Why Did God Create......

Off Topic Politics & World Issues
42

[quote]pat wrote:

[quote]TigerTime wrote:

[quote]pat wrote:

[quote]TigerTime wrote:
How noble God is, giving us the freedom to do exactly what he tells us to do…[/quote]

Uh, he doesn’t otherwise there would be no point in any of it. Faith would be ridiculous and random if that were true. You have the freedom to go against God, all you want. You do what ever you want, only by the constraints of your natural condition are you held back. [/quote]

That’s the thing. He gives us the freedom to do whatever we want, but we’ll end up in Hell if we don’t do what he tells us to anyway.[/quote]

He didn’t say there wouldn’t be consequences for your actions. [/quote]

Then you’ll understand if I’m less than grateful for a gift I’m not allowed to use. Kinda like if your dad said you could stay out after the street lights were on, but if you do I’ll torture you for all eternity.

43

[quote]pat wrote:<<< You see this passage as proof of predestination? >>>[/quote]Can you people believe this? Really.

44

[quote]Cortes wrote:

[quote]TigerTime wrote:

[quote]pat wrote:

[quote]TigerTime wrote:
How noble God is, giving us the freedom to do exactly what he tells us to do…[/quote]

Uh, he doesn’t otherwise there would be no point in any of it. Faith would be ridiculous and random if that were true. You have the freedom to go against God, all you want. You do what ever you want, only by the constraints of your natural condition are you held back. [/quote]

That’s the thing. He gives us the freedom to do whatever we want, but we’ll end up in Hell if we don’t do what he tells us to anyway.[/quote]

You have the freedom to put your hand on a hot stove, too. [/quote]

That’s a little different. A hot stove directly damages your body, that pain is necessary to learn not do do something so harmful. I see no reason to torture a man for all eternity for being gay, or working on Sunday.

45

[quote]Tiribulus wrote:

[quote]pat wrote:<<< You see this passage as proof of predestination? >>>[/quote]Can you people believe this? Really.
[/quote]

What are you looking for audience participation? It’s laughable to me that you think St. Paul meant like real slavery. … Really? You take the word ‘slavery’ literally here? Like ‘…I says when it’s quittin’ time in Tara.’ slavery? Oh boy.

46

[quote]pushharder wrote:

[quote]pat wrote:

I don’t why he created the propensity for evil…

[/quote]

There was no original propensity for evil wired into God’s perfect creation.
[/quote]

Big word fail, ‘potential’ or ‘possibility’ are better choices.

47

[quote]TigerTime wrote:

[quote]pat wrote:

[quote]TigerTime wrote:

[quote]pat wrote:

[quote]TigerTime wrote:
How noble God is, giving us the freedom to do exactly what he tells us to do…[/quote]

Uh, he doesn’t otherwise there would be no point in any of it. Faith would be ridiculous and random if that were true. You have the freedom to go against God, all you want. You do what ever you want, only by the constraints of your natural condition are you held back. [/quote]

That’s the thing. He gives us the freedom to do whatever we want, but we’ll end up in Hell if we don’t do what he tells us to anyway.[/quote]

He didn’t say there wouldn’t be consequences for your actions. [/quote]

Then you’ll understand if I’m less than grateful for a gift I’m not allowed to use. Kinda like if your dad said you could stay out after the street lights were on, but if you do I’ll torture you for all eternity.
[/quote]

Well, he never gave you permission he just allowed it. Hey, I am not tickled about the whole ‘evil’ thing either. That’s the second thing I want to solve when I get to heaven, the fist thing I want to do is slap the shit out of Eve.

48

[quote]TigerTime wrote:

[quote]Cortes wrote:

[quote]TigerTime wrote:

[quote]pat wrote:

[quote]TigerTime wrote:
How noble God is, giving us the freedom to do exactly what he tells us to do…[/quote]

Uh, he doesn’t otherwise there would be no point in any of it. Faith would be ridiculous and random if that were true. You have the freedom to go against God, all you want. You do what ever you want, only by the constraints of your natural condition are you held back. [/quote]

That’s the thing. He gives us the freedom to do whatever we want, but we’ll end up in Hell if we don’t do what he tells us to anyway.[/quote]

You have the freedom to put your hand on a hot stove, too. [/quote]

That’s a little different. A hot stove directly damages your body, that pain is necessary to learn not do do something so harmful. I see no reason to torture a man for all eternity for being gay, or working on Sunday.[/quote]

Take a good hard look at what you just wrote…before the whole Gay thing… We learn from the pain of sin too, do we not?

And who says someone is tortured for eternity for being gay or working on sunday? God judges the heart. God knows who he challenge with what and will judge each man on his own accord. We cannot say ‘All these will go to hell or all these will go to heaven’ We can’t and don’t know that. We don’t have that brush to paint with. We can know good from bad, right from wrong, but we can’t judge people over all, we don’t know it all.

49

[quote]pat wrote:<<< What are you looking for audience participation? >>>[/quote]I wasn’t directly addressing predestination at all Pat yet… o nevermind.

50

[quote]Bondslave wrote:

[quote]TigerTime wrote:

[quote]pat wrote:

[quote]TigerTime wrote:
How noble God is, giving us the freedom to do exactly what he tells us to do…[/quote]

Uh, he doesn’t otherwise there would be no point in any of it. Faith would be ridiculous and random if that were true. You have the freedom to go against God, all you want. You do what ever you want, only by the constraints of your natural condition are you held back. [/quote]

That’s the thing. He gives us the freedom to do whatever we want, but we’ll end up in Hell if we don’t do what he tells us to anyway.[/quote]How dare God ask us to believe in Jesus Christ and love God and our neighbors? What a horrible tyrant demanding all these absurd things of us! /end sarcasm. If you can’t be bothered to do something as simple as believe, don’t go blaming anyone but your prideful self.
[/quote]

… You’re so ridiculously far off the map I’m surprised you managed to even find this thread. There’s a hell of a lot more to being Christian than believing in Jesus and loving your neighbours and you know it. Don’t act stupid.

51

[quote]TigerTime wrote:

[quote]Bondslave wrote:

[quote]TigerTime wrote:

[quote]pat wrote:

[quote]TigerTime wrote:
How noble God is, giving us the freedom to do exactly what he tells us to do…[/quote]

Uh, he doesn’t otherwise there would be no point in any of it. Faith would be ridiculous and random if that were true. You have the freedom to go against God, all you want. You do what ever you want, only by the constraints of your natural condition are you held back. [/quote]

That’s the thing. He gives us the freedom to do whatever we want, but we’ll end up in Hell if we don’t do what he tells us to anyway.[/quote]How dare God ask us to believe in Jesus Christ and love God and our neighbors? What a horrible tyrant demanding all these absurd things of us! /end sarcasm. If you can’t be bothered to do something as simple as believe, don’t go blaming anyone but your prideful self.
[/quote]

… You’re so ridiculously far off the map I’m surprised you managed to even find this thread. There’s a hell of a lot more to being Christian than believing in Jesus and loving your neighbours and you know it. Don’t act stupid.[/quote]
Oh the irony! Well done sir.

"And a lawyer stood up and put Him to the test, saying, “Teacher, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?”
And He said to him, “What is written in the Law? How does it read to you?”

And he answered, “YOU SHALL LOVE THE LORD YOUR GOD WITH ALL YOUR HEART, AND WITH ALL YOUR SOUL, AND WITH ALL YOUR STRENGTH, AND YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOURSELF.”

And He said to him, “You have answered correctly; DO THIS AND YOU WILL LIVE.” Luke 10

If you love God and your neighbor then you inherently do the things God requires of us (as far as imperfect humans can expect to). Or at the very least have a strong desire to do so. I can tell you, none of them feel like a yoke of slavery that I must do in order to recieve eternal life. On the contrary, it brings peace and joy and freedom, and causes personal growth.

Now, I can understand how someone who hates themself, their neighbors, and has no love of God in them, would find loving their neighbor and all the possible things that could go along with that to be a great burden and feel like hundreds of rules are being placed upon them that they must do.

I’m sorry if you fall into the second category, but again, blame none but you. After all, you are the one who will give an account for yourself.

“On these two commandments depend the whole Law and the Prophets.”

52

[quote]TigerTime wrote:

[quote]Cortes wrote:

[quote]TigerTime wrote:

[quote]pat wrote:

[quote]TigerTime wrote:
How noble God is, giving us the freedom to do exactly what he tells us to do…[/quote]

Uh, he doesn’t otherwise there would be no point in any of it. Faith would be ridiculous and random if that were true. You have the freedom to go against God, all you want. You do what ever you want, only by the constraints of your natural condition are you held back. [/quote]

That’s the thing. He gives us the freedom to do whatever we want, but we’ll end up in Hell if we don’t do what he tells us to anyway.[/quote]

You have the freedom to put your hand on a hot stove, too. [/quote]

That’s a little different. A hot stove directly damages your body, that pain is necessary to learn not do do something so harmful. I see no reason to torture a man for all eternity for being gay, or working on Sunday.[/quote]

No. It is not different. Just like sin, it is what it is. Reality dictates that you CAN put your hand to a hot stove. If you do this, there will be certain consequences that necessarily follow from this action. In exactly the same manner, if you purposefully, knowingly sin, you remove yourself from God. You’re getting hung up on the punishment aspect of Hell, but what Hell is, actually, is the complete removal of oneself from God. The eternal torture, the outer darkness, the wailing and gnashing of teeth, is all incidental. The true punishment is that you will have removed yourself for all eternity from God, from love, warmth, happiness, every good thing you can imagine.

Now, to turn this on its head for a minute, I’ve got a question for you, man, who feel you know better than your creator what is best: What then would be “fair?”

53

[quote]pat wrote:

[quote]TigerTime wrote:

[quote]Cortes wrote:

[quote]TigerTime wrote:

[quote]pat wrote:

[quote]TigerTime wrote:
How noble God is, giving us the freedom to do exactly what he tells us to do…[/quote]

Uh, he doesn’t otherwise there would be no point in any of it. Faith would be ridiculous and random if that were true. You have the freedom to go against God, all you want. You do what ever you want, only by the constraints of your natural condition are you held back. [/quote]

That’s the thing. He gives us the freedom to do whatever we want, but we’ll end up in Hell if we don’t do what he tells us to anyway.[/quote]

You have the freedom to put your hand on a hot stove, too. [/quote]

That’s a little different. A hot stove directly damages your body, that pain is necessary to learn not do do something so harmful. I see no reason to torture a man for all eternity for being gay, or working on Sunday.[/quote]

Take a good hard look at what you just wrote…before the whole Gay thing… We learn from the pain of sin too, do we not?

And who says someone is tortured for eternity for being gay or working on sunday? God judges the heart. God knows who he challenge with what and will judge each man on his own accord. We cannot say ‘All these will go to hell or all these will go to heaven’ We can’t and don’t know that. We don’t have that brush to paint with. We can know good from bad, right from wrong, but we can’t judge people over all, we don’t know it all.[/quote]

So I can work every Sunday and still go to heaven?

54

[quote]Bondslave wrote:

[quote]TigerTime wrote:

[quote]Bondslave wrote:

[quote]TigerTime wrote:

[quote]pat wrote:

[quote]TigerTime wrote:
How noble God is, giving us the freedom to do exactly what he tells us to do…[/quote]

Uh, he doesn’t otherwise there would be no point in any of it. Faith would be ridiculous and random if that were true. You have the freedom to go against God, all you want. You do what ever you want, only by the constraints of your natural condition are you held back. [/quote]

That’s the thing. He gives us the freedom to do whatever we want, but we’ll end up in Hell if we don’t do what he tells us to anyway.[/quote]How dare God ask us to believe in Jesus Christ and love God and our neighbors? What a horrible tyrant demanding all these absurd things of us! /end sarcasm. If you can’t be bothered to do something as simple as believe, don’t go blaming anyone but your prideful self.
[/quote]

… You’re so ridiculously far off the map I’m surprised you managed to even find this thread. There’s a hell of a lot more to being Christian than believing in Jesus and loving your neighbours and you know it. Don’t act stupid.[/quote]
Oh the irony! Well done sir.

"And a lawyer stood up and put Him to the test, saying, “Teacher, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?”
And He said to him, “What is written in the Law? How does it read to you?”

And he answered, “YOU SHALL LOVE THE LORD YOUR GOD WITH ALL YOUR HEART, AND WITH ALL YOUR SOUL, AND WITH ALL YOUR STRENGTH, AND YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOURSELF.”

And He said to him, “You have answered correctly; DO THIS AND YOU WILL LIVE.” Luke 10

If you love God and your neighbor then you inherently do the things God requires of us (as far as imperfect humans can expect to). Or at the very least have a strong desire to do so. I can tell you, none of them feel like a yoke of slavery that I must do in order to recieve eternal life. On the contrary, it brings peace and joy and freedom, and causes personal growth.

Now, I can understand how someone who hates themself, their neighbors, and has no love of God in them, would find loving their neighbor and all the possible things that could go along with that to be a great burden and feel like hundreds of rules are being placed upon them that they must do.

I’m sorry if you fall into the second category, but again, blame none but you. After all, you are the one who will give an account for yourself.

“On these two commandments depend the whole Law and the Prophets.”

[/quote]

What a joke. So I could be gay, work every sunday, practice lust, gluttony, greed, sloth, wrath, envy, and pride, but so long as I believe in Jesus and love my neighbor then I’m going to heaven, is that right?

55

[quote]Bondslave wrote:

Now, I can understand how someone who hates themself, their neighbors, and has no love of God in them, would find loving their neighbor and all the possible things that could go along with that to be a great burden and feel like hundreds of rules are being placed upon them that they must do.
[/quote]

I may very well be pleased with myself and even my neighbours, though not as likely, and totally dislike the christian god. Or hate myself and god, and love my neighbour. Or love god, but hate myself and my neighbour, which seems to be quite common among christians.

56

[quote]Cortes wrote:

[quote]TigerTime wrote:

[quote]Cortes wrote:

[quote]TigerTime wrote:

[quote]pat wrote:

[quote]TigerTime wrote:
How noble God is, giving us the freedom to do exactly what he tells us to do…[/quote]

Uh, he doesn’t otherwise there would be no point in any of it. Faith would be ridiculous and random if that were true. You have the freedom to go against God, all you want. You do what ever you want, only by the constraints of your natural condition are you held back. [/quote]

That’s the thing. He gives us the freedom to do whatever we want, but we’ll end up in Hell if we don’t do what he tells us to anyway.[/quote]

You have the freedom to put your hand on a hot stove, too. [/quote]

That’s a little different. A hot stove directly damages your body, that pain is necessary to learn not do do something so harmful. I see no reason to torture a man for all eternity for being gay, or working on Sunday.[/quote]

No. It is not different. Just like sin, it is what it is. Reality dictates that you CAN put your hand to a hot stove. If you do this, there will be certain consequences that necessarily follow from this action. In exactly the same manner, if you purposefully, knowingly sin, you remove yourself from God. You’re getting hung up on the punishment aspect of Hell, but what Hell is, actually, is the complete removal of oneself from God. The eternal torture, the outer darkness, the wailing and gnashing of teeth, is all incidental. The true punishment is that you will have removed yourself for all eternity from God, from love, warmth, happiness, every good thing you can imagine.

Now, to turn this on its head for a minute, I’ve got a question for you, man, who feel you know better than your creator what is best: What then would be “fair?”
[/quote]

No, they are very different. Burning your hand is tautologically painful, being gay or working on Sunday requires absolutely no pain or suffering unless some sadistic “God” is going to arbitrarily define these things as worth punishment. I mean, what if God decided that wearing shirts made of mixed fibers or eating shellfish was a sin? That would be ridiculous… wouldn’t it?

Your question is incorrect. It isn’t a matter of “what is fair” relative to working on Sunday or being gay. That would be like me asking what is the fair way to treat people who work on Monday and are celibate?

57

[quote]colt44 wrote:

[quote]Brother Chris wrote:

[quote]colt44 wrote:
so God messed up basically…

and of lucifer who became satan was the originator of sin, then how did he become sinful?[/quote]

I guess you can say that.

He became sinful because he became proud, he put himself above God (not actually). He knew what torment it was to disobey God intuitively, yet still did it. This is because sin is not reasonable, it was illogical for Lucifer to basically create evil and it is still illogical to sin today. [1]

[1] Kreeft, P., Angels and Demons, (SF: Ignatius Press, 1995), p. 64.[/quote]

I don’t understand how something all-powerful, all-knowing, etc. would/could make a mistake?

I thought God made everything to be perfect?[/quote]

Well, since you press forward with the question, I should ask for clarification. What do you mean by mistake?

As well what do you consider perfect?

58

[quote]TigerTime wrote:

[quote]pat wrote:

[quote]TigerTime wrote:
How noble God is, giving us the freedom to do exactly what he tells us to do…[/quote]

Uh, he doesn’t otherwise there would be no point in any of it. Faith would be ridiculous and random if that were true. You have the freedom to go against God, all you want. You do what ever you want, only by the constraints of your natural condition are you held back. [/quote]

That’s the thing. He gives us the freedom to do whatever we want, but we’ll end up in Hell if we don’t do what he tells us to anyway.[/quote]

I’m not following. Are you trying to make a counter point or just stating obvious things?

59

[quote]colt44 wrote:

[quote]pat wrote:

[quote]pushharder wrote:

[quote]colt44 wrote:

While I dont want to debate free will. For arguments sake I will assume there is free will. Still the question remains. Even though Lucifer had free will, there was no such thing as sin or anything related to it to tempt him.
So saying he had free will doesnt do much. [/quote]

Read Isaiah 14 and Ezekiel 28 to get your answers.[/quote]

Good answer Push.
Technically God didn’t create him to be a ‘bad guy’ he just figured out he could be if he wanted to so he decided to be. He apparently was a mega high in the Kingdom, but he thought he could be as much God as God is and wanted to be so he tried to take over…The readings Push recommend explain it better than me…[/quote]

But the only reason man does bad now is because he is tempted by satan. But there was no such thing prior to lucifer, therefore nothing could temp him in the first place.[/quote]

You’re asking for a reason, that would entail us using reason to answer why Lucifer disobeyed and created evil and sin and hell?

Lucifer’s disobedience to God is not reasonable, Lucifer even though the most powerful mind created was unreasonable to disobey. He knew full well the consequences, intuitively. He didn’t have to use a flow chart to figure it out. He knew disobedience = removal from God’s love. Before Lucifer did that, everything was in the presence of God’s love.

You want a reason for his disobedience. Lucifer does not have a valid and sound reason for disobedience, because it would be contradictory. His reason for disobedience is pride, which is invalid and unsound argument.

60

[quote]TigerTime wrote:

[quote]pat wrote:

[quote]TigerTime wrote:

[quote]pat wrote:

[quote]TigerTime wrote:
How noble God is, giving us the freedom to do exactly what he tells us to do…[/quote]

Uh, he doesn’t otherwise there would be no point in any of it. Faith would be ridiculous and random if that were true. You have the freedom to go against God, all you want. You do what ever you want, only by the constraints of your natural condition are you held back. [/quote]

That’s the thing. He gives us the freedom to do whatever we want, but we’ll end up in Hell if we don’t do what he tells us to anyway.[/quote]

He didn’t say there wouldn’t be consequences for your actions. [/quote]

Then you’ll understand if I’m less than grateful for a gift I’m not allowed to use. Kinda like if your dad said you could stay out after the street lights were on, but if you do I’ll torture you for all eternity.
[/quote]

Man was created for Heaven, not hell. Obeying God allows you function and get to Heaven, not obeying is like not following a map. Not really your dad’s fault that you ended up in the middle of no where when he told you if you follow the map you’ll get to your destination. Sure, sometimes you make a wrong turn, but you can get back on track.

But once you run out gas your stuck where you’re stuck. ← I think I’ll ghost write for Yogi Berra. :slight_smile: