the Prophets.”
[/quote]
What a joke. So I could be gay, work every sunday, practice lust, gluttony, greed, sloth, wrath, envy, and pride, but so long as I believe in Jesus and love my neighbor then I’m going to heaven, is that right?[/quote]
If you love God and your neighbor then it is unlikely you will be practicing all those things you listed. God will be the Judge of that. This really isn’t a difficult concept to grasp, so I must conclude you are being a troll just to argue. Have fun with that. Obviously there is much to discuss on the topic, but you are an unwilling participant in intelligent discourse.
[/quote]
The mark of an ignorant, unreasonable mind is to suggest one can practice lust, gluttony, greed, sloth, wrath, envy, and pride, AND love their neighbor at the same time.
Chris, this is how you know you’re just dealing with a baiter and not someone seriously interested in answers.[/quote]
Hey what’s more loving than good old fashion lust! I show you what lovin’ my neighbor really means!
[quote]Cortes wrote:
I’ll give you the benefit of the doubt for one more post.
[/quote]
Yeah, I am getting the impression this is a set up…
[quote]Zooguido wrote:
wow[/quote]
I’m speechless here…
[quote]pushharder wrote:
Chris, this is how you know you’re just dealing with a baiter and not someone seriously interested in answers.[/quote]
Okay…
[quote]Brother Chris wrote:
[quote]TigerTime wrote:
[quote]pat wrote:
[quote]TigerTime wrote:
[quote]pat wrote:
[quote]TigerTime wrote:
How noble God is, giving us the freedom to do exactly what he tells us to do…[/quote]
Uh, he doesn’t otherwise there would be no point in any of it. Faith would be ridiculous and random if that were true. You have the freedom to go against God, all you want. You do what ever you want, only by the constraints of your natural condition are you held back. [/quote]
That’s the thing. He gives us the freedom to do whatever we want, but we’ll end up in Hell if we don’t do what he tells us to anyway.[/quote]
He didn’t say there wouldn’t be consequences for your actions. [/quote]
Then you’ll understand if I’m less than grateful for a gift I’m not allowed to use. Kinda like if your dad said you could stay out after the street lights were on, but if you do I’ll torture you for all eternity.
[/quote]
Man was created for Heaven, not hell. Obeying God allows you function and get to Heaven, not obeying is like not following a map. Not really your dad’s fault that you ended up in the middle of no where when he told you if you follow the map you’ll get to your destination. Sure, sometimes you make a wrong turn, but you can get back on track.
But once you run out gas your stuck where you’re stuck. ← I think I’ll ghost write for Yogi Berra. 
[/quote]
Chris, you are an intelligent man, but I cannot respond to you at this time as I’m already responding to three other people in this thread and I simply cannot keep track of them all if I start taking on more people. Thank you for your time though.
[quote]Bondslave wrote:
[quote]TigerTime wrote:
[quote]Bondslave wrote:
[quote]TigerTime wrote:
[quote]Bondslave wrote:
[quote]TigerTime wrote:
[quote]pat wrote:
[quote]TigerTime wrote:
How noble God is, giving us the freedom to do exactly what he tells us to do…[/quote]
Uh, he doesn’t otherwise there would be no point in any of it. Faith would be ridiculous and random if that were true. You have the freedom to go against God, all you want. You do what ever you want, only by the constraints of your natural condition are you held back. [/quote]
That’s the thing. He gives us the freedom to do whatever we want, but we’ll end up in Hell if we don’t do what he tells us to anyway.[/quote]How dare God ask us to believe in Jesus Christ and love God and our neighbors? What a horrible tyrant demanding all these absurd things of us! /end sarcasm. If you can’t be bothered to do something as simple as believe, don’t go blaming anyone but your prideful self.
[/quote]
… You’re so ridiculously far off the map I’m surprised you managed to even find this thread. There’s a hell of a lot more to being Christian than believing in Jesus and loving your neighbours and you know it. Don’t act stupid.[/quote]
Oh the irony! Well done sir.
"And a lawyer stood up and put Him to the test, saying, “Teacher, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?”
And He said to him, “What is written in the Law? How does it read to you?”
And he answered, “YOU SHALL LOVE THE LORD YOUR GOD WITH ALL YOUR HEART, AND WITH ALL YOUR SOUL, AND WITH ALL YOUR STRENGTH, AND YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOURSELF.”
And He said to him, “You have answered correctly; DO THIS AND YOU WILL LIVE.” Luke 10
If you love God and your neighbor then you inherently do the things God requires of us (as far as imperfect humans can expect to). Or at the very least have a strong desire to do so. I can tell you, none of them feel like a yoke of slavery that I must do in order to recieve eternal life. On the contrary, it brings peace and joy and freedom, and causes personal growth.
Now, I can understand how someone who hates themself, their neighbors, and has no love of God in them, would find loving their neighbor and all the possible things that could go along with that to be a great burden and feel like hundreds of rules are being placed upon them that they must do.
I’m sorry if you fall into the second category, but again, blame none but you. After all, you are the one who will give an account for yourself.
“On these two commandments depend the whole Law and the Prophets.”
[/quote]
What a joke. So I could be gay, work every sunday, practice lust, gluttony, greed, sloth, wrath, envy, and pride, but so long as I believe in Jesus and love my neighbor then I’m going to heaven, is that right?[/quote]
If you love God and your neighbor then it is unlikely you will be practicing all those things you listed. God will be the Judge of that. This really isn’t a difficult concept to grasp, so I must conclude you are being a troll just to argue. Have fun with that. Obviously there is much to discuss on the topic, but you are an unwilling participant in intelligent discourse.
[/quote]
You’re projecting. Unlikely, perhaps, but certainly not implausible. And if it is, then either God doesn’t really care about these things or you were wrong for stating believing in Jesus and loving your neighbor are the sole tickets to Heaven.
I’m hardly a troll. You’re just not making sense.
[quote]Cortes wrote:
[quote]TigerTime wrote:
[quote]Cortes wrote:
[quote]TigerTime wrote:
[quote]Cortes wrote:
[quote]TigerTime wrote:
[quote]pat wrote:
[quote]TigerTime wrote:
How noble God is, giving us the freedom to do exactly what he tells us to do…[/quote]
Uh, he doesn’t otherwise there would be no point in any of it. Faith would be ridiculous and random if that were true. You have the freedom to go against God, all you want. You do what ever you want, only by the constraints of your natural condition are you held back. [/quote]
That’s the thing. He gives us the freedom to do whatever we want, but we’ll end up in Hell if we don’t do what he tells us to anyway.[/quote]
You have the freedom to put your hand on a hot stove, too. [/quote]
That’s a little different. A hot stove directly damages your body, that pain is necessary to learn not do do something so harmful. I see no reason to torture a man for all eternity for being gay, or working on Sunday.[/quote]
No. It is not different. Just like sin, it is what it is. Reality dictates that you CAN put your hand to a hot stove. If you do this, there will be certain consequences that necessarily follow from this action. In exactly the same manner, if you purposefully, knowingly sin, you remove yourself from God. You’re getting hung up on the punishment aspect of Hell, but what Hell is, actually, is the complete removal of oneself from God. The eternal torture, the outer darkness, the wailing and gnashing of teeth, is all incidental. The true punishment is that you will have removed yourself for all eternity from God, from love, warmth, happiness, every good thing you can imagine.
Now, to turn this on its head for a minute, I’ve got a question for you, man, who feel you know better than your creator what is best: What then would be “fair?”
[/quote]
No, they are very different. Burning your hand is tautologically painful, being gay or working on Sunday requires absolutely no pain or suffering unless some sadistic “God” is going to arbitrarily define these things as worth punishment. I mean, what if God decided that wearing shirts made of mixed fibers or eating shellfish was a sin? That would be ridiculous… wouldn’t it?
Your question is incorrect. It isn’t a matter of “what is fair” relative to working on Sunday or being gay. That would be like me asking what is the fair way to treat people who work on Monday and are celibate?[/quote]
If you want to be seen as something other than a troll, then you should understand your obligation to speak clearly. Because right now what it looks like is you are just here to stir up shit.
I’ll give you the benefit of the doubt for one more post.
-
My analogy applies. Action => Consequence. You introduced your idea of “arbitrary punishment” into the argument later, but arbitrariness or the lack of it has nothing whatsoever to do with my simple analogy. So what if it’s temporal and it happens to teach you something? It isn’t my point. My point was that you know what is going to happen if you touch that stove. Little kids even know this, yet they do it anyway. Adults tend to know better, which is one of the benefits of maturity.
-
Are you implying that you know that there is no hidden consequence to homosexual partnerships, or blatantly disobeying the commandment to keep holy the Sabbath day (which is also different from “not working on Sunday”), among others?
-
Your implication of the equivalence of Levitican minutiae is the kind of crap that leads me to believe you’re just trying to stir up shit.
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My question was not “incorrect.” It’s a question, how the hell can it be “incorrect?” It can be misguided, misdirected, misapplied, but not “incorrect.” Aside from that, I said nothing about what was fair “relative to working on Sunday.” You added that. So let’s try again. Assuming there is a God who is not arbitrary, I want to know what you think should be the qualifying and excluding actions that should get us into Heaven. It’s obvious you have an opinion about this, as you think certain things should NOT exclude us from membership into that elite club (you used the words “sadistic” and “arbitrary,” hence, unfair). So, what should the standard be, then?
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My, my. Aren’t you feeling “holier than thou” today. I’ve been nothing but clear on what I’ve been saying. How about I’LL give YOU the benefit of the doubt for one more post to see if you can reconcile the inconsistencies I’m about to point out.
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Are you serious? If one act is tautologically painful, but the other is arbitrarily made painful ex-post facto then they are NOT analogous. That’s the point I’ve been making. There’s a very physical and measurable reason for burning yourself to hurt. There’s just no good reason to make victim-less acts result in eternal torture.
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… What? Are you implying that there’s an immediate causal pain comparable to burning yourself by being gay or working on the Sabbath? I can’t say about being gay, but I’ve gone to work on Sunday and it’s the same thing as working any other day, so the only consequence here seems to be whatever God has planned for after I die.
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So wearing shirts made of mixed fibers and eating shellfish are not sins… Yes or no?
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What you asked was “I’ve got a question for you, man, who feel you know better than your creator what is best: What then would be fair?”. You didn’t qualify this statement and since the rest of that post was your case for the “hot stove” to “being gay/working on the Sabbath” analogy, this is the natural assumption, that is, “what would be the fair way to treat gay people/ people who work on the Sabbath”.
As for your question, I don’t believe there should be any “qualification” for getting into heaven. If there is a God, I would like to think he is not a bitch. I would like to think his favour cannot be bought simply by being like “this” and not like “that”, by rejecting yourself in “this” way and embracing yourself in “that” way. As far as I’m concerned, the gates to both heaven and hell should be open at all times, with the option to freely hop the fence between them. If God has truly given us any freedom, it’s the freedom to judge ourselves and choose between the two.
Heaven, to me, is simply accepting yourself in your entirety. Hell is when you go on splitting yourself, rejecting certain parts for other parts. The most miserable people I know are those who claim to be “religious” for this reason. The most joyous people I know don’t even judge themselves, they simply accept themselves as they are. How can God cast judgment on such a man? How can God allow such a man to be subjugated to eternal torture? I cannot believe in any such God.
[quote]TigerTime wrote:
I cannot believe in any such God.
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Ok.