Why Did God Create......

Off Topic Politics & World Issues
21

[quote]Brother Chris wrote:
Kind of deep question.

I’ll try and explain simply.

There is eight things humans will do in heaven forever (without being bored) - know and love God, angels, each other, and ourselves - forever we do this, we do this by ‘peeling layer after layer’ like an onion learning more and more deeply about each of the four. Now, angels do the same thing, but in the hierarchy, which is Heaven, they are below man.

Angels have more powerful minds and wills than man (this is compared to the weak mind and will of man on earth, not our regenerated bodies in heaven), but their rank is absolutely vertical and always below man’s rank in Heaven. They were created to serve man and this upset some of the angels (about 1/3 of them), as even though they were created with a more powerful mind and will and they were created before us they were our servants.

Now, Lucifer was the numbero uno angel. Meaning his mind and his will was most powerful, second only to God himself (though a distant second). God created the angel Lucifer to know and love God more deeply and thoroughly than any other creature created. He was one of the angels in the first choir (maybe even made up a choir of just himself) that was filled with fire (this has nothing to do with hell, or the phenomena of fire that we know, this is filled with the passion for God so fierce that it beats the worst kind earthly addictions). His purpose was to know the mind of God.

Simple answer: God created Lucifer to know His mind and to be the highest servant of man.[/quote]

This is a great answer by Brother Chris. I would only add that Lucifer hated even the thought of God creating man because of the rank that man would have in heaven. And he now seeks to destroy man, that is keep him away from God, by any means possible. He does not want man to reach heaven.

22

The short story “murder mysteries” by Niel Gaiman is an interesting take on the subject.

23

Same discussion, slightly different package for the 1000th time.

24

[quote]TigerTime wrote:
How noble God is, giving us the freedom to do exactly what he tells us to do…[/quote]

Uh, he doesn’t otherwise there would be no point in any of it. Faith would be ridiculous and random if that were true. You have the freedom to go against God, all you want. You do what ever you want, only by the constraints of your natural condition are you held back.

25

[quote]pat wrote:

[quote]TigerTime wrote:
How noble God is, giving us the freedom to do exactly what he tells us to do…[/quote]

Uh, he doesn’t otherwise there would be no point in any of it. Faith would be ridiculous and random if that were true. You have the freedom to go against God, all you want. You do what ever you want, only by the constraints of your natural condition are you held back. [/quote]

That’s the thing. He gives us the freedom to do whatever we want, but we’ll end up in Hell if we don’t do what he tells us to anyway.

26

[quote]pushharder wrote:

[quote]colt44 wrote:

While I dont want to debate free will. For arguments sake I will assume there is free will. Still the question remains. Even though Lucifer had free will, there was no such thing as sin or anything related to it to tempt him.
So saying he had free will doesnt do much. [/quote]

Read Isaiah 14 and Ezekiel 28 to get your answers.[/quote]

Good answer Push.
Technically God didn’t create him to be a ‘bad guy’ he just figured out he could be if he wanted to so he decided to be. He apparently was a mega high in the Kingdom, but he thought he could be as much God as God is and wanted to be so he tried to take over…The readings Push recommend explain it better than me…

27

[quote]TigerTime wrote:

[quote]pat wrote:

[quote]TigerTime wrote:
How noble God is, giving us the freedom to do exactly what he tells us to do…[/quote]

Uh, he doesn’t otherwise there would be no point in any of it. Faith would be ridiculous and random if that were true. You have the freedom to go against God, all you want. You do what ever you want, only by the constraints of your natural condition are you held back. [/quote]

That’s the thing. He gives us the freedom to do whatever we want, but we’ll end up in Hell if we don’t do what he tells us to anyway.[/quote]

He didn’t say there wouldn’t be consequences for your actions.

28

[quote]colt44 wrote:

[quote]Jewbacca wrote:

[quote]colt44 wrote:

[quote]Jewbacca wrote:

[quote]colt44 wrote:
so God messed up basically…
[/quote]

Nope. We failed the test.[/quote]

I am not talking about us. My question is about Lucifer. If there was no sin before him, then how can something come from nothing;) and cause someonme to be sinful?[/quote]

Well, it’s about us.

Satan’s job was to tempt us.

G-d created Satan to tempt us to sin.

Now, Satan may (or may not) like his job too much — to the point that he could be logically be seen as “rebelling.”

But Satan is serving the function for which he was created.

Again, Satan’s job was/remains to tempt us and refine us (by freely rejecting him and embracing G-d, rejecting sin and embracing G-d’s desires for us) so that we can be suitable companions with G-d over eternity.[/quote]
Your statement has nothing to do with what I ask…please reread[/quote]

Actually, I have directly answered your question twice now.

Again, you asked: “Why did G-d create Satan?”

Answer: G-d created Satan to tempt us and refine us so that we can be suitable companions with G-d over eternity.

29

[quote]TigerTime wrote:

[quote]pat wrote:

[quote]TigerTime wrote:
How noble God is, giving us the freedom to do exactly what he tells us to do…[/quote]

Uh, he doesn’t otherwise there would be no point in any of it. Faith would be ridiculous and random if that were true. You have the freedom to go against God, all you want. You do what ever you want, only by the constraints of your natural condition are you held back. [/quote]

That’s the thing. He gives us the freedom to do whatever we want, but we’ll end up in Hell if we don’t do what he tells us to anyway.[/quote]

You have the freedom to put your hand on a hot stove, too.

30

[quote]ZEB wrote:

[quote]Brother Chris wrote:
Kind of deep question.

I’ll try and explain simply.

There is eight things humans will do in heaven forever (without being bored) - know and love God, angels, each other, and ourselves - forever we do this, we do this by ‘peeling layer after layer’ like an onion learning more and more deeply about each of the four. Now, angels do the same thing, but in the hierarchy, which is Heaven, they are below man.

Angels have more powerful minds and wills than man (this is compared to the weak mind and will of man on earth, not our regenerated bodies in heaven), but their rank is absolutely vertical and always below man’s rank in Heaven. They were created to serve man and this upset some of the angels (about 1/3 of them), as even though they were created with a more powerful mind and will and they were created before us they were our servants.

Now, Lucifer was the numbero uno angel. Meaning his mind and his will was most powerful, second only to God himself (though a distant second). God created the angel Lucifer to know and love God more deeply and thoroughly than any other creature created. He was one of the angels in the first choir (maybe even made up a choir of just himself) that was filled with fire (this has nothing to do with hell, or the phenomena of fire that we know, this is filled with the passion for God so fierce that it beats the worst kind earthly addictions). His purpose was to know the mind of God.

Simple answer: God created Lucifer to know His mind and to be the highest servant of man.[/quote]

This is a great answer by Brother Chris. I would only add that Lucifer hated even the thought of God creating man because of the rank that man would have in heaven. And he now seeks to destroy man, that is keep him away from God, by any means possible. He does not want man to reach heaven. [/quote]

No, it doesnt answer the question.

31

[quote]TigerTime wrote:
How noble God is, giving us the freedom to do exactly what he tells us to do…[/quote]OUTSTANDING!!! That is EXACTLY what He has done in the person and work of Jesus Christ. Freedom from the law of sin and death and slavery to righteousness in Him. True freedom indeed. That’s a serious statement BTW.

32

[quote]pat wrote:

[quote]pushharder wrote:

[quote]colt44 wrote:

While I dont want to debate free will. For arguments sake I will assume there is free will. Still the question remains. Even though Lucifer had free will, there was no such thing as sin or anything related to it to tempt him.
So saying he had free will doesnt do much. [/quote]

Read Isaiah 14 and Ezekiel 28 to get your answers.[/quote]

Good answer Push.
Technically God didn’t create him to be a ‘bad guy’ he just figured out he could be if he wanted to so he decided to be. He apparently was a mega high in the Kingdom, but he thought he could be as much God as God is and wanted to be so he tried to take over…The readings Push recommend explain it better than me…[/quote]

But the only reason man does bad now is because he is tempted by satan. But there was no such thing prior to lucifer, therefore nothing could temp him in the first place.

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[quote]HoustonGuy wrote:<<< Free will is one of the key doctrines of religion. >>>[/quote]It is isn’t it? LOL!

34

[quote]Tiribulus wrote:

[quote]TigerTime wrote:
How noble God is, giving us the freedom to do exactly what he tells us to do…[/quote]OUTSTANDING!!! That is EXACTLY what He has done in the person and work of Jesus Christ. Freedom from the law of sin and death and slavery to righteousness in Him. True freedom indeed. That’s a serious statement BTW.
[/quote]

No, it’s not. God did not put Christ on the cross for the sake of all men that he already predestined to go to heaven. It’s just plain absurd thought processes. Predestination makes faith and scripture pointless.

We have the freedom to choose or reject God by our own will. We are not compelled to love him or hate him against our will.

I will always call out the lie of predestination, sorry I won’t ever let this represent Christianity because it’s false and it doesn’t.

35

[quote]colt44 wrote:

[quote]ZEB wrote:

[quote]Brother Chris wrote:
Kind of deep question.

I’ll try and explain simply.

There is eight things humans will do in heaven forever (without being bored) - know and love God, angels, each other, and ourselves - forever we do this, we do this by ‘peeling layer after layer’ like an onion learning more and more deeply about each of the four. Now, angels do the same thing, but in the hierarchy, which is Heaven, they are below man.

Angels have more powerful minds and wills than man (this is compared to the weak mind and will of man on earth, not our regenerated bodies in heaven), but their rank is absolutely vertical and always below man’s rank in Heaven. They were created to serve man and this upset some of the angels (about 1/3 of them), as even though they were created with a more powerful mind and will and they were created before us they were our servants.

Now, Lucifer was the numbero uno angel. Meaning his mind and his will was most powerful, second only to God himself (though a distant second). God created the angel Lucifer to know and love God more deeply and thoroughly than any other creature created. He was one of the angels in the first choir (maybe even made up a choir of just himself) that was filled with fire (this has nothing to do with hell, or the phenomena of fire that we know, this is filled with the passion for God so fierce that it beats the worst kind earthly addictions). His purpose was to know the mind of God.

Simple answer: God created Lucifer to know His mind and to be the highest servant of man.[/quote]

This is a great answer by Brother Chris. I would only add that Lucifer hated even the thought of God creating man because of the rank that man would have in heaven. And he now seeks to destroy man, that is keep him away from God, by any means possible. He does not want man to reach heaven. [/quote]

No, it doesnt answer the question.[/quote]

I don’t why he created the propensity for evil…I have a bone to pick with him about that…

36

[quote]colt44 wrote:

[quote]pat wrote:

[quote]pushharder wrote:

[quote]colt44 wrote:

While I dont want to debate free will. For arguments sake I will assume there is free will. Still the question remains. Even though Lucifer had free will, there was no such thing as sin or anything related to it to tempt him.
So saying he had free will doesnt do much. [/quote]

Read Isaiah 14 and Ezekiel 28 to get your answers.[/quote]

Good answer Push.
Technically God didn’t create him to be a ‘bad guy’ he just figured out he could be if he wanted to so he decided to be. He apparently was a mega high in the Kingdom, but he thought he could be as much God as God is and wanted to be so he tried to take over…The readings Push recommend explain it better than me…[/quote]

But the only reason man does bad now is because he is tempted by satan. But there was no such thing prior to lucifer, therefore nothing could temp him in the first place.[/quote]

lucifer been around a long time…temptation isn’t the ‘only reason’ man does evil. Man chooses to do evil when he could have chosen otherwise. Satan can be told ‘no’ just as God can be. If man doesn’t choose the evil, but does something wrong, he is not culpable…In other words if you are made to do something bad, it’s not your fault. If you choose to do something bad, then it is your fault. It’s the freewill of man that makes it a sin, not just the bad action.

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[quote]pat wrote:<<< I will always call out the lie of predestination, >>>[/quote]Apparently even when it’s not even under discussion. Go get em tiger!!! Romans 6:15-23 [quote]<<< 15-What then? Are we to sin because we are not under law but under grace? By no means! 16-Do you not know that if you present yourselves to anyone as obedient slaves,c you are slaves of the one whom you obey, either of sin, which leads to death, or of obedience, which leads to righteousness? 17-But thanks be to God, that you who were once slaves of sin have become obedient from the heart to the standard of teaching to which you were committed, 18-and, having been set free from sin, have become slaves of righteousness. 19-I am speaking in human terms, because of your natural limitations. For just as you once presented your members as slaves to impurity and to lawlessness leading to more lawlessness, so now present your members as slaves to righteousness leading to sanctification.
20-For when you were slaves of sin, you were free in regard to righteousness. 21-But what fruit were you getting at that time from the things of which you are now ashamed? For the end of those things is death. 22-But now that you have been set free from sin and have become slaves of God, the fruit you get leads to sanctification and its end, eternal life. 23-For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord. >>>[/quote] How I do thank Him and praise Him for this. I am His willing slave and am thereby free indeed. Predestination wasn’t even the main focus of Calvin himself by a very long shot. Yer gittin a bit obsessive there Patrick ol buddy. I’ll wait a bit longer before declaring why I believe Satan was created. Then you can pounce on me again. I’ll be reclining with my sooper soverign Patrick proof reformation armor on so I’ll be ready. =]

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[quote]Tiribulus wrote:

[quote]pat wrote:<<< I will always call out the lie of predestination, >>>[/quote]Apparently even when it’s not even under discussion. Go get em tiger!!! Romans 6:15-23 [quote]<<< 15-What then? Are we to sin because we are not under law but under grace? By no means! 16-Do you not know that if you present yourselves to anyone as obedient slaves,c you are slaves of the one whom you obey, either of sin, which leads to death, or of obedience, which leads to righteousness? 17-But thanks be to God, that you who were once slaves of sin have become obedient from the heart to the standard of teaching to which you were committed, 18-and, having been set free from sin, have become slaves of righteousness. 19-I am speaking in human terms, because of your natural limitations. For just as you once presented your members as slaves to impurity and to lawlessness leading to more lawlessness, so now present your members as slaves to righteousness leading to sanctification.
20-For when you were slaves of sin, you were free in regard to righteousness. 21-But what fruit were you getting at that time from the things of which you are now ashamed? For the end of those things is death. 22-But now that you have been set free from sin and have become slaves of God, the fruit you get leads to sanctification and its end, eternal life. 23-For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord. >>>[/quote] How I do thank Him and praise Him for this. I am His willing slave and am thereby free indeed. Predestination wasn’t even the main focus of Calvin himself by a very long shot. Yer gittin a bit obsessive there Patrick ol buddy. I’ll wait a bit longer before declaring why I believe Satan was created. Then you can pounce on me again. I’ll be reclining with my sooper soverign Patrick proof reformation armor on so I’ll be ready. =][/quote]

You see this passage as proof of predestination? Really? Gee and all that time I thought he was talking about all those who repented became baptized and followed Christ versus their lives prior to that. Silly me…

If predestination were true this passage along with most of scripture would be utterly meaningless. How you have been blinded to this truth I don’t know.
Slaves can throw rocks in to the cotton gin too, they don’t have to follow the rules.

Don’t forget Rm 5:24, or Rm 10:13, or Rm 10:20, or 1Cor 3:13, or Eph 2:8… Don’t throw out the baby with the bath water, there is more there.

Man

40

[quote]TigerTime wrote:

[quote]pat wrote:

[quote]TigerTime wrote:
How noble God is, giving us the freedom to do exactly what he tells us to do…[/quote]

Uh, he doesn’t otherwise there would be no point in any of it. Faith would be ridiculous and random if that were true. You have the freedom to go against God, all you want. You do what ever you want, only by the constraints of your natural condition are you held back. [/quote]

That’s the thing. He gives us the freedom to do whatever we want, but we’ll end up in Hell if we don’t do what he tells us to anyway.[/quote]How dare God ask us to believe in Jesus Christ and love God and our neighbors? What a horrible tyrant demanding all these absurd things of us! /end sarcasm. If you can’t be bothered to do something as simple as believe, don’t go blaming anyone but your prideful self.